The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My Dad told me. I trust him. He said the coverage was so bad they used to miss goals. Of course there was no live coverage of the professional leagues until the late 1980s.

    So this was my idea/fantasy posted in the NASL thread. Imagine how far $250 million plus whatever Palmer and Silva wanted to put in too.

    Plus they'd have huge leverage over the direction of the league.

    Invest the money in USL2. I've included the 3 stooges' teams in USL here and the committed USL expansion teams in USL 1*

    USL 1
    1. Austin*
    2. Birmingham*
    3. Charleston Battery
    4. Charlotte Eagles
    5. Charlotte Independence
    6. Chicago USL*
    7. Colorado Springs Switchbacks FC
    8. El Paso*
    9. FC Cincinnati
    10. Fresno FC
    11. Indy Eleven
    12. Las Vegas Lights FC
    13. Louisville City FC
    14. Memphis*
    15. Nashville SC
    16. North Carolina FC
    17. Oakland*
    18. OKC Energy FC
    19. Orange County SC
    20. Penn FC
    21. Phoenix Rising FC
    22. Pittsburgh Riverhounds SC
    23. Reno 1868 FC
    24. Richmond Kickers
    25. Rio Grande Valley FC Toros
    26. Sacramento Republic FC
    27. Saint Louis FC
    28. San Antonio FC
    29. Tampa Bay Rowdies
    30. Tulsa Roughnecks FC
    USL 2
    1. Bethlehem Steel
    2. Real Monarchs
    3. Seattle 2
    4. Portland 2
    5. Red Bulls 2
    6. Swope Park Rangers
    7. Atlanta 2
    8. LA Galaxy 2
    9. Toronto 2
    10. Miami FC
    11. Jacksonville
    12. Cosmos
    13. South Georgia
    14. Tucson
    15. Greenville
    16. Chattanooga
    17. Connecticut
    18. Milwaukee
    19. Omaha
    20. Rubber City
    21. Charlotte FC
    22. Detroit City
    23. Kingston Stockade ;)
    24. Others
    The idea of having B/2 teams in D3 shouldn't be a problem as it happens in many other countries. Once you increase the number of conferences it shouldn't be so obvious.
     
    barroldinho repped this.
  2. barroldinho

    barroldinho Member+

    Man Utd and LA Galaxy
    England
    Aug 13, 2007
    US/UK dual citizen in HB, CA
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    No, Europe sees football no differently to other industries, hence the Bosman ruling.

    MLS would be a single entity and its clubs franchises.

    Try working in the offshore oil and gas industry and treat each rig, platform, refinery or other physical location as a different company.

    Europe treats clubs as individual companies because they typically are.

    MLS is different so I'm afraid you're wrong on its status.

    Now I don't know if workers can legally refuse to work in a particular location under European law, but if it was part and parcel of employment within the organisation, I doubt you'd be there too long.
     
  3. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I forgot about the possible legal actions between Larry, Curly and Mo and Bill Edwards and Silva's comments about Steve Malik.
     
  4. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    “I haven’t seen the details but I think it’s great if [Commisso] is willing to put up that money to make it go." - Tim Kelly

    I mean, that's basically what I said! But "I haven't seen the details" looks pretty non-committal to me.
     
  5. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's not the case. If someone starts a company, hires 28 players to create 2 teams, and organizes friendly games between them, that's a single business.

    That is effectively what MLS does except teams choose their own players. If players are traded various ways can be used to compensate the selling team, but real money does not exchange hands.

    That's not the case. For instance, MLS forces existing teams to make over half their squad available in the expansion draft. Existing clubs can protect up to 11 players but the rest (with minor exceptions) must be made available to new teams without compensation.

    upload_2018-5-2_16-29-25.png

    This is standard in the US and Canada and also used in Australia.

    Technically yes, MLS could force teams to "buy" or "sell" players but chooses not to.

    A franchise agreement usually includes a clause that allows the franchisor to shut down the franchisee's business if they do not meet certain standards. For instance if a McDonald's franchisee decides that his staff must wear Burger King hats McDonald's can shut him down without compensation.
     
    barroldinho repped this.
  6. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    The issue here is that USL's structure (i.e. single entity/franchise model) runs counter to how they envision a league.

    This does go back to @feyenoordsoccerfan's question about 'leaving the MLS', though. Can a team leave the USL? When Indy11 joined, did they lose rights to their club? Could the Ottawa Fury leave USL for the CPL? Or would they basically need to shut down (or sell) the Fury and start up Ottawa FC or something?
     
  7. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I suspect there is a termination fee as there is/was in NASL. Maybe USL would be willing to waive this fee in the event of Ottawa joining CPL. I know that MLS supports the venture.
     
  8. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    https://www.soctakes.com/2017/10/31/usl-franchise-agreement/
    "The most troubling aspect of the agreement, from the standpoint of those whose personal preferences match the way the sport is structured in the rest of the world, is when it comes to trademarks and intellectual property. If a franchise is not renewed or terminated, the franchisee is obligated to “not compete in a rival league,” defined as the NASL, NPSL or PASL (and perhaps now amended to include UPSL) for two years. In fact, per the franchise agreement, the league can continue to use those trademarks for two years into the future.

    However, if the USL were to fall below the USSF minimum number of teams requirement, teams would be free to move to rival leagues."

    TWO years!
     
  9. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    That would make me extremely apprehensive to join if I owned a club.
     
  10. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It must be negotiable because Charlotte Eagles, Dayton Dutch Lions and Wilmington Hammerheads moved to PDL.
     
  11. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    PDL is still part of USL, though.
     
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  12. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why are you still using FC Twente as an example? Their attendance has been capped by the size of their stadium.. They added 10k seats to their stadium after the 07/08 season and immediately saw a bump up to their new stadium size. Then they added another 6k seats after the 10/11 season and saw a 4k jump in attendance the next season.. Since that time, they've lost 4k in attendance as their performance dropped due to their financial issues..
     
  13. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    PDL is still in the USL.
     
    USRufnex repped this.
  14. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FC Twente has some sort of partnership with Dutch Lions.
     
  15. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    You may be interested in this:-

    http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/

    Shows clubs attendances in the UK since pretty much the inception of the football league, you can see a club by club record too. Shows the post war years were (unsurprisingly) the pinnacle for large attendances but it also shows that right now they are as healthy as they have ever been. The dark hooligan riddled days of the early 80's seems to be when attendances (in the UK anyway) were at their lowest.
     
  16. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Twente has been creating an academy system in the US for some time.. They currently have the Dayton Dutch Lions, Houston Dutch Lions, Cincinnati Dutch Lions, and Florida Gulf Coast Dutch Lions.
     
  17. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Attendances
    That was my era.
     
  18. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Me too! Stamford Bridge was VERY different back then, truth be told it could be pretty unpleasant at times, but at least you could turn up on the day and get a ticket!
     
  19. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Italian attendances are pretty weak in the early stages of the Copa. Maybe the fans have come to expect walkovers.

    Copa Italia 2016/17

    4th round
    Genoa 4–3 (a.e.t.) Perugia - 4,764
    Torino 4–0 (a.e.t.) Pisa - 10,875
    Sampdoria 3–0 Cagliari - 4,479
    Atalanta 3–0 Pescara - 6,344


    5th round
    Milan 2–1 Torino - 13,892
    Lazio 4–2 Genoa - 10,000
    Roma 4–0 Sampdoria - 33,507
     
  20. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It was when we won 2-0 there to go up and there were two pitch invasions. I remember a corner flag whipping past my ear.
     
  21. CrazyJ628

    CrazyJ628 Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    The center of the Earth
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    IIRC USL is not "single entity" like MLS. It's a franchise system similar to MLB so the league owns some intellectual property on each team but the owners own each specific club. USL also has an out clause. Ottawa can (and probably will) leave for the CPL but they have to pay a fee.

    The exit fee is actually pretty typical among american college conferences with the fee being scaled to how much notice a member gives before leaving.
     
  22. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    I was there when we celebrated by running on to the pitch because we had just avoided the drop to the third division by securing a point with a 0-0 draw against Boro'! Never dreamed of an Abramovich happening back then! Though I think the 2 most important people in Chelsea's resurgence are the (unlikeable) Ken Bates and the late great John Neal.
     
  23. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Doesn't work that way in MLS, because of the way the league is structured. Technically, there is only one club in MLS, and it's called Major League Soccer. The individual teams have been given freedom to make their own personnel decisions and the league simply signs the paychecks, but all players are under contract not to the teams but to the league. This is not the same as most franchise arrangements.

    In the early years of the league, the league in fact made some heavy-handed moves, such as reassigning Carlos Valderrama from Miami to Tampa Bay in 1999. MLS did that to keep a star player on the field after the Miami coach dropped him from the squad for for arguing about tactics. There hasn't been anything similar since 1999, but it shows what the league is still technically allowed to do.

    There was an antitrust lawsuit filed against the league over its structure, and the court ruled in the league's favor, finding that players had ample alternative opportunities for employment and MLS was doing nothing unfair to prevent players from going elsewhere. Also note that MLS is doing nothing to prevent other leagues in the US from being sanctioned as Division 1.
     
  24. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    According to that link I pasted, USL keeps the team's IP for two years after leaving. So Ottawa could leave, but they couldn't leave and join CPL as the Fury.
     
  25. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    By which time the team would be dead and buried. So cartelesque...
     

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