The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's interesting that the best paid team in the world are based in what is often regarded as a minor league market, the 43rd biggest MSA and 45th biggest media market. They didn't even have a team in the original NASL.
     
  2. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Damn, Rangers never really fully recovered, did they?

    I assume the gap was much narrower before they get sent down a few years back.
     
  3. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    bigredfutbol repped this.
  4. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Rangers went bankrupt. They weren’t sent down but the replacement team started at what was then the lowest level of the professional pyramid in Scotland.
     
  5. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nope. Never happens in pro/rel.
     
  6. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Rangers are at it again. They lost more in 2017/18 than the rest of the league combined.

    They admitted this in a press release published during their game against third place Kilmarnock.
     
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  7. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    What's puzzling about the difference in Scotland is the revenue gap, in £102m to 33m. The report looks at the last six years, and during that time the defacto CL apprearances have meant GBP 17m per season. Rangers, who appear to be heading into the Europa League defacto role, bring in £4m for that, so 13m gap. Still, outside of that it still means Celtic have found £54m a year that Rangers cannot.
    Rangers season ticket revenue is pretty much maxed out, as is overall ticket revenue, £372 charged and 43,000 sold. They seat 50k max, and average just a bit over 49k. What is relevant to this discussion is that as bad as the revenue comparison is for Rangers v Celtic, Celtic v everyone else in the SPL is so much more bleak. Rangers are expected. Celtic fans take pride in winning a league in which their closest competitor operates on a third of their revenue, the second richest competitor trails by a factor of 6 and after that it gets quite ugly for the rest of the SPL, with clubs looking at competing with Celtic with 10x their own revenue, and others dreaming of tripling their own revenue and getting up to that level.
    I guess pro-rel advocates would say that at least the rest of the league gets to play for SPL survival each year, but backing Ross County for the title is about like rooting for the chicken to win at KFC.
     
  8. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Rangers have spent around £20m on players since returning to Scotland’s top flight, but have recouped just 2.5m in player sales, resulting in a net spend of £17.5. In the same time, Celtic, who have won six consecutive trophies and seven consecutive league titles, spend more but sold far more, with a net spend of £9.7m."

    Also, 70% of Rangers revenue comes from matchday sales compared to 4% at Premier League Bournemouth.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeme...nounce-14m-loss-as-they-were-playing-a-match/
     
  9. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, poor wording on my part--I remembered it was financial but couldn't remember if it was bankruptcy or some "irregularity."
     
  10. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member

    Business Metrics SC
    Apr 26, 2012
    I think all the open pyramid folks have said repeatedly that teams fail all the time in systems with pro/rel.

    The difference is, someone can buy the intellectual property, and start investing to get back to the first division and make it based on how their investment plays out on the field.

    Let's say the most popular American soccer team is mismanaged to the point where the teams they've been giving the stinkeye to for a century decide they need to start at the lowest professional division - we'll call them the Newark Thermos. They can never get out of USL-2/NPSL/NISA/UPSL no matter how well they parlay that gate money into on field execution.

    I don't thin anyone is saying it doesn't cost money to get into a 1st division. But our soccer would be better if that $200 million were able to be put into on field product, not the shareholders in the company that owns the marketing rights to the most profitable entity in CONCACAF - The Mexican National Team :)
     
  11. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Can we also start admitting that the owners who put this $200M in don't just lose it? By buying in they get access to resources that they don't have, things like the TV contracts, Adidas sponsorships, the bargaining power of the whole league and, oh yeah, somebody else to pay their player salaries. Its not like they pay the $200M and get $0 value out of it, what they get back is a good portion (if not more) of that $200M going back into their club.
     
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  12. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member

    Business Metrics SC
    Apr 26, 2012
    I'm sure having shares in SUM is great. It still feels a little pyramidesque, not sure investor/operator 28 is going to get out of it what investor/operator 18 got if they cap it at 30.

    I'd just prefer a system like the rest of the world uses if we're going to compete with the rest of the world.
     
  13. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They won't.

    On the field? We're not going to, not in a meaningful way. We are light-years away from the CCL being anywhere in the same realm as the UEFO or CONMEBOL versions. MLS will live or die based on the league competition, not how it competes against the rest of the world.

    Off the field, that may be different. When competing for players, coaches, ad dollars, etc.they are in competition with the rest of the world. But I'm not convinced the single-entity model is having a negative affect on that.
     
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  14. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Two things:

    1) The San Jose Earthquakes were revived with new ownership and the same intellectual property. A NPSL team eventually appeared with the Miami Fusion name; presumably if someone was interested in restarting at professional level with the same name they could have. Chivas USA was a tainted brand that no one wanted to revive.

    2) To the extent that the leagues own any of the intellectual property, it's not an intrinsic characteristic of closed leagues. It's a condition of membership in specific leagues (see the most recent NASL).
     
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  15. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How many owners have actually pumped $200 million into a team?
     
  16. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member

    Business Metrics SC
    Apr 26, 2012
    Summertime, and the googling is easy....

    Abramovich has spent almost £900 million on Chelsea since buying the club for £140 million in 2003 and would be guaranteed a huge return on his investment should he choose to sell
     
  17. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Naah!
     
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  18. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yep, there's Chelsea, Man City and ....
     
  19. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member

    Business Metrics SC
    Apr 26, 2012
    Have fun folks, I got a weekend of popcorn ready to watch heads explode over on the MLS News thread as a result of the DRC ruling MLS stole money that was owed to Yedlin's youth team. Ta...
     
  20. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Technically it has the same ownership, it's just under new management. I really don't want to go into the lifecycle of an MLS team again.

    To use @USRufnex terms, this is more like a tribute band than a rebirth. Rangers died, were reborn, moved back up from the bottom of the pyramid and now are setting themselves up to go bankrupt again. The great circle of life continues.

    Fusion 2.0 never had the chance to leave South Florida.
     
  21. DanGerman

    DanGerman Member+

    Aug 28, 2014
    New York City
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I hardly think 100k possibly owed to crossfire is going to explode any heads since now MLS has decided to get into the solidarity payments business. You realize they're the ones who'll benefit the most and program's like crossfit will be most hurt since they'll get less and less of yedlin type players. MLS is going to drop territory restrictions soon so top players will have their pick of pro youth programs going forward.
     
  22. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    Ex-pat in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    They cheated on their taxes and wound up owing the Inland Revenue a huge amount of money. A new owner came in and looked to have bailed them out but it then transpired that he'd secured financing by borrowing against future season ticket sales.

    So both statements are true: they went bankrupt and in part it was due to some irregularities.
     
  23. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    Ex-pat in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I'm not sure that's an accurate characterization of what FIFA said. MLS didn't steal the money. USSF was actively refusing to participate at the time.

    What FIFA determined was that Spurs were off the hook because they acted in good faith having been informed that American teams were not participating. As a result, MLS received the entire transfer fee.

    This effectively means that MLS and Seattle got the $100k that Crossfire would be owed under the mechanism. But stealing is a bit strong.

    Ultimately, this is excellent news as it should mean that any and all clubs will have an interest in scouting and finding youth. With that said, in my personal opinion, if such a player had to pay to play for such a team, the parents should be compensated.

    I wonder if FIFA's findings would have been different had Yedlin not been on a scholarship with Crossfire?
     
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  24. srlwizardsfan

    srlwizardsfan Member

    Sporting Kansas City
    Jan 9, 2008
    Springfield, MO
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i don't know much about how this works but does emerald city fc (04-06) and northwest nationals (06-08) and Seattle Sounders youth team (10-11) {other youth teams yedlin played for} get a portion of this money or only crossfire?
     
  25. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    Ex-pat in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Under the mechanism, any team that contributed to his training gets a percentage of the transfer fee based on his tenure with them.
     

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