The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #19926 Elninho, Apr 11, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
    Does the pressure matter if the player never actually has to perform under pressure, for the simple reason that he's not playing?

    Empirically, relegation-threatened teams become extremely risk-averse. As soon as there's a hint that they're going to be in a relegation fight, they tend to stop playing the young players, unless the young players are so obviously superior to their teammates that any idiot can see they have to start. (When the handful of young players who get minutes on relegation-threatened teams all tend to be the best player on their team by a mile, you have to ask why you're not seeing any young players are who are of similar quality to the rest of the starters.) Of course, in the exceptional situations where the young players are so obviously superior, they're also highly unlikely to go down with the club if it's relegated, so aren't really playing to stay in the league themselves.

    We saw pro/rel stall a 20-year-old Benny Feilhaber's development at Derby County. He was getting regular substitute minutes for the first half of the season, but when the club was in the relegation zone at midseason they signed a bunch of "proven" 30+ year old grinders, and no one under 24 got more than token minutes for the rest of the season.

    A few years ago, I looked at several years of 23-man shortlists for FIFA's Ballon d'Or. I found that, on average, only 2-3 players on the shortlist per year had ever been within 10 points of relegation. The majority had spent their entire careers at title-contending clubs (at most spending a year or two at an upper-mid-table club) and never been in the lower half of a league table. Top prospects tend to already be signed by one of the their country's top clubs, if not international superclubs, years before they ever see first team action.
     
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  2. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Odd, a common theme in American sports is the "dead in the water nothing to play for" team screwing it up for a team headed to/on the cusp of the playoffs.
     
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  3. That's what you get when people start messing with something they have no clue about.
    Just.
    Hire.
    Me.
     
  4. We have an opposite opinion in the Netherlands. We put Young teams in the second tier (they can't promote, but can get relegated iirc) up against players that fight for their existance. In those Young teams you fight for promotion to the first team, not against players that still are developing and not under pressure to have the team perform, but against players that aren't going to give you gifts, but want to take your money.
    We here think the more pressure you have to deal with, the better. Either you collaps and should go a level lower or you stand tall and are worth to be a first team player.
    We put de Ligt as a 17 year old under tremendous pressure in the EL campaign into the EL Final. We didnot think that's not good.
    If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
     
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  5. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    Zlatan talked about MLS being a different type of challenge given that it's the first time he feels like anything can happen on a given day. He described his experience in Europe as playing for "unbeatable" clubs who "destroy everybody." Obviously, that doesn't mean he didn't face intense pressure in Europe, but I think it's safe to say it was a different breed of pressure than, say, Tim Ream faces at Fulham. And in MLS a DP at a CCL level club faces different pressure than a bench player in a perennial non-playoff team.
     
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  6. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And that echos what Beckham, Henry, Keane, and Villa all said about the league. It might be just me, but I'll take the word of several world superstars that have played at all of the highest levels of the game both club and international.
     
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  7. How many CL/EL cups has he won? None, but he's the biggest mouth on earth when it comes to achievements. He's the archetype of a player destroying minis, but sucking against the real deal clubs. So in the mls with parity, he's in a club that deals with likewise strength clubs. Sounds like the situation he was in with big clubs against big clubs. Trouble to lead the club to victory and titles (=CL/EL trophies) when he plays against even steven clubs.
     
  8. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He won the UEFA Super Cup with Barca and the EL with ManU
     
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  9. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But it's not about Zlatan himself. The point about Zlatan's comment is that many of the world's top players have literally never experienced anything else, because they started at a superclub's academy (if not an international superclub, then at least a dominant club in their home country) and they've gone from superclub to superclub throughout their careers. That's the careers of most of the Ballon d'Or nominees at any given time.

    Great players coming from pro/rel leagues does not mean greatness being produced in the crucible of pro/rel.
     
  10. If your point is to make me believe you become a superstar/potential or actual ballon d'or winner by not being able to deal with pressure because they never encountered it, I think you're trying to be funny.
    Many players that come to Feyenoord, Ajax, PSV to mention just the Dutch clubs fail because of the inability to deal with the pressure that comes with playing there. It'snot like you play free from pressure, on the contrary, it's several levels higher.
    The Young team players do play in that "crucible of P/R" as they fight against teams trying to either promote by being champion or by getting into the play off rounds for promotion/relegation.
     
  11. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    ... or who are fighting tooth and nail to avoid relegation.
     
  12. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    English rugby owners want to nullify the threat of relegation.

    The Gallagher Premiership is on another plane financially and recently attracted significant investment from CVC Capital Partners. But this week brought the news that 11 of its 12 teams posted significant losses for the last financial year, a combined deficit of nearly £50m.

    Some club owners, not just those whose teams are at the bottom of the league, say the risk of relegation to the Championship drives unrealistic spending and actual relegation can mean financial catastrophe. London Irish, in effect the 13th Premiership team, are set to come back up this year but they posted a significant loss too. It seems another one-time top-tier team, Yorkshire Carnegie, will not be coming back: they have announced a return to part-time pay.

    The Guardian
     
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  13. This is why the KNVB has strict financial rules for the clubs. We have category 1 to 3. Category 1 is very bad and you have to put in a plan to mend the situation or face points deduction. Category 2 means you're on the watchlist. Category 3 means you're safe and sound. Clubs have to show their finances match the planned expenditures. If not they're required to make changes. Clubs are monitored too during the season. If things are going the wrong way they get into a category that requires them to report the progress on the measures being taken.
    So in fact financial mismanagement is punished with points deduction, which can lead to relegation.

    The Guardian article shows what happens when a league is run by investors and not by independent facilitators. Those investors under KNVB ruling would be punished to the hilt leasding to relegation as a punishment, while these sad people instead of behaving themselves try to escape their wrong doing by going into closed shop mode.
    Better example for the perversity of it you cannot give.
    Many thanks.
     
  14. kinznk

    kinznk Member

    Feb 11, 2007
    I'm confused and perhaps reading this incorrectly or looking into it for other things. But if I understand the pressure faced by the players at those clubs does not come from the threat of relegation but from somewhere else. In the US it is often said the games are meaningless or lack the pressure as there is no threat of relegation. As the big Dutch clubs face even more pressure than other Dutch clubs it would stand to reason that pro/rel is not the impetus for the pressure. I would guess, not having been to Holland, the players have a sense of pride and desire to do well for either game, riches, or self satisfaction. I would guess the greater media and fan scrutiny increases pressure. Perhaps I'm wrong but you are making it sound like pro/rel is not as much of a pressure applied as other aspects of the sport. The other aspects are perhaps what is lacking in the Us such as fame, riches, media and fan scrutiny.
     
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  15. Pressure in Europe is common for all players and all clubs, they only come in different clothing. That's my critic on the Zlatan quote.
    Edit: The suggestion that big players at big clubs don't have pressure and he just came awre of it in the mls is too silly to take serious.
     
  16. kinznk

    kinznk Member

    Feb 11, 2007
    I agree that players in Europe have pressure, all levels. Based on your statement I would guess that pro/rel is not the main driver of the pressure. Some people, not necessarily you as I don't have a spreadsheet of who says what, claim that MLS is not a pressure-filled league due to lack of pro/rel. But if players have pressure when they never face relegation then the pressure must come from somewhere.

    As for Zlatan's take on pressure, regardless whether he is a blowhard or not, I think is couched in the idea that with salary caps you have to come to play every game if you want a win. With PSG, he could have had a poor game and they still would have beaten 75% of the teams in the French league. If he has a bad game in MLS the Galaxy may beat 25% of the teams. I assume he, or any other great player, would be disappointed in a bad game and want to always perform but in a salary capped league I would guess there is a greater chance of a loss. So Zlatan has to be good every game to give his team a reasonable chance.

    Mind you, I am not comparing MLS with the big 5 in Europe as far as talent. Just that he has a different sort of pressure that he may have never had before. It is one thing to be a great player but it is a new responsibility to carry a team for many of them that come to MLS.
     
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  17. The number of professional clubs, apart from England and Germany, isnot big. So if there's a threat to get relegated, as a player you get in an uncomfortable situation, depending on how long your contract is running, but that is hardly ever more than 2 years and only when you're a new signing. But that is in the case you get a two years contract. If you're signed on a one year with option for one more for the club, the risk after relegation is that your contract ends and good luck finding a new club when you're one of the mediocre ones. Relegation puts pressure on club and players alike, as there's a constant stream of youth players ready to take your place for less money.
     
  18. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That pressure exists for players in MLS too, for the same reason -- only a handful of USL clubs pay players enough to live on, so there aren't a lot of opportunities available. Even without the threat of relegation, players are still playing for their jobs.
     
  19. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nowhere did I claim that top clubs don't face pressure. They're not only expected to win, they're expected to win stylishly. But they are not playing to stay in the league. The pressure is driven entirely by the fans' belief that their "rightful place" in the league is at the top, contending for titles every season.

    Also, it doesn't necessarily matter that opponents are fighting tooth and nail to avoid relegation. If they're in that spot at all, they're usually so far inferior to the top teams that the top teams can have an off day and still walk over them.

    In a salary capped league, some of the best players in the league will always be at the bottom of the table. No matter how badly an opponent is doing in that season, they will have one or two of those special players who are capable of punishing every mistake you make.
     
  20. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I guess 11 teams would be relegated:)
     
  21. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What we find in the lower reaches of professional football is that there are players who just do not care. It's simply a job. The passion in the stands is often not reflected on the pitch. When players played for one club their whole careers they became part of the fabric of the club. These days many are mercenaries on one or two year contracts who'll find it fairly easy to find a new club.

    Take that up a notch and you get players like Ryan Babel. In the last 5 years he's had two spells in Turkey, one in Spain and one in Abu Dhabi. Do you really think he felt pressure at Fulham this season? He can go virtually anywhere in the world and get the same money.
     
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  22. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Billy Sharp has made a hell of a living/career for himself being a lower league hitman. Here are his travels and years/season with the clubs:

    Rush/Diam (04/05)
    Sheffield U (04/05)
    Scunthorpe (05/06 - 06/07)
    Sheffield U (07/08 - 09/10)
    Doncaster (09/10 - 11/12)
    Southampton (11/12 - 12/13)
    Forest (12/13)
    Reading (13/14)
    Doncaster (13/14)
    Leeds (14/15)
    Sheff U (15/16 - Present)

    His longest stay is his last one, at 4yrs this season. 11 moves in 14 seasons. He's moved 5 times in season. 7 of his stops have been for a season or less.

    Tell me more about what this is about ... :rolleyes:
     
  23. Uhm, no. When the upper clubs, in the Eredivisie PSV, Ajax, Feyenoord and AZ, play to their capabilities, most of the times they win. But when they play under that capability, let's say just because of an off day by a couple of player, they for sure donot walk over even the bottom clubs. No, the mantra with the top clubs is that when you have a suck day on the pitch you have to ditch your "superiority" mode, and then enter the "roll up your sleaves" mode and fight the opponent with his weapons, determination and fighting spirit or face points loss.
    Simple examples. A couple of seasons ago Ajax was going into the last match of the season with 1 point lead over PSV. Ajax had already relegated "de Graafschap" as opponent and a draw would suffice to grab the 5th title in a row.
    De Graafschap was determined to go out with a bang and Ajax surprisingly lost that match, giving the title to PSV.
    If a relegated team can beat the top dog in its last match, where the stakes were very high for the top dog, it flies into the face of people telling Euro leagues are walk overs for the top dog teams.
    Feyenoord went to miniscule Excelsior Rotterdam for the match to clinch the title with a four points lead to Ajax and 2 matches to go. Tickets from Excelsior fans were sold to Feyenoord fans as high as 8000 €€ (the stadium only has a 4800 capacity), because nobody was expecting Excelsior could keep us at bay. We lost with a sobering 3-0! Excelsior just was safe from relegation play off with that win.
    Again it flies into the face of those claiming the rest of the league doesnot play a role, especially those clubs in the relegation zone.
    This was a match between the title candidate and table number one needing the win to secure the title and the club that needed one point to be safe.
    Thank god we won the last match to take the title.
    PSV this season had to fight till the last minutes to win matches. Iirc they grabbed 20 points in the last 5 minutes this season. Not very likely if you think the rest of the league is just table filler.
    The simplicity in "opinion" from mls parity boasters is purely based on the table at the end of the season, but not on the actual way matches unfold.
    Feyenoord this season was the champion of the top 4 encounters, in which the 6-2 beating up of Ajax was the most eye catching. So you'll expect us to steamroll the minnows, as the mantra of the parity boasters claim is the case.
    Guess what, we lost far more points to the minnows, even lost about 3 times more against minnows than against the other top 4 clubs.
    But hey, parity rules and makes for better competition.
    Yeah, sell that to the Feyenoord fans.
    On top of that I read in the US forums that mls is far better than the clubs below our top 4 clubs.
    Well, I watch on Eurosport from time to time mls clubs play. They must be kidding. I hardly see players in the mls do the technical stuff players in the lower regions of the Eredivisie show, let alone the tactical parts.
     

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