The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hopefully it will work and more communities will try it.

    However investors in a sports team must expect to lose money and be prepared to lose their entire investment.

    I invested a four figure sum to help out Notts County in 2002 and will never see it again but that was sort of expected.
     
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  2. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    I'm shocked that you think I won't be able to retire on my one share of a non-division soccer team.
     
  3. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    That's what I get for skimming an article 5 minutes after waking up.
     
  4. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    NASL was a not a franchisor. The independent clubs owned the league and voted on what other clubs could join. NPSL is structured the same way. There was a fee to join and leave, but these weren't franchise fees in anything but in the sense that we use the word "franchise" interchangeably with "sports team" in this country. They are more like membership fees (and penalties if you break your contract).

    One of the reasons TOA was created was because those owners didn't like USL's ownership model (i.e. franchising).
     
  5. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    One of my best friends is an Ipswich fan and got a bunch of us to attend games back in the 2000s when they were struggling financially.
     
  6. CrazyJ628

    CrazyJ628 Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    The center of the Earth
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    I actually agree. Part of the reason I'm a Packers fan is specifically because they're community owned. I hope CFC is successful, I really do.
     
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  7. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You know what to expect, other investors may be less familiar with the the perils of lower division soccer clubs.
     
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  8. ThreeApples

    ThreeApples Member+

    Jul 28, 1999
    Smurf Village
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Independent clubs own the NBA or NFL and vote on who can join. That's all franchising.
     
    HailtotheKing repped this.
  9. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    The NBA and NFL are not technically franchisors in the true business sense, the term "franchise" is used vernacularly used because they have territorial rights and some support from the league. They share the benefits of the franchise model, but the teams are separate, independent corporate entities.

    USL on the other hand, is a franchise league. The league is independent from the teams and issues the franchises.

    Again, because we use the term "franchise" pretty interchangeably with "sports team" in North America, this comes across as pedantry - my only original point was in regards to "USL is the bane of you know who and his buddies because of the franchise model (NASL was also a franchise)".
     
  10. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    NBA head Adam Silver spoke thus:

    “I know that as much growth as we’ve seen, we have a long way to go before we can sustain four franchises in Europe. On the other hand, I believe it’s our manifest destiny to expand.”
     
  11. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    NBA teams are franchises in the same way that MLS teams are clubs.
     
  12. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Meaning we're using terms as shorthand for things they resemble.
     
  13. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The head of NBA frequently refers to his teams as franchises. Maybe the that's the way he keeps the owners in their place.

    I feel like MLS teams are more like clubs in that most actively engage their fans, in a way that other US major sports don't.

    Precourt almost destroyed that narrative but thanks to Art Modell it continues.

    In England AFC Wimbledon obviously operate like a club but the last team to be actively run like a club was F*rest who were run by a supporters' committee until the late 1980s.
     
  14. kinznk

    kinznk Member

    Feb 11, 2007
    Out here on the west coast I was having troubles sleeping this morning so I got up and flicked the tv on at 4:50 and turned on the game. LC is playing at Wolves. Neither team has a shot at the title, nor a chance at qualifying for the playoffs, I mean Europe. Neither team has a chance of relegation. It is the consummate meaningless game. Dare I say an exhibition. Despite all this the Wolves fans seem to be having a good time, the stands appear filled, and the players seem to be playing hard. One might think Englishmen enjoy watching soccer despite the circumstances of the game. You might also think something else motivates the players besides being relegated, like enjoying the game and wanting a job. Sports isn't complicated.
     
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  15. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Spoiler alert!
    $7.5 billion beat $5.1 billion 2-0.

    Seriously, it's great for Wolves fans who suffered the ignominy of 3 successive relegations in the mid 1980s.

    Notts played them in three different divisions in three successive seasons. That must be some sort of a record.

    1983/84 First Division (D1)
    Wolves 0 - 1 Notts 7,481
    Notts 4 - 0 Wolves 5,378
    Wolves 22nd, Notts 21st

    1984/85 Second Division
    Wolves 2 - 3 Notts 7,676
    Notts 4 - 1 Wolves 5,561
    Wolves 22nd, Notts 20th

    1985/86 Third Division
    Notts 4 - 0 Wolves 5,264
    Wolves 2 - 2 Notts 3,774
    Wolves 23rd, Notts 8th

    1986/87 Fourth Division
    Wolves finished fourth but lost out in the playoffs

    You can tell by the attendances how enthralled fans were by the relegation derbies.
     
  16. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    7th qualified for the Europa League last season, so both those teams have realistic expectations of a European place, depending on who wins the League Cup (a CL qualifier unless Burton overcome a 9 goal deficit) and FA Cup. Also suspect Wolves fans are pretty happy that their team is on course for a higher place finish since way back when. It's anything but a consummate meaningless game.
     
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  17. kinznk

    kinznk Member

    Feb 11, 2007
    So they can back into not on their sporting merit but someone else's?
     
  18. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    No.
     
  19. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    As I'm frequently telling the pro/rel fundamentalists, the term "club" doesn't actually refer to fan ownership or membership. It refers to the players.

    For example, Man United originated as a works club for employees of Lancashire and Yorkshire Railways, based in Newton Heath.

    The original full name was "Newton Heath LYR Football Club".

    It was started by the company, so had no fan or player ownership and being basically an amateur rec team initially, there were no fans to own the team.

    When football teams first started using the term "club", it was closer to that of a chess or bridge club. It was a club you joined to play football.
     
  20. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #18670 Paul Berry, Jan 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
    Being owned by businessmen was the exception rather than a rule. And I disagree that "club" refers to just the players.

    Of the EFL founder members Preston, Derby and Burnley were founded by existing sports clubs, Everton and Villa by churchgoers, Wolves and Blackburn by old school pals, West Brom and Stoke by employees, while Accrington, Derby and Notts were founded in pubs.

    It would be interesting to know the ownership history of football clubs in the UK and elsewhere but I do believe that most were run as clubs, with members playing dues and elected board members, until well after WW2.
     
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  21. kinznk

    kinznk Member

    Feb 11, 2007
    If it is on their own sporting merit they qualify for Europe by finishing 7th that makes the game meaningful. Then, is qualifying for the playoffs a meaningful pursuit?
     
  22. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Yes, but to a considerably lesser extent. Firstly, 58% of MLS teams qualified for the playoffs last season, whereas only 35% of Premier League teams qualified for a European competition. Secondly, any of those 58% could go on and win the MLS championship; in contrast, that 7th placed finisher in the Premier League couldn't win the Champions League (although, theoretically at least, they could win the Europa League and then the CL the following season).
     
  23. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Maybe we should rename the regular season the "MLS Cup Qualifying Round".
     
  24. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    There are more than 300 men's college teams.
    They just aren't playing NCAA D1.
    If you were a fan of a typical NPSL team you'd know that.
     
  25. USRufnex

    USRufnex Red Card

    Tulsa Athletic / Sheffield United
    United States
    Jul 15, 2000
    Tulsa, OK
    Club:
    --other--
    You're really sad.
    You don't understand that shared interests on a message board should be treated exactly as that, rather than how Pro/Rel has been treated for many years on this message board.
    You should be ashamed, but sadly...
     

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