Interesting question ... it was Bernd Rupp of Borussia Mönchengladbach. You can watch that goal at the Sportschau homepage by clicking on "1973" on the left: http://www.sportschau.de/sp/sportschau/fussball_1/tdm/flash/tdm.html I think the DFB would have done exactly the same regarding the penalties. A championship win by Schalke in 1972 would not have altered their firm stance on this. Quite possible. Amid all the trouble of the 72-73 season they still made it into the quarterfinal after all. They only got eliminated by Sparta Prague in spring '73. Fighting against relegation, they probably had other things at their mind at that time. Germany did have a bit of a problem at the wings at the start of the 1974 tournament. Heynckes as a left winger was not really blossoming as he could not play his usual role at the club, where he got inside the box time and again to finish. For Germany, there was already Müller in the box so Heynckes had to keep basically a classic winger role of supporting the center forward with crosses and the like. Not his thing actually. But then he got injured early in the World Cup anyway. In the end Bernd Hölzenbein, also not a true winger, took his place. Erwin Kremers (not involved in the scandal but missed the World Cup due to a red card in the last game of the season) would certainly have been a good option for the '74 World Cup team. Stan Libuda I'm not so sure if he would have kept a place in the national team even without the scandal. Even when he was at his prime (late-60s), he never was the unquestioned starter at the right wing. He even lost his place during the 1970 World Cup (to the equally great Jürgen Grabowski), although 1970 is considered his best year with stellar performance against Bulgaria and Peru.
G, if you compare the careers and skills of grabowski and andi moeller, who would you nominate first for a all-time germany team. In the classic XI thread in the world forum hackespitze123 and I were discussing this and he went for moeller while I would go for grabowski in the subs team here : https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=16537977&postcount=87
I doubt there were any starters on the WM74 elf other than if Erwing Kremers didn't get that red card out of the Schalke squad, but I do think there would have been more than Helmut Kremers & Nigbur chosen for the reserves (Fischer or maybe even Lütkebohmert). As for Stan, I think he wouldn't have been a choice even for the EM72 as though Libuda performed well in WM70 against Bulgaria and Peru, Schön was dying to have him pulled out. Like most other German coaches Schön preferred more of a kick & run style wingers rather than a Dribbelkünstler. Btw many people tend to misunderstand that just because Grabowski was chosen over Libuda it didn't mean Grabi was just a kick n' run boy, Grabi was a great midfielder with Eintracht and he could dribble too & so was visa versa with Stan who also played some midfield with S04. Back then great players were mostly overall great footballers not depending only at one position.
Interesting thread, glad you and Hacke subtly moved the discussion from the standard "WhatsthebestBrazil-XI" talk to the far more interesting "WhatsthebestGermany-XI" talk ... a fine move. I would certainly always opt for Grabowski, Möller doesn't even cross my mind when I think about a Germany All-Time XI, which I admit has something to do with me not particularly liking Andreas Möller as a person.
Assumed there had been no Schalke-involvement in the '71 Bundesliga scandal, the following players would have been serious candidates for the '74 WM (in order of likeliness): Klaus Fischer, Erwin Kremers, Rolf Rüssmann, Norbert Nigbur, Klaus Fichtel, Helmut Kremers, Reinhard Libuda. A bit unlikely: Jürgen Sobieray, Herbert Lütkebohmert. This is how Helmut Schön's 1974 World Cup squad looked like. Imagined there had been no ban on the scandal-involved Schalke players Fischer, Rüssmann, Fichtel and Libuda as well as no red card for Erwin Kremers, whose place would the Schalker take in this squad? My suggestions in bold: 1 GK Sepp Maier 2 DF Berti Vogts 3 DF Paul Breitner 4 DF Hans-Georg Schwarzenbeck 5 DF Franz Beckenbauer 6 DF Horst-Dieter Höttges -> Rolf Rüssmann 7 MD Herbert Wimmer 8 MD Bernhard Cullmann -> Klaus Fichtel 9 FW Jürgen Grabowski 10 MD Günther Netzer 11 FW Jupp Heynckes 12 MD Wolfgang Overath 13 FW Gerd Müller 14 FW Uli Hoeness 15 MD Heinz Flohe 16 MD Rainer Bonhof 17 FW Bernd Hölzenbein -> Klaus Fischer 18 FW Dieter Herzog -> Erwin Kremers 19 FW Jupp Kappellmann -> Reinhard Libuda 20 MD Helmut Kremers 21 GK Norbert Nigbur 22 GK Wolfgang Kleff I don't think Schön had a problem with Libuda's style of play. There was always a shortage of classy wingers in those days. Libuda proved that his style of play was paying off well in 1970, Schön would have been dumb trying to get rid of such a fine winger. Let's have a look at German international games between the end of the 1970 World Cup & the last game of 1971 (before the scandal prevented players involved in it to play for Germany): 09/1970 3-1 Hungary: Libuda in squad, plays second half (instead of Löhr) 10/1970 1-1 Turkey: Libuda in squad, plays 90 mins 11/1970 0-2 Yugoslavia: dito 11/1970 3-1 Greece: dito 02/1971 1-0 Albania: Libuda in squad, but doesn't play (Grabowski in his place) 04/1971 3-0 Turkey: Libuda in squad, but doesn't play (Grabowski does) 06/1971 2-0 Albania: Libuda not in squad (for the first time since February 70) 06/1971 7-1 Norway: Libuda not in squad 06/1971 0-1 Sweden: dito 06/1971 3-1 Denmark: dito 09/1971 5-0 Mexico: Libuda in squad, plays last 25 minutes (in place of Grabowski) 10/1971 3-1 Poland: Libuda not in squad 11/1971 0-0 Poland: Libuda in squad, plays 90 mins For the next game in March 1972, Libuda was not called up anymore, as the unclear involvement of the Schalke players in the scandal prevented Schön from calling them up anymore. This shows that Libuda - except for the Scandinavian tour in June 1971 - was almost always part of Schön's squad and did play fairly regularly in 1970-71. Grabowski was a very revered player in the 1970s, be it as winger or as midfield maestro. In the latter incarnation he was basically very near the level of Overath and Netzer. However he never played the attacking midfield role for Germany hence his reputation as a great midfielder these days is not remotely close to Netzer's or Overath's (who played that position all their career, contrary to Grabowski). By the way, you spoke of the 1972 German Cup final. Here's a clip of the semi final between Schalke and Köln (Köln had won the first game 4-1, Schalke won the second 5-2). Famous for the 21 penalties... [youtube]y4UNrD64K4E[/youtube]
I thought Schön had lots of good wingers but I suppoe that most of those players were versatile and could adapt to that position.
[youtube]Px0OLrQSlHY[/youtube] Rank #13 Borussia Mönchengladbach 3 Bayern Munich 1 Place: Mönchengladbach, Bökelberg Time: Wednesday, 8 p.m.. Date: 14 April 1971 Attendance: 30,000 Referee: Herden (Hamburg) Goal Scorers: 1-0 Netzer 37 2-0 Le Fevre 56 2-1 Mrosko 66 3-1 Laumen 83 Commentary: The setting before the top game of the 1970-71 Bundesliga season was that Borussia Mönchengladbach had accumulated 36-14 points with a goals difference of +32 with Bayern at second place on 34-16 points and a goals difference of +24. For Bayern it thus was vital to either draw or win. A defeat had to be avoided at all costs. But avoiding a defeat at Mönchengladbach’s Bökelberg stadium would prove too difficult a task, as the holders were in a league of their own in 1971. Even Bayern with its super stars could not prevent their side from getting torn apart in the tornado that Gladbach were about to unleash. Only seconds after the kick-off, Franz Beckenbauer started his first deep foray into the Gladbach half. The Kaiser soloed effortlessly from the midline straight to the box, beating off no less than six opponents on his way, the ball always close at his feet. In the box he hit the ball massively but a Gladbach defender managed to deflect it and thus cleared the ball to a corner. A great deal of applause for the Kaiser. But from the on, the home side took over control. Günter Netzer tried his luck with a thunderous shot that Sepp Maier couldn’t control, the ball fell to the feet of Horst Köppel but his shot was parried by Maier with a lightning fast parade! The atmosphere in the packed Bökelberg stadium was full of expectancy and anticipation. Sepp Maier did look a tad nervous with the raging spectators behind him, but he wasn’t the only Bayern player that appeared to be intimidated, the whole side looked nervous. Austrian full back Peter Pumm almost placed a back pass into his own goal! Three times did Sepp Maier let the ball drop down after crosses and Bayern were lucky that no Gladbach forward was around exploiting Maier’s lapses. After 11 minutes Franz 'Bulle' Roth got booked after a bad foul on the dangerous Günter Netzer, who had dumdfounded him in great fashion. Up to that point Gladbach had exercised a tremendous powerplay on the Bayern goal, as if they were one goal down in the last ten minutes! After this foul on Netzer finally Beckenbauer and his defense got a chance for a breather. Beckenbauer used the pause to order his defense more effectively, something he didn’t get a chance to do in the first ten minutes, so crushing were Gladbach’s constant attacks. In the 13th minute, Paul Breitner first fouled Herbert Laumen then Günter Netzer, trying to take the pace out of Gladbach’s game. But Gladbach still remained very dangerous in attack, although their immediate pressure ebbed away. Bayern managed to release themselves from some of the pressure of the hosts between the 15th and the 30th minute by starting several dexterous counter attacks. Relying on counter attacks was in fact Bayern manager Udo Lattek’s original gameplan for the difficult game. Piercing whistles from the Gladbach crowd after Franz Beckenbauer had brought down his teammate from the national side (and darling of the crowd), Berti Vogts! The energetic full back had to receive treatment at the sidelines. From now on all of Beckenbauer’s actions were accompanied by boos and whistles. Paul Breitner had a great scene in the 27th minute when he thrusted deep into the Gladbach half but his shot just missed the goal going over the top. Around that time Franz Roth started to limp, very bitter for Bayern as Roth was intended to cover Günter Netzer, but it became obvious that the injured Roth was useless and thus had to leave the pitch. Into the bargain, Roth was also struggling with his nerves as he started to row with the referee! Looking for the game and Netzer would have been smarter. At some time, Gladbach’s stifling domination simply had to pay off and that moment came in the 36th minute. From 18 yards, Netzer had the opportunity to shoot unmarked and the ball left his right foot like a torpedo and smashed into the back of Bayern net way above Sepp Maier: 1-0! Netzer had torn down the spell surrounding the Bayern goal! Gladbach players and fans celebrated enthusiastically, finally their efforts had paid off and in what brilliant fashion! But almost Bayern’s right wing Edgar Schneider would have scored the equalizer after a freekick a minute later. His diagonal shot from inside right position only just missed Kleff’s goal. After that scene Roth finally had to leave the pitch after he tried for a while to keep going on. Roth had suffered a strain and in his place came young Uli Hoeness, who himself had just been cured from a toe injury. After Netzer’s goal the game had calmed down a bit but at the stroke of half-time Gladbach scored a second goal but it wasn’t given due to an off-side position. The Bayern camp was of course aware that in order to achieve anything here at Mönchengladbach they would have had to play with far more energy, resolute and determination. Shortly after the break Edgar Schneider wasted another fine opportunity, but the upper part of his body leaned back too much and thus instead of simply tapping the ball over the goalline he shovelled it over the top of the goal! Then great luck to Bayern on the other side as Horst Köppel failed to exploit a misundestanding between Beckenbauer and Breitner. Ten minutes into the second half, the game having been more balanced than in the first half, Rainer Zobel brought down Jupp Heynckes only inches before the penalty box. Now came Günter Netzer’s great freekick show. Gently he laid the ball down on the ground, lifted it up again then laid it down again. It took him a while before had placed the ball in the most optimal way, the crowd watching in joyous anticipation. Then finally Netzer executed the freekick, swerving the ball in a masterly way above the head of the Bayern defenders straight onto Maier’s goal. But instead of falling into the net, the ball hit the crossbar! From there the ball bounced back, straight to Jupp Heynckes who headed it towards the Bayern goal, but incredibly, the ball yet again hit the crossbar! The third try came from Dane Ulrik Le Fevre, who finally kicked the ball into the Bayern goal! 2-0! An amazing scene! Everything now pointed towards a victory of the home side. With this score, Gladbach would increase their lead over Bayern to four points! Only minutes later Bayern were lucky that a goal by Jupp Heynckes wasn’t given due to an off-side position: After a mistake by Beckenbauer, Heynckes had beat off Sepp Maier and shot the ball over the goalline among the thunderous roar of the crowd but Herbert Laumen stood off-side. If that goal had been allowed, a disastrous debacle would have loomed for Bayern. Then Le Fevre wasted a great, almost absolutely safe chance at scoring the third goal! The crowd couldn’t believe it but at the same time scenes like that further increased the great atmosphere inside the stadium. Then came the 66th minute. Paul Breitner had entered the Gladbach box from the inside left position, then crossed the ball sharply towards the penalty box where Charly Mrosko was lurking who firmly hit the ball into Kleff’s goal: 2-1! This goal visibly gave Bayern an upswing. Only one more goal and they would have accomplished the impossible, taking a point back to Munich from the feared Bökelberg! Things didn’t look good for the hosts as 'Man of the Match' Günter Netzer, who had run completely out of power due to his forceful, energy-consuming play during the first hour, had to leave the pitch and in his place young Jürgen Wloka entered it. Clearly a weakening for Borussia, who up to that point had harmonized better than the guests. Bayern now did everything in their powers to score a second goal. Gerd Müller had a neat chance 15 minutes before time but he didn’t act resolute enough when the 2-2 was possible. But Gladbach did not let themselves up. Their attacks had always been exercised with more drive and zest and Bayern had run out of energy to really stage an effective powerplay on the Gladbach goal. After 83 minutes, the pacey Herbert Wimmer got behind the Bayern defense on the right wing, he swung a cross sharply before the Bayern goalmouth where Herbert Laumen struck: 3-1! 30,000 Gladbach supporters celebrated their side’s third goal effusively! Gladbach leading by two goals only mirrored their supremacy over the Bavarian guests in this clash. The only Bayern player able to keep up with Gladbach was Franz Beckenbauer, who presented himself in tremendous shape. But he alone was not enough to resist the Gladbach onslaught although Paul Breitner, Rainer Zobel, Charlie Mrosko, Johnny Hansen and later Uli Hoeness tried their best to support Beckenbauer’s efforts. All in all, Gladbach had won this prestigious encounter deservedly, having been the more passionate side, showing arch rivals Bayern their limits. Gladbach was simply more creative, their play was full of ideas and invention and more agile in every aspects than the at times clumsy Bayern players. 15 internationals had been on the pitch that evening (twelve Germans, two Danes and one Austrian), thus expectations had been high and the game met, even surpassed all expectations. While Günter Netzer was on the pitch, he reigned supremely, conducting the attacks and threading together Gladbach’s combinations. He also didn’t spare with shots, spinned corner balls and freekicks that posed great problems to Sepp Maier and the Bayern defense. Bayern’s main deficiencies had again been their ineffective wings. On the other side Gladbach had demonstrated how devastating effective wings could be, time and again baring Bayern’s defense. Gladbach’s best player had been Günter Netzer and after him Berti Vogts, Ludwig Luggi Müller and Jupp Heynckes. In the press conference after the game Bayern manager Udo Lattek stated: "Borussia’s cast is on average better than ours. Their players are smarter and they have more experience. Gladbach has won deservedly due to their many great opportunities at scoring." And Hennes Weisweiler said: "It was a gama loaded with fight and drama and a deserved victory. Just in time did we find our right form again. However Dietrich, Netzer and Heynckes were injured. Fortunately our youngsters Wloka and Bonhof proved that we can rely on them anytime." The manager of the German national team, Helmut Schön, was of course also inside the stadium and had to say the following afterwards: "A great game with spice and everything just like one wishes. To me Gladbach won deservedly. Despite some fouls it was an all-around fair game." Gerd Müller had had a pretty quiet game and he duly complained after the game: "Without wings one can’t win. I was standing there in the middle alone against two players and felt pretty forlorn getting no support from anywhere." Special mention must go to the Gladbach crowd who supported their side tremendously. The Bayern officials admitted their envy upon this home support, complaining that they would never get supported like that by their own fans at home. --------------------------------Borussia Mönchengladbach ------------------------------------------------Kleff -------------------------------Vogts----Sieloff----L.Müller----Bleidick -----------------------------------Wimmer---Netzer---Laumen ----------------------------------Köppel---Heynckes---Le Fevre ------------------------------------Manager: Hennes Weisweiler -----------------------------------------Bayern Munich --------------------------------Mrosko------G.Müller----E.Schneider --------------------------------Breitner--------Roth---------Zobel -------------------------Pumm-Schwarzenbeck-Beckenbauer--Hansen -------------------------------------------------Maier ---------------------------------------Manager: Udo Lattek ---------------------------------------Subs: ---------------------------------------39 Hoeness in, Roth out ---------------------------------------69 J.Wloka in, Netzer out ---------------------------------------79 Bonhof in, Heynckes out
Though who knows how both of them had blossomed during the ban and/or suspension. I only mentioned Aki coz somewhere I've read Schön once showed an interst on him for the future circa 1971, but anyway with Hucky and Bonhof I think there was no chance to be included at WM74. Sobieray as well had no chance. Although Eißbein screwed up by giving the path to that goal by Spaarwasser, I think at that time ,before the WM it he had to be chosen coy of his experience (WM66, WM70, EM72) and versatility (could play at any position in defense). Besides the starting 4 at the back Schön took Eißbein (RB & Stopper), Helmut Kremers (LB & Midfield) and Cullmann (Libero & Defensive Midfield) as reserves. Fichtel had a verz long career and therefore at the age of 30 especially as a Central defender or Libero would have been young enough, but though I was and still am a huge Geisböcke hater I do admit Cullmann a great player at that time. Since there Gerd was the only classic striker, I think Klaus could have been a choice and Erwin for sure. Although Schön could have not resist a talent like Stan, I still think he didn't find the most comfort with Stan's style or maybe even with his personalty. A bit like Netzer-Overath situation though Schön used Netzer as his main tool at EM72 before 1970 and after he left to Real. Before Netzer was used as a regular I think it was coz the the style that seemed to have differed from the NT and being more of a soloist. I think Gladbach & Bayern players got together very well until they won the EM72 & Bayern winning consecutive liga titles, Bayern players' power and voices got more into Schön's account. My point is that I don't think it was just because Netzer left to Real and some injuries before the WM74 was not ONLY reason he was left out. Anyway I see Stan vs. Grabi were all supurb players and I think either options would have paid off, but just want to state there would have other factors even if there were no scandals. Btw, I wonder if Erwin was included (without a Red card), he would've worn #11 and Jupp#9 like at EM72. What number would Grabi then have worn?
My Traum Kadar would have been: 1 GK Sepp Maier 2 DF Berti Vogts 3 DF Paul Breitner 4 DF Hans-Georg Schwarzenbeck 5 DF Franz Beckenbauer 6 DF Horst-Dieter Höttges 7 FW Reinhard Libuda 8 MD Herbert Wimmer 9 FW Klaus Fischer 10 MD Günther Netzer 11 FW Jupp Heynckes 12 MD Wolfgang Overath 13 FW Gerd Müller 14 MD Uli Hoeness 15 MD Heinz Flohe 16 MD Rainer Bonhof 17 FW Erwin Kremers 18 MD Bernhard Cullmann 19 MD Jürgen Grabowski 20 DF Helmut Kremers 21 GK Norbert Nigbur 22 GK Wolfgang Kleff My Traum-Elf would have been: ---------------------Meier Vogts----Beckenbauer----Höttges----Breitner -------Grabowski----Netzer----Overath ---------Libuda-----Müller----Heynckes POSSESSION FOOTY!!!
There is an Elf that I've really wished to watch for WM70 (Netzer added) agains a Italian Traum-Elf of mine (Salvadore added). ---------------------Meier Vogts----Beckenbauer----Schnellinger----Höttges ---------------Netzer----Overath -----Libuda-----Müller---Seeler---Grabowski Manager: Helmut Schön Ref. Klein (ISR) - i/o ridiculous Yamasaki (MEX) ---------Riva------Anastasi----Mazzola ---de Sisti----------Rivera-------Domenghini Facchetti------Rosato---Salvadore--Burgnich ---------------------Zoff Manager: Enzo Bearzot (i/o Valcareggi)
Highlights of the mentioned 7-1 between Gladbach and Inter: [YOUTUBE]QeTJSKm8tHc[/YOUTUBE] Btw, very nice thread, I read it from page 1 in the last two days.
Gregoriak, Thanks for the post...my uncle (Fritz Popp) played for FC Nuremberg and today was the first time I have seen the FC Nuremberg/Bayern Munchen video (#18)...what a treat. You made my year! Thanks, Vino
Wow, seriously? Well, I think to know him (German champion 1968 and player promoter these days) . Can't remember how many Fürth players he placed to the 1 BL ... and hope he won't dare finding a new club for my friend Schröcki (unless it's BMG). @ Lascho Nice clip ... but I think it's the wrong thread (the "classic clips" thread would be the right choice).
I must confess that I was attracted by two other clubs in the late 70's Bundesliga, I mean other than my beloved Schalke04... I started to take interests to those clubs when my fav Schalke players moved to those clubs. First club was Hertha Berlin (S04 being HB's most hated clubs) with Nigbur between the post, and second was Die Roten Teufel 1. FC Kaiserslautern (How could I like a club in red!) with of course Hans "Spargeltarzan" Bongartz. In HsBc's case though there were good players like Beer, Sidka, Sziedat, and "whatever happened to this guy?" Granitza, I was so focused to watch my cult hero Nigbur. In KFC's case (KFC?) FCK's case though it started with Bongy the team itself was really exciting to watch. There was already a little bit of respect when Ronald Sandberg used to play exciting matches with them (Ronald had ended his career with a serious knee injury). FCK was the clubs for the Swedes (though S04 had one too a guy named Lennart Larrson. I had followed the Swedes quiet closely since I watched Ralf Edström at WM74 and later was blown out of his acting when it costed a goal while he was tying the Super Kido FIMPEN (a kid size of Ralf's arm) at the movie where the whole NT squad of Sweden were present in real. Where was I..... The FCK in late 70's with Bongartz, Briegel, Pirrung and 3 tops: Geye, Toppmöller, Sanderg's replacement Swede Benny Wendt was suddenly an exciting title contender whereas they were more of a stable midtable club for a years. Had they kept Klaus Toppmöller for few more saison.... Anyway, what suprises me with this match (finally to the topic) is that all 6 goals were excited to watch with great set ups as well (Benny wow!). I could easly asume that the whole match would have been really entertaining to watch. Great choice (as usual) Grego!
I found this on the UEFA website and it mentions one of the games in this countdown. What does everyone think of the others and how do they compare? http://www.uefa.com/competitions/uefacup/news/kind=1/newsid=822343.html
Very interesting find! It looks like the author who selected the games (who I cannot praise enough for actually digging them out and writing about them...) used a one-sided scoreline as his main criteria. Maybe two games should have been featured in this as well, Werder beating Hamburg 3-2 in the 1982-83 season and Werder's 4-0 victory in Hamburg in the 1964-65 season (also featured in this thread). Certainly more momentous games than that 5-0 from 1968.