The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    True.
     
  2. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    And yet, as we've discussed before, attendance tends to rise and fall with tier and even the better attended smaller clubs, have usually reached that status by having previously played at a higher tier.

    Burnely's attendances while in lower leagues would be a case-in-point.
     
  3. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    It's your nation's domestic league?
     
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  4. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Yeah, that one with zero history or prestige. That one.

    But seriously, why should random soccer fan in Charlotte, Milwaukee, or San Diego care about whatever team that is, at most, less than a quarter of a century old, over any other team?
     
    owian repped this.
  5. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Not meaning to sound sh*tty or condescending but to my mind, the age and prestige don't counteract the fact that this is the domestic league in your nation.

    It's the main American and Canadian league. That's the connection.

    Enjoying Barcelona's style of play, isn't a connection. It's product selection. Not to say it doesn't make your support and subsequent emotional investment valid.

    However, supporting MLS because it's your national league is every bit as valid.

    Now for the casual fan who just wants to watch a soccer match at the weekend, I see where you'd go with watching the biggest names.

    Now what I'm going to write next, doesn't go for all such fans by any means, but I think there's also a bit of denial at work among some of those that favour Barca and firmly dismiss MLS, especially when those dismissals are laced with comments about authenticity and culture.

    I believe that in truth, this is often product selection based on standards, which doesn't sit comfortably with the cultural ideal of "authentic support". However, if such a fan can convince themself that the domestic league is doing soccer wrong, is plastic or is contrary to the spirit of the game, then they can justify rejecting it in favour of a top UEFA league and/or superclub.
     
    HailtotheKing repped this.
  6. Donot question that. Was merely reacting to the attitude you described about leagues being "inferior".
    Amateur clubs wouldnot draw any people if that superior/inferior notion would be like those guys you mentioned have.
    Amateur derby impression:
    Sfeerimpressie derby Katwijk - Quick Boys (21-03-2015) - YouTube
    upload_2018-6-11_13-23-29.jpeg ▶ 7:01

    23 mrt. 2015 - Geüpload door Voetbal in de Bollenstreek
    Een sfeerimpressie van de derby tussen Katwijk en Quick Boys op zaterdag 21 maart 2015. Uitslag ...
     
  7. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One of the reasons it matters in the US is: clubs here simply don't have the history that many European amateur clubs have. That derby you're mentioning is between a club founded in 1920 and a club founded in 1939.

    The reason TV prevents organic development in the US is that it's much more difficult for a new club to get attention in the TV era than it is for an established club to preserve an existing supporter base.
     
  8. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Case in point: the Tweede Divisie, in 2017-18, contained exactly two clubs "founded" since 1960... and both of those clubs were formed from mergers between existing clubs founded before 1950.

    Drop down a division, and look at the Derde Divisie Saturday league that Quick Boys play in, and there's exactly one club founded since 1960.

    In the US, there isn't a single club in the professional leagues or the two top amateur leagues that was founded before 1990.
     
  9. I understand that, but what comes first is that one loves soccer. In that case it doesnot matter what quality the league has your club is in. You want to watch soccer live and experience it. See in the video the excitement among the crowd, while they have in US eyes, far better clubs at hand in a very short distance. ADO Den Haag, YA Johnsen's club is about 15 miles away, Sparta Rotterdam 25 miles, Excelsior Rotterdam 28 and finally Feyenoord 30 miles. They probably watch Feyenoord matches and the other Eredivisie clubs on tv, but that doesnot keep them away from attending lower level clubs.
    That's the difference between being soccer lover as a spectator or as a fan. The word fan means attachement to a club. So while history can play a role like you describe, it isnot the main point at all. History is preceeded by love for the game, not the other way around. That's why I cannot understand people dismissing watching mls for being inferior and only spend time with the real quality on tv.
    I've seen the Eredivisie when it was a high quality league with the 3 best clubs in the world and it's gradual sliding downwards to what it is now. For the fans it doesnot matter. They love soccer and thus they watch their favourite (often local) club live and then watch the big guns of the EPL and La Liga and BuLi on tv. It wouldnot come across their minds to swap the one for the other. They combine both worlds, the experience of the fan and the quality as a spectator.
     
  10. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What are the chances of finding a connection to an MLS team VS a connection to Barca, for an American soccer fan?

    What's more realistic ... taking a trip or two up to ATL, or a flight or two to Barcelona?

    For one, they can be in on the literal founding of a club's history here in the US. Though, what the 50, 75, or 100 year history of an English or German club would relate to or have significance for an American fan ... I'm not quite sure.
     
  11. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I see.

    It's a strange attitude as we literally have had at least one local MLS team (as well as a USL team and a number of amateur teams) since 1996.

    During a recent discussion about pro/rel on another social media platform, the question was raised about where MLS would rank among UEFA leagues and funnily enough, I pegged it lower than some of the league's detractors (8th/9th vs about 15th).
     
  12. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    I don't really feel like you're being condescending, but I don't think you're being terribly realistic, either.

    Do normal people care about leagues? I think they generally care about teams or the game itself. If you're far from an MLS city, and you don't have any connection with any MLS city or team in any capacity, I'm not sure why you'd choose to watch MLS over Liga MX or EPL or whatever.

    I don't think it being the "top domestic league" carries any significance and I don't think it's any indication of europoseurism or whatever. But the MLS has to compete with every other league in the world for the attention of people that aren't directly served by a team and that's going to be a tough sell.

    I don't know, exactly, what NFL or MLB teams people who live in Montana, New Mexico, or Nebraska root for, but I'm guessing it has a lot to do with whoever their family has historically rooted for and that probably has a lot to do with whatever media coverage they received. But the NFL and MLB also have their own superclubs (Cowboys, Yankees) as well as history and mythos for unaffiliated fans to glom onto. If you've never been to Denver outside of the layovers, but the Rapids are the closest team are you supposed to follow them? Even if you don't have really any access to them and, well, they suck?
     
    owian repped this.
  13. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    NFL and MLB are different in the sense that there are few, if any, viable options for watching a "major league" outside of the US. So if you live in Montana, you are probably going to support one NFL team or another based on factors you describe. Not so with soccer, where there are many non-US choices in addition to MLS. Really, if you don't live near an MLS team, the argument that it's the American league probably doesn't feature too highly in the decision making of many.
     
  14. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    I see your point, though people do choose to support the league, so I maintain that it is a legitimate connection.

    At the same time, boosting local support was an aim of my 64-team league structure.

    That system would be great for local support, which in turn should be better for television because with most of the nation having some kind of rooting interest, the results in the rest of the league becomes important too.

    Now interest might be a little silo'd, as at 64 clubs, the regional divisions would be largely separate, but the ongoing "Champions League"-style tournament for the overall title should hopefully attract more of a national audience.
     
  15. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In fairness, I think this reason is less and less relevant to younger fans now that soccer is pretty well-established. The motivation to pick a team in the domestic league seems weaker now than it used to be. I don't quite feel the missionary zeal I used to, now that it seems like the sport is here to stay.

    This is a fair point, and I generally agree.
     
  16. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I grew up in Nebraska in the 1970's--there wasn't a whole lot of family tradition supporting any NFL team back then, so most kids picked a team based on...whatever. Lots of Steelers fans in my generation, given that they were winning Superbowls when we were kids. One childhood friend had Miami Dolphins bed linen when we were in 1st grade because they'd just won the Superbowl.

    Maybe now, the younger generations are picking up on whatever NFL team their parents root for and it's becoming a family tradition, but almost nobody wears their NFL loyalty on their sleeve anywhere near to the degree they identify with the Huskers.
     
  17. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    I would put money on the (similar) argument that there are more Patriots fans in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia than any CFL team.
     
    bigredfutbol repped this.
  18. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Burnley averaged 4,177 the season they were relegated to D4 compared to 6,233 a year before when they finished in mid-table and under 4,000 when facing relegation from the Football League.

    So much for the lure of a relegation battle.
     
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  19. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    You're probably right. I've not really followed a league before, where there's been no prior established connection to the teams in the league.

    Are some of MLS's detractors right, then? Is it time to "take off the training wheels" and let those with the means and the ambition, just spend freely?

    Or with the EPL TV money and the resources of the UEFA elite to contend with, is that just going to backfire horribly, if/when the spending doesn't elevate MLS to those standards?
     
  20. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    And of course, that 6,223 is more than Burton Albion have ever had, even last season when they finished 20th in the Championship. But then Burnley have won two league titles in their history.
     
  21. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    21k turned up for the Orient game that saved them from relegation from the Football League.

    And, for the nth time, do you think Burnley's attendances would have been so high since then had they been confined to some level of minor league?
     
  22. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    And?
     
  23. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Burnley having been present and successful in the top flight in the past, has a greater and longer lasting impact than the concept of such a thing being available through pro/rel.

    Now of course, pro/rel facilitated that climb in the first place, but as we've discussed before, it would seem that more people are interested in destination than the journey.

    I think it's been well acknowledged that pro/rel is good for a couple of crunch games a season. In this example though, such occasions didn't offset drops in attendance during these rough seasons battling relegation.

    Hard to know. Would a significant amount of lifelong Burnley fans abandon the club because the FA closed up the league?
     
  24. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    My prediction is the latter: uncontrolled spending would still take years to have any meaningful outcome (and maybe not even then - see Rangers) and is more likely to cause financial instability over the necessary increase in profile necessary for the spending to be sustainable.
     
  25. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    I disagree. The possibility of being promoted is a clear driver of attendances in England's lower divisions. I see Burton's crowd when I saw them in the Southern League Midland Division was... 971. And that for a game between the top two against Stourbridge, who eventually beat them to the title. If Burton were still confined to that division, their crowds would likely still be in three figures.

    Absent the ability to promote or relegate, I suspect two things would happen. Firstly, existing fans would be less inclined to turn out at the frequency they currently do. Secondly, it would be more difficult to cultivate a new generation of fans to a team perpetually confined to a minor league.
     

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