The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #19851 Elninho, Apr 5, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
    I think you're missing his point.

    The point is that only Europe and South America have lucrative, prestigious continental competitions. Until the semifinals, the CONCACAF Champions League is basically an afterthought for the US and Mexican clubs in it. And even in the final rounds, there isn't that much interest. The CCL isn't even on English-language TV in the US! There simply isn't much to gain from doing well in continental competitions, which means one argument against parity goes away.

    It also means qualifying for the CCL isn't much of a prize.

    Pro/rel does not change that. Whether the top division in the US is closed or open, the money and prestige available in UEFA competitions is simply not available here, and probably will not ever be unless CONCACAF merges with CONMEBOL. For that reason, domestic titles will be the main focus in the US for the foreseeable future, either with or without pro/rel.
     
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  2. They have parity into extremis.
     
  3. kinznk

    kinznk Member

    Feb 11, 2007
    That is exactly what would be needed. It is so far from mainstream that...I dont know what but I know it is. I dont think pro rel catapults soccer into mainstream. Nor do I think closed league catapults it either.
     
  4. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Soccer could become the biggest sport in the US but US communities don't bond by sport, they bond around schools. In general your local high school team represents your community, not your local amateur (or semi-pro) adult team.

    From the FIFA Big Count in 2006:
    upload_2019-4-5_22-28-16.png

    upload_2019-4-5_22-27-23.png

    upload_2019-4-5_22-29-40.png
     
  5. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    I fear the general sports fan reaction to pro/rel might be to see it as a collection of minor leagues merging as a last ditch effort to survive. Not exactly something that screams high level excitement to the uninitiated.
     
  6. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    I think it would probably be perceived as gimmicky, but minor leagues are always about gimmicks to attract attention and gin up crowds because they have to do something to distinguish themselves as a better alternative to watching the big leagues on TV and distract from the fact that they have lower tier talent.
     
  7. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't agree with this necessarily. It isn't like people don't know this. Nobody going to a Hooks game has any delusion about the level of players out on the diamond. Yeah, they do the stunts etc because non Major league teams/leagues aren't going to pull, yes. But they and the fans know the talent level going in. They aren't trying to pull a fast one or pop up smoke and mirrors to hid the fact.
     
  8. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Great scrap going on in League One for three of the "best draft choice" places. With 5 or 6 games left, almost half the league is still vying for them. Just six points separate 13th from 23rd.
     
  9. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Three years ago there were 16 teams still in contention for the MLS Supporters' Shield, a significant trophy that came with a CCL spot, with just four games left, and you dismissed that.
     
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  10. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Indeed, when a league is rigged for parity, you tend to get... parity. No such attempts at parity in League One.
     
  11. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Except for the sorting in strength that happens in all lower leagues, with or without pro/rel, because the better players always find their way up to higher leagues.
     
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  12. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Hard to see much or any evidence of that in pro/rel leagues; perhaps you'd like to provide some?
     
  13. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wait, what?
     
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  14. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Huh? The question was about parity within a division, not between divisions.
     
  15. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
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  16. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To expand on my point earlier: the lower leagues constantly lose their best players, who move up with or without pro/rel. The players within any lower league will be of similar quality because of that sorting. That isn't true of the top division because there isn't any higher league to keep moving up to. The existence of foreign leagues has less of an impact on the top division because of barriers to moving across borders, and because the big clubs in lesser leagues (especially in Europe) have access to the same continental competitions as those in the strongest leagues.
     
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  17. Uhm, no..it isnot. At least not in the Dutch competition.
    The teams that relegated have better players most of the times compared to the teams that are competing with them to promote into the Eredivisie.
    it also isnot a common thing to see players being bought away from the second tier by Eredivisieclubs.
    The reason is that the best talents are at a young age aggregated/massed at the Eredivisie academies. Talents then are either playing for the Young teams in the second tier or loaned to the other clubs.
     
  18. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Not only will there be teams that have come down from the division above, there will be teams that have come up from the division below. Almost inevitably this leads to a gradation of teams in "minor" leagues that is likely diminished in closed leagues where every league is a discrete entity with little or no mixing.
     
  19. DanGerman

    DanGerman Member+

    Aug 28, 2014
    New York City
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    You'd have to agree that the Dutch leagues are set-up as a selling league that utilize their youth setup more so than most.Meanwhile the big clubs in the top leagues like Bayern, Chealsea, Real Madrid, Man City/United all stockpile top young players and either play them or sell them down the road after a loan or two. In England Prem clubs are notorious for scouting League 1 and 2 setups and poaching their players with the most potential.
     
  20. Nope. Yanks have the strange way of putting cause and effect in the wrong places.
    First of all top clubs donot want to pay us high fees, unless there's no other way.
    They/EPL clubs have a habit of robbing our academies from talents before they even are ready for first team play to get them cheap. That these cvnts then are being destroyed by those epl academies/clubs is a nasty side effect.
    So, no. The EPL/BuLi top clubs didnot want to buy players from the clubs that went through the whole academy/first team road, but rather save millions by luring the top talents away.
    Since a couple of years now it became apparent to the talents that those who went abroad never succeeded. So now we have a batch of players that stayed and surprise become stars that top clubs chase.
    The aim of clubs like PSV, Ajax and Feyenoord however is to get as far as possible in the CL/EL and for that you need those players to stay put.
    The reality is that the power of money forces our clubs to sell as the players can earn 10-20 times as much as we are willing to pay.
    So, once again, it isnot a business plan, but a market force we cannot fight.
    We want to keep our players, but arenot able to because of the huge differences in pay check.
    Frenkie de Jong at the moment makes about a million €€ at Ajax and next season at Barcelona is going to earn over 15 million.
    Even if Ajax would say he willnot be sold, you have a very unhappy player in your team and when a player is near end of contract also the risk he walks out without compensation.
    So no, the league isnot set up as a selling league. It's the circumstances that makes it one.
     
  21. DanGerman

    DanGerman Member+

    Aug 28, 2014
    New York City
    Club:
    New York City FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You realize you're confirming my statement that teams in Pro/Rel player quality is stratified due to the money the teams in the top have, whether you like it or not none of the top Dutch teams can hang on to their players if the big clubs come calling and will I agree it sucks its the reality of the situation same in England when say Leyton Orient finds a great young player he'll almost immediately be snapped up by a bigger club and a lot of times to the players detriment. Also Ajax doesn't seem to have any problem selling players and keeping its normal standing intact same with PSV. They either promote someone from the 2nd team or buy a player from abroad for cheap a la Farfan/Beasley at PSV. The Dutch in my opinion should be commended for producing top players on a consistent basis recently, same with the Portuguese.
     
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  22. The difference is in the CL/EL competition. The selling of the top players is damaging for the run in these competitions.
    However the selling of two or three defining players by Ajax and/or PSV isnot impacting them on the Eredivisie level. Ajax collects around 160 million for two players and PSV maybe for Lozano around 50.
    They can buy back foreign talents/quality players for less who still have to prove themselves on European level, but are already above Eredivisie level.
    So for the local ambitions the selling doesnot affect them much, but it does on the European level.
     
  23. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Capitalism sucks sometimes!
     
  24. Hasnot got anything to do with capitalism, but more so with stupidity.
    Capitalism means making good investments and make more money than you invested.
    However the epl clubs keep on doing something, robbing our academies, while it doesnot bring any results. They should have concluded a decade ago it isnot worth it, let's stop doing it.
    Nope, they're like lottery players thinking the jackpot is coming next time with the new kid/lottery ticket.
     
  25. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How long has it been since (before AJAX this year) a Dutch club has seriously done damage/challenged in the CL?

    Seems like they've been doing a fine job of investing in making sure the arguably best youth developing country isn't reaping the rewards of its efforts.
     

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