The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    By the way... Philadelphia thought so little of the draft this year that they traded away EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEIR PICKS.

    So if anyone was wondering if the people playing the "tanking for draft picks" card were barking up the wrong tree...
     
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  2. So someone is either screwing up the selection of drafts or the whole process of producing quality drafts is not going well.
    I've never heared of a lack of quality youths coming up through the ranks of Pro/Rel leagues.
     
  3. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I really wish college soccer were better.
     
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  4. CrazyJ628

    CrazyJ628 Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    The center of the Earth
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    If there were 300 men’s college teams it would be. The women’s college game is great. The season needs to be longer like Feb-May like baseball and softball
     
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  5. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Huh? There are no bad players in pro/rel leagues?

    Philly traded away college picks, preferring to focus on developing their own players.

    It's a demonstration of how the college system has become supplemental to teams' own academy programs.
     
    HailtotheKing and jaykoz3 repped this.
  6. Where did you read that? No lack means the quality exists, it doesnot mean only quality exists.
     
  7. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "I've never heared of a lack of quality youths coming up through the ranks of Pro/Rel leagues."

    Ok I misread it.

    But fact that Philly have decided not to pursue signing college players is not an indictment on the whole system.

    Manchester United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Manchester City, Tottenham and Arsenal's combined signings from the Football League this season comprise of 3 academy players, unless you count Shaquiri, who played in the EPL last season.

    Does that imply there's no talent in the Football League?

    Of course as MLS and USL academies improve you will see a drop in the quality of college players because they're in the right place t to develop as pro soccer players at 18 and 19.
     
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  8. No, it simply signals the available money to buy the best in the world and when you can do that, it's a steep hill to climb as a young Brit/Englishman.
    It's proven by the rising number of English talents that seek refuge in continental leagues and have success there. Sadly for them Brexit is going to slam that door shut I think.
     
  9. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I posted a little earlier explaining why the draft is less and less relevant. It's because the top prospects are now being siphoned off as Homegrown signings before the draft. The best of the best are signed to pro contracts by the time they're 18, of course, but even then, most of the top American players in college soccer are MLS academy graduates. The MLS team that developed them can sign them directly, any time before the draft. Most of the Americans in the draft pool have been passed over by a MLS club that watched them at academy level, then kept tabs on them for four years of college soccer which included playing for the club's U-23 squad in the summers.

    So at least for the American players, if they were top prospects they wouldn't be in the draft in the first place. This is a result of the academy system starting to mature, not a lack of quality youth development.
     
  10. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You have to credit the Notts County chairman for trying to drum up support. 15,026 people paid $2.57 each to watch is drop to 6 points from safety in League Two.

    We'll be lucky if 4,000 pay $30 each to watch our next home match.
     
  11. kinznk

    kinznk Member

    Feb 11, 2007
    Are you saying that a draft system is not necessarily an important part of a closed league but rather a function of the youth development system of a sport used in a country?
     
  12. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    4,000 would be quite a good number for my local team (Riverhounds). We'd probably have to play a friendly against Barcelona to get 15,000.

    Still, I wouldn't be opposed to pro/rel for the experimental sake of seeing how it affects the team's popularity.
     
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  13. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks to @feyenoordsoccerfan for posting this tweet in another thread:


    It's a long thread, but well worth reading. Brings some insight into life in an Elite European Club Youth Development Academy. Also worth noting that current USMNT General Manager Earnie Stewart was the Sporting Director at AZ prior to becoming the Philadelphia Union's Sporting Director. He brought a lot of the same philosophies used at AZ to Philadelphia's YSC Academy.
     
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  14. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    "Playing for better General Allocation Money".
     
  15. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    I think Macclesfield and Morecambe will save your skin.
     
  16. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Ah the irony.
     
  17. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Swing and a miss.
     
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  18. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Plumb LBW.
     
  19. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I think It's been about a fortnight since that guy tweeted about pro/rel and I wouldn't class him as a troll. You seem to apply that label to anybody who holds a different stance on a subject you care about.

    Your post here is a prime example for my personal theory on why the staunch pro/rel fundamentalists favour twitter to a forum like bigsoccer: mute and block allows them to create the echo chamber they want to operate within.

    And while we're talking crap about twitter posts, Ben Fast frequently repeats the same arguments without addressing clear points raised against them. Meanwhile, he rants about the welfare of every person and club in US soccer rather than MLS. He does this while supporting Arsenal and posting clips of himself in a Dortmund jersey.

    When you're a hardcore twitter activist that claims to reject MLS because it hurts lower league teams and players, it's downright bizarre for you to then support and/or promote G-14 members.
     
  20. CrazyJ628

    CrazyJ628 Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    The center of the Earth
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    So after denying that you threatened to punch someone over your preferred standings gimmick you finally own up to it. We're making progress here!

    IIRC, this all happened after you made the correlation of kids in Messi shirts = #ProRel4USA.

    Again, not Joe, Jeff. Not Joe.
    OUT OF CONTEXT PUB PHOTO!!!
    [​IMG]

    You don't want to discuss it. You want a circle jerk.

    See.

    No wonder you weren't chosen as a mod.

    I mean. If we're bringing Twitter into the discussion, we could bring up your tweet about checking to see if you've been banned from BigSoccer. Kind of like you're trying to get yourself banned so you can go to all of your fellow cult members and make it seem like you're some sort of martyr rather than someone who is purposefully trying to sabotage any discussion.

    Again. Here you're flat-out admitting that you have no interest in talking about pro/rel and would rather try to get us (including people who actually like the idea) to put you on ignore. Your martyr complex is really showing here.

    You want us to put you on ignore but come in guns a blazin' with nothing but complaints and conspiracies. You're like the Great Galactic Inquisator from Venture Bros.

    [​IMG]

    It is. It's just one way that countries have decided to organize their leagues. That's all. Sorry if you can't see it for what it is.

    Your club doesn't pay players. They're not even part of the system. That's not on USSF/MLS/USL/SUM or the lack of an open system (which we actually have BTW, just not the one you want).

    You must've missed Barry and I discussing two ways in which to actually try pro/rel. I think it's a idiotic idea but I can even come up with a way to maybe, just maybe, make it work. It won't happen (thank God) but I can fantasy-book with the best of them.

    You want a circle jerk.

    I don't want Ben Affleck to leave the role of Batman but...here we are.

    We already have a major and minor league system. Spain and Germany have them too and in Spain, the minor league teams can move all the way up to D2.

    If you have a problem with major league teams only coming to certain markets take that up with the socio-geo-economic setup in our country. That's how it is for every other major sport we have. That's not USSF's problem, that's a problem of economics.
     
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  21. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Clearly.

    A couple of years ago, when I felt the situation was salvageable, I started precisely such a thread and went to Jeff with a conciliatory DM with a link to it.

    I've also linked to it in these threads.

    Despite people actually doing what he wanted and discussing ideas for implementing pro/rel (including some thoughts from some of the alleged "anti-pro/rel herd"), he didn't participate AFAIR.

    Of course, the thread died relatively quickly because there isn't really a groundswell of people who want lengthy in-depth conversations about what US pro/rel might look like.

    Jeff just wanted to pontificate about it one day and resented that he can't post his thoughts on a public forum without putting them up for critique.

    But then the only reason you might present an idea without welcoming feedback is because you want a circle jerk.

    And so we've "come full circle", just not in the way Jeff was hoping...
     
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  22. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    If they're serious about being cool, hardcore rebels they should at least boycott the Premier League and the Bundesliga for allowing ownership groups with ties to MLS. :p
     
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  23. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    That's certainly true about Twitter. And also Facebook groups, where a comment and replies to that comment can disappear at a stroke if the original poster takes a dislike to something. A complete waste of time imo. Otoh, BS is run at the whim of a moderator, who can both censure and ban people. For example, Rufnex was banned from this forum for a while and is apparently banned from MLS forum(s) - ironically by a moderator who throws abuse at Rufnex on this thread. So although I agree that a message board is a superior means of discussion, it's hardly plain sailing.
     
  24. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The rising number being two, or is it three now?
     
  25. There are more in the Netherlands alone, iirc 4. In Germany and Belgium there are too.
    You really should read the English abroad thread.
     

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