The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Like the maximum wage in the Football League from 1888 to 1961.
     
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  2. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Or rigged for actual sporting merit -- as in, better coaching, better scouting, and better youth development allowing a club to build a stronger squad with the same financial resources.
     
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  3. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Why are we pretending that money doesn't buy success in American sports leagues? The Yankees aren't the most successful team in MLB history because they drafted well and made shrewd, Sabrmetric style free agent acquisitions.
     
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  4. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLB is also the only major US league that allows completely unlimited spending.
     
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    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    This is true, but it's not as though other sports haven't found ways to max out their rosters within the cap, either: Golden State being one example. The Cowboys in the 90s were similar: clearly the teams are providing something besides just salary to attract the league's best players.

    I would argue that the Patriots are another, by virtue of the fact that Tom Brady never demanded the salary he is worth, meaning they were never burdened by the cap, like, say, the Colts were. I know the mythos is that they're a rotating cast of journeymen, but that's disingenuous.
     
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    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Admittedly, it's not a permanent state: the cap will eventually catch up, but I don't really see how that's demonstrably different than, say, how the Marlins won the World Series. Stacking the roster for a championship, tearing down and rebuilding afterwards.
     
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  7. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The pro/rel crowd will tell you they are actually big clubs and history and etc ...

    Certainly ... the difference is the absolute miracle that was VS you've had the Astros and Royals both in the last 5yrs and they both were remarkable and insane underdog stories. When was the last time Leicester happened before Leicester? When is that going to happen again?

    Leicester's story also rides the back of billionaire investment and spending the likes they'd never seen before. But nobody wants to mention that part of it.

    Pro/Rel doesn't stop this. See: Glazers/ManU

    Our sports have actually made strides to combat this (sorry Wayne, you couldn't pocket the luxury tax anymore, actually have to spend it on predetermined categories or YOU owe).

    What about Ashley at Newcastle? A certain family with Blackburn? Blackpool?

    It isn't inherent to our system ... it's inherent to shitty people that buy sports clubs.

    Every single season a fan of a major league sports team (or any other division) can look to "we going to pull a Twins/Braves this year?" "Are we this years Astros?" etc etc. What do Bolton fans have to look forward to this year or anytime in the relevant future?

    The CFL is actually more than niche. The XLeague in Japan is quite popular as well (and it's growing quite steadily). Germany I'd say it's above niche as well.

    Of all major sports, sure it's lowest globally on the ladder (probably higher than cricket though) but I really don't think people grasp the popularity it actually does have outside of the US.

    VS rigged to feed a handful of teams.

    Something about only wanting to talk about one side of the pro/rel equation ...

    Ask Cabrera how he feels about consequence of failure this morning.

    .... the Yankees buy. Sure, they get a Jeter or Bernie Williams RANDOMLY ... but they buy.
     
  8. In the amateur days of Dutch football, some rich supporters of clubs "employed" players for jobs they never fullfilled at all to keep them aboard.
     
  9. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What does that mean?
     
  10. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Man U never finished at the bottom of the league as a result. They did it knowing there were consequences.
     
  11. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I did say "almost." ;)

    I almost typed "outside of North America" because the NFL has quite a following in Mexico along with the CFL and certainly NFL Europe managed to plant roots in Germany.

    When we were in Italy over 10 years ago, I met a guy in Bologna who played for a semi-pro American football team. He was passionate about the sport and tried to convince my wife and I to divert our then grade school-aged son away from soccer (he was kicking the ball around with some kind and indulgent college students) and towards Am. football which he insisted is the superior sport.

    No way it's higher than cricket. The subcontinent alone probably has more cricket fans than there are American football fans.

    And while "niche" may be overdoing it, there's not a single country outside of the USA where it's the #1 sport.
     
  12. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Leicester story is a reminder that no league today operates in a vacuum. While LC is/was a small club relative to the rest of Prem, relative to the rest of world football they're a heavy hitter.
     
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  13. Roger Allaway

    Roger Allaway Member+

    Apr 22, 2009
    Warminster, Pa.
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sounds like Angelo Cataldi's campaign to get Italians to renounce calcio may actually have had some successes. Poor guys.
     
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  14. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There are 104 Full and Associate International Cricket Council members.

    upload_2019-8-14_10-46-11.png

    Red = 12 Full Members
    India
    Pakistan
    Sri Lanka
    Bangladesh
    Afghanistan
    Australia
    New Zealand
    South Africa
    Zimbabwe (suspended)
    England
    Ireland
    West Indies (comprised of 16 countries)
     
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  15. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Dude was with half a dozen friends who were playing pickup soccer in the plaza, and they all seemed to tolerate his spiel but he clearly wasn't winning the battle. :)
     
  16. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was speaking to that action, by owners, not being inherent to our structure. It happens in pro/rel structures as well (and to some of the largest clubs in any sport globally). I read it as you implying it happened here because there's "no penalty" for doing so (IE- our structure).

    Yeah there's actually a wide array of "university" or school type programs around the world.

    For cricket I just meant with global awareness/etc. Yes, there are a TON of fans/people that love it and hold it as #1. However, it is HIGHLY focused in a few countries (much like American Football). The difference in the sports I see, is that the proliferation of the sport for American football exists in a bevy of countries in varying degrees ... I don't see that with cricket.

    https://ifaf.org/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Federation_of_American_Football
    (103 members as of 2018 with a much larger global spread)

    Japan plays high school football.
    Europe has a "superbowl" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurobowl

    I don't see the infiltration of the sport across the levels I do with American Football.
     
  17. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Since I had brought up Gibraltar a few days ago, I thought this was relevant: the Gibraltar FA has scrapped pro/rel, combining the two divisions into a single 16-team division and also maintaining a separate development league.

    RESTRUCTURING OF THE DOMESTIC MEN’S SENIOR LEAGUE

    I know some people involved with with Magpies, who were in the Second Division until this move which I guess was announced a couple of weeks ago.
     
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  18. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Have they included Tulsa Athletic?
     
  19. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I would think cricket participation is as popular in Holland and Denmark as football is in Germany and Spain.
     
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  20. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Behave yourself.

    To be clear, I don't think we can extrapolate much of anything from this--Gibraltar is tiny in both geography and population. No "lessons" for US Soccer...but perhaps a reminder that in the end the league structure should serve the needs of the sport not the other way around.
     
  21. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    As we discussed a while back, San Marino, which is almost exactly the same size, also is a single division.

    It was trotted out as an example of why FIFA isn't going to force the US implement pro/rel.

    Not saying that FIFA is going to do that, but that's not exactly a compelling argument.
     
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  22. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But that's not money buying success, is it? In the last decade or so, the NBA has had the phenomenon of big stars accepting much less money than they are worth in order to form superteams. But it's not because those teams have money to spend, it's more because those teams have players that other players are willing to take a pay cut to play alongside. The same is arguably true of the Patriots.

    Dynasties happen in salary capped leagues, but rarely last longer than a few years.
     
  23. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe he wasn't coasting hard enough.
     
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  24. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The important thing here is: if you only have 16 clubs that have the wherewithal to play in a national league (that's essentially all clubs in Gibraltar because there is no travel), there's no reason to artificially split them into two divisions.

    That was also the case in the US in 1996. The same argument can still be made as long as it remains possible to accommodate all the D1-capable clubs in one league.

    Pro/rel for the sake of pro/rel creates absurd situations like Qatar, where there are only 17 clubs in the "pyramid", most of them are in the top division, and the second division contains just five independent clubs eligible for promotion.
     
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  25. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    They're offering something to attract these stars, though. Whether that's a ring or sponsorships or whatever. The players felt they would be sufficiently compensated for taking less than their worth.

    Golden State's payroll was also the second highest last year, so there's still the fact that they're spending more than most everyone else.
     

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