The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. But, but England fans are hopefull, no pretty confident to beat the Orange Lions coming thursday.
     
  2. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #21527 jaykoz3, Jun 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
    Should be pointed out again that Ledezma is a product of Real Salt Lake's Academy...........an Academy of a closed league team........as were Timothy Weah, Zack Steffen, Weston McKennie, Chris Richards, Tyler Adams, Sebastian Soto, Erik Palmer-Brown, CJ Dos Santos, Mark McKenzie, Matt Real, Gianlucca Busio, Paxton Pomykal, Aboubacar Keita, Will Trapp, Gyassi Zardes, Chris Gloster, etc...
     
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  3. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One thought on EPB and pressure in Europe vs MLS: perhaps there is more pressure within a squad in Europe, because starters have to fight harder to keep their spots when there is always someone on the bench who is of similar ability. When resources are relatively equal, and the best players in the league are distributed across all the clubs, the starters' places tend to be more secure. I don't think pro/rel directly drives this pressure, but club stratification does. (Of course, we've also discussed the negatives of stratification.) The talent gap within a MLS squad is similar to the talent gap between the top and bottom clubs in a more typical league.

    Of course, which model is better for development depends very much on the player. Some players get complacent when they have a secure place in the lineup, and develop best when they have to fight to keep their place. Others benefit from staying in MLS and getting consistent playing time.
     
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  4. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And don't forget that drinking was frowned upon in most of the US for many decades, and still is to a certain extent.

    While in Europe, pubs, bars and social clubs were at the heart of the community, the pioneers had churches and schools.
     
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  5. ThreeApples

    ThreeApples Member+

    Jul 28, 1999
    Smurf Village
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There's also the matter of how public high school education developed in this country. The instutution of a 12-year free public educational program that most everybody attended was strongly established between the World Wars. High schools existed before then, but they were usually restricted to an elite few, and were rare in the hinterlands. At that time many people lived in towns that were 50-75 years old or younger. Building a high school meant there was a stable, state-funded, quasi-universal (unfortunately racially segregated in many places) focus for the community in places that didn't have venerable traditions dating back centuries. Add in that it was an era when spectator sports were booming, and that there was an existing model of collegiate sports that high schools could copy for a younger cohort, and we got an entrenched system of high school sports.
     
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  6. We made amovie about that:
     
  7. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah but we're told we can't, won't develop youth with a closed system. That the crucible of pro/rel is what forges the young metal into the mighty sword .... or some shit.

    Except maybe that's just not the case.
     
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  8. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member

    Business Metrics SC
    Apr 26, 2012
    The closed league will be blamed if, should the senior team made up of the 2015/2017/2019 U20 QF teams fail to qualify, go out in the group stage, drop
    the gold cup, etc. I'm hopeful that I see enough names on those rosters plying their trade in better federations that we're moving in the right direction, but all it will take is a couple of Bradley style blue-pillings to pull them back to MLS and that hope goes out the window.
     
  9. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well if they triple the salary budget as part of the CBA we'll have a better comparison.
     
  10. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member

    Business Metrics SC
    Apr 26, 2012
    Generally those results don't hurt that argument because the open pyramid folks understand U20 results don't usually track to WC results - Ghana and other African nations are aren't strangers to the U20 semis for example yet rarely make the quarters in the senior competition.
     
  11. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member

    Business Metrics SC
    Apr 26, 2012
    How so? My thoughts are that tripling the salary cap will just result in the investor/operators being able to bring in a better quality conmebol/uefa player - journeymen vs outright couldn't cut its. That might have a marginal effect on the American players that choose to stay/can't cut it in uefa getting minutes against better players but not nearly as much as going where they have to compete 24/7 to just be in the 18 man game day selection.
     
  12. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    Ex-pat in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I know it sounds counterintuitive but I wouldn't hold up WC results as the key metric of a successful youth system.

    Argentina boasts a number of the World's best players, yet they've only got beyond the QFs once in the last 20 years.

    Those African nations have routinely produced players that play in the best leagues in the world and in recent memory, have had top players at elite clubs.

    The US U20 performance at least suggests movement in the right direction.
     
  13. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member

    Business Metrics SC
    Apr 26, 2012
    I agree. Given that Ramos has been at the helm since 2011 I'm encouraged that we might have a viable natl team manager (scout, implement a style/adjust according to who he has) once his brother ascends to a C level position with USSF :)
     
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  14. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #21539 Paul Berry, Jun 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2019
    Raising the quality of soccer in general will increase the level of competition meaning domestic players will have to fight for their places. After all isn't that supposed to be one the benefits of moving to Europe?

    And MLS teams have already proven their commitment to the HGP program, just look around the league.

    No they don't track to WC results but the consistently good performances in international youth competitions represent tremendous progress.

    I mean even twelve years ago American players weren't turning pro until they were 22 or 23 years old but the majority of the current squad joined the MLS program in their early or mid-teens.

    And there is more diversity, with 9 of the starters coming from black or Hispanic backgrounds, defying the claim that soccer is a white middle-class kid's game.

    And not the usual underdog approach in this tournament. The USA players looked comfortable, like they belonged on the same pitch as France, even though France looked the better team.
     
  15. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What's impressed me so far is that they have learned from the Ukraine game. The fact that they were largely outplayed vs. France but didn't fall apart, and then found a way to win--that's what contenders do.
     
  16. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    co-signed
     
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  17. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    HOLY SHIT THIS

    SO MUCH THIS

    ALL OF THIS

    THIS
     
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  18. Has this ever happened in the USA?
    There was much talk in here about tax payers money being extorted by mls club owners from city councils for their stadium.
    Feyenoord has landed for their to be built new stadium a 24.5 million contribution by a Rotterdam charity fund in exchange for 3880 seats to be distributed under Rotterdam kids each match.
     
  19. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't know about an agreement of TIX = MONEY from fund for stadium

    However, sports teams here have LONG given loads of tickets to youth/charity programs of all natures.
     
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  20. I just read in the Women world cup thread about the CBA and the way the USA national team is formed.
    It's plain stupid and completely flies in the face of a merit driven composition of a selection.
     
  21. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Oh, come on now, the Dutch invented capitalism, don't act shocked when you see it weaponized.
     
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  22. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Amateur sports leagues in the US exist all over the place, but they tend to be self-organized and don't answer to any governing body. For example, here in DC there are a number of self-organized sports leagues that play during the summer on the playing fields around the National Mall. Everything from soccer, volleyball, baseball, rugby, and even cricket.

    For most of them, the only requirement to join the league is to form a team and pay the registration fee. Some are limited to teams associated with a particular group or organization, such as the baseball league formed by teams of Congressional staffers every year. This is replicated in cities and towns all over the country.

    So, long story short, if you're an adult who wants to play soccer as part of an organized team in an organized league, you have plenty of options in the US. I'm not sure there's an equivalent culture of self-organization in Europe, but I could be wrong.
     
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  23. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #21548 Paul Berry, Jun 6, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
    I'll bite. Which thread?

    So there's a chance you're certain?

    Edited: according to the "FIFA big count", about 1 in 6 players in the US are registered compared to 1 in 3 in England.
     
  24. Potowmack

    Potowmack Member+

    Apr 2, 2010
    Washington, DC
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Certainly possibly maybe.

    Yeah, I don't see any point in registering with FIFA or the national federation if you're just a recreational player. Why bother?
     
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  25. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Eligibility for county, regional and national cup competitions is a big driver.
     
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