And before him, peruvian Jose Soriano, keeper and captain of "La Maquina" de River Plate from mid 40's.
South America produced very good keepers in all his history, the 1st world class was the uruguayan Cayetano Saporiti in the 10's, behind him, argentinians Carlos Isola and Carlos Wilson. In the 20's the superclass was Americo Tesoriere, behind him Mazali and chilean Manuel Guerrero. The 30's the most relevant keepers were Juan Valdivieso (Peru), Fernando Bello (Arg) & Ballestrero (Uru). The 40's the superclass was Livingstone, others magnificient goalies were Juan Honores & Jose Soriano (Peru), Sebastian Gualco (Arg), Anibal Paz (Uru), Vicente Araya (Bol). In the 50's excellents goalies were Julio Cozzi, Musimesi & R.Dominguez (Arg), Barbosa & Castilho (Bra), Maspoli (Uru), Rafael Asca & Walter Ormeño (Peru), Sinforiano Garcia & Adolfo Riquelme (Par), "Caiman" Sanchez (Col) & Alfredo Bonnard (Ecu) The 60's were owned for the best SA keepers of history: Carrizo & Mazurkiewicz, others brilliant goalies were Roma, Santoro, Cejas (Arg), Gilmar, Manga (Bra). In the 70's were on his top form Fillol & Gatti (in the top-5 SA keepers), others good keepers: HH.Ballesteros (Argentinian naturalized peruvian), Leao (Bra) Ever Almeida (Uruguayan naturalized paraguayan), P.Zape (Col). In 80's the best were Roberto Rojas (Chi) & Roberto Fernandez (Par), behind them R.Rodriguez (Uru), Pumpido (Arg). In 90's the most recognized was Chilavert (Par), other good keepers were Taffarel (Bra), Higuita & O.Cordoba (Col) This decade, good keepers were: Dida, Abbondanzieri, Julio Cesar & Rogerio Ceni.
Sorry for no continuing writing in English... Como alguien lo explico antes, Chilavert era un buen arquero, hasta un gran arquero, pero no excelente. En mi opinion, mejores cualidades como arquero, tenia Oscar Cordoba. Chilavert sera recordado por sus dotes de lider y capitan, era el alma de su equipo, capaz de intimidar a sus rivales y ganar un partido con sus goles de penal o media distancia. Es un caso similar al de Obdulio Varela, el mas grande lider y capitan que tuvo cualquier equipo de futbol. Pero tecnicamente, analizando solo sus cualidades, habian mejores halves en su epoca como Rossi (Arg), Danilo (Bra), C.Heredia (Per).
Taffarel was a good keeper, mentioned in the top-10 keepers in some years for the IFFHS. But, he was only very good keeper, not excellent. The same happened with Gilmar, a good keeper who was part of the best Brazil. The history said, that the weakest point of Brazilian teams were always their goalies.
I had a look at the RB list and aside from personal bias, I found it surprising that no Italian RBs made the Top 10. Surely the so-called masters of defence should have a player in the Top 10 and Top Five in all defensive positions. Despite his success with Juve and being a World Cup winner, I'm not sure if I'd rate Foni as Italy's 3rd best RB. Most people would rate Rosetta and Burgnich higher than him. You seem to know a lot about Crompton and you have rated him in many lists. I don't know much about him so he wouldn't have made my Top 10. You also hold Bergmark in a very high regard too. All I really know of him is that he played in the 1958 World Cup. Good to see Minelli in the list. A star of the 30s in the Swiss Bolt or verrou system. Djalma Santos at #1 doesn't surprise me. He had longevity and won two World Cups. He pretty much set the standard for modern right-backs, especially Cafu, who I think is too high at #2. He was great at overlapping but like most Brazilians, I didn't find anything appealing about his defensive game. My Top 10: 1. Djalma Santos 2. Gentile 3. Nasazzi 4. Vogts 5. Cafu 6. J Zanetti 7. Bergomi 8. Amoros 9. Thuram 10. Burgnich Gentile's positioning is more due to bias. He's my all-time favourite defender. Cafu is higher than Zanetti because of his better trophy cabernet and he is a bit in this role than Zanetti. I personally prefer Zanetti because of his leadership and versatility. IMO, he is better defensively.
Where is Carlos Alberto? (who was selected as World Best Starting XI of 20th century - ahead of D.Santos)
He was a star at Mexico 70 and he captained that great Brazilian team but I feel that's the reason why people think that he is one of the best. He did well at club level, winning trophies at Fluminense and Santos but I feel that the 10 RBs I listed were better than him. I looked at the list and where is Domingos da Guia?
First of all, I want to congratulate you, Comme for the excellent work, I don't see any similar in other sites. That's an amazing work. So, as a contribution from South American point of view, there's some positions, that SA historical rankings, considered different that Europeans does. For example, we considered the full backs in the pyramids system (Nasazzi or Domingos da Guia), as equivalent to centerbacks (Lucio, Ayala or Passarella), since they played near the area or defending the center of the defense line. The right & left half (Andrade or Evaristo) are similar to the actual lateral defenders (Cafu, Carlos Alberto, etc.), since they had the mission to cover the flanks of the defense or marking to the wingers or outside forwards. When South Americans teams began to play WM system, the old halves became right & left backs (i.e Rodriguez Andrade, Lombardo, etc). This happened in most of the SA teams. The centerback position wasn't covered for the centerhalf like europeans teams used to do, that CB position was ocuppied for one of the old fullbacks (i.e Dellacha, William Martinez). The old centrehalf in SA teams, still played in midfield position as one of the 2 halves in WM system (i.e Rossi, Brandaozinho). It was a different changes of playing roles here. As the majority knows, the changes from Pyramid to WM system in SA teams was happened in early 50's years, and the 4-2-4 system began to used in the early 60's. PS. sorry for my english writing
No need to apologise, you write very well. A very interesting post as well in terms of how the tactical developments in different countries influence opinions on the current day equivalent positions. I was aware that Nasazzi had often been considered to be the first sweeper (at least in Europe), because previously the Pyramid formation (2-3-5) had seen the two full-backs playing alongside each other. In contrast Nasazzi often played behind his partner in defence and swept up. He is though in England at least still often reflected as his nominal position (number 2) as a right-fullback. I tried to reflect that a bit in his profile. Domingos da Guia I had always understood as being a central defender, though this had confused me because of the fact that the WM was so late to develop in S America. I have included him among my central defenders (yet to be put up). Was he nominally a right or left back? Also in England at least positions tended to get a bit confused because the terminolody of the pyramid continued well into the 1950s and 1960s, even after teams had started the move towards a 4-4-2. So for instance at Spurs in the 1960s on team sheets there was the suggestions that the team still played a pyramid, when in fact that was not the case. As such Danny Blanchflower and Dave Mackay were regarded as a right and left half respectively, when in reality they were central midfielders. Maurice Norman was called a centre-half, but in fact he was the third back. That has really helped to cause confusion in England about the positions that pre-war players did play. But thanks again for a fascinating post!
Well he was England's first choice for about 20 years in an era in which they were beyond question the strongest side in the world. He won over 40 caps and was for a while the world's most capped player. In the current era he'd have won around 200 caps if he had enjoyed the same dominance.
I think you have Oliver Kahn rated a few places too low-I would take him over Pat Jennings, and you can make a case that he was better than Southall. That fact that Kahn had an advantage playing for a far greater footballing nation, can't be held against him (which I suspect some people would do vs Jennings and Southall). Looking at his achievements as a player...I think he should be a bit higher: Bayern Munich * Bundesliga: 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2008 * German Cup: 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2008 * DFB-Ligapokal: 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2004, 2007 * UEFA Cup: 1996 * UEFA Champions League: 2001 * Intercontinental Cup: 2001 International * UEFA European Championship: 1996 Individual * UEFA Champions League Man of the Match: 2001 * UEFA Fair-Play Award: 2001 * German Footballer of the Year: 2000, 2001 * Runner Up FIFA World Player of the Year: 2002 * IFFHS World's Best Goalkeeper: 1999, 2001, 2002 * Best European Goalkeeper: 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 * European Footballer of the Year Bronze Ball: 2001, 2002 * UEFA Club Football Awards - Best Goalkeeper: 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 * Best Bundesliga Keeper: 1994, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002 * FIFA World Cup Golden Ball: 2002 * Yashin Award: 2002 * FIFA World Cup awards: All-Star Team 2002
Thank you Comme. That's right, Nasazzi could be considered the 1st sweeper, at least in SA, because, as you said well, he played behind the other fullback, Arispe in the Olympics or Mascheroni in WC. Even in "the Maracanazo", Matias Gonzalez played as a sweeper, maybe influenced by the Swiss Verrou, but the Uruguayans usually played that way. I'm not sure, but I think that uruguayan called the role that played Tejera, Arispe, Mascheroni as "defensor rompedor". And the faster or younger back played as a "sweeper". By the way, talking about old "celestes", there's an interesting article, explain how offensive tactic, changed when Petrone replaced Jose Piendibene, 1st withdrawn centreforward??? http://www.tenfieldigital.com.uy/servlet/hntdide?0,0,5/,7,44563,1,7,0
Heving seen them both, I would take Southall every time. Despite the honours, there's no comparison between playing for Bayern & Germany against Everton & Wales. If Southall had played for a major nation he would be top 5 in most peoples books, it's just unfortunate that most people never saw him at his best. The Heysel ban hurt him as much as it hurt John Barnes and Peter Beardsley in robbing them of their best club years.
Sounds impressive. 20 years in a strong national team is very good record. A bit like Matthaeus and the number of years he was in the West German/German team, just to use a modern example. In the publications I've read, mostly World Cup books, Domingos Da Guia was a right-back. I'm sure the South American posters can give more details on how he was used tactically. From what I've read, he was a great reader of the game and knew how to dribble from defence.
It's always going to be difficult to compare someone like Crompton to the modern greats as there's almost a century between them, but the sheer number of his caps is quite incredible. To put it into context, of all other pre-WWI players and excluding England amateur caps, the next most capped England player had 26 caps (so Crompton had over 50% appearances than anyone else for England) and only 7 others managed to get over 20 caps. It was also almost 40 years before his record was broken.
Comme, will you provide an overview list for reference for the right backs as you did with the goalkeepers? https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=19351309&postcount=102
These are the best goalkeepers country-by-country: Top Goalkeepers by Country GERMANY (11) 92. Bodo Ilgner 89. Toni Turek 86. Bert Trautmann 84. Heinrich Stuhlfauth 81. Hans Jakob 72. Andreas Köpke 68. Hans Tilkowski 39. Jürgen Croy 25. Harald Schumacher 16. Oliver Kahn 07. Sepp Maier ITALY (9) 90. Aldo Olivieri 58. Gianluca Pagliuca 52. Angelo Peruzzi 48. Giuliano Sarti 44. Enrico Albertosi 32. Walter Zenga 20. Giampiero Combi 08. Gianluigi Buffon 03. Dino Zoff ENGLAND (7) 70. Harry Hibbs 60. David Seaman 40. Samuel Hardy 36. Ray Clemence 33. Frank Swift 06. Gordon Banks 04. Peter Shilton SPAIN (7) 94. Paco Buyo 62. Luis Arconada 42. José Ángel Iríbar 38. Andoni Zubizarreta 31. Iker Casillas 28. Antoni Ramallets 05. Ricardo Zamora ARGENTINA (5) 80. Américo Tesoriere 64. Hugo Orlando Gatti 55. Antonio Roma 17. Ubaldo Matildo Fillol 11. Amadeo Raúl Carrizo BRAZIL (5) 100.Carlos Jose Castilho 85. Barbosa 73. Manga 54. Émerson Leão 18. Gilmar dos Santos Neves HOLLAND (4) 71. Hans van Breukelen 65. Eddy Pieters Graafland 46. Jan van Beveren 41. Edwin van der Sar USSR (4) 51. Yevgheni Rudakov 27. Alexej Khomitch 21. Rinat Dasaev 01. Lev Yashin BELGIUM (4) 88. Jean Nicolay 56. Jean De Bie 45. Michel Preud'homme 19. Jean-Marie Pfaff HUNGARY (4) 98. Antal Szabo 59. Franz Platko 37. Károly Zsák 10. Gyula Grosics URUGUAY (4) 91. Rodolfo Rodriguez 35. Roque Gaston Máspoli 24. Andrés Mazali 15. Ladislao Mazurkiewicz PORTUGAL (4) 96. Manuel Bento 83. Vitor Baia 69. Vítor Damas 34. Alberto Costa Pereira
That's a lot of German's bunched close together. Thanks for the summary Greg, you can miss little things like this just going off the main thread.
He was also rated "world class" by Kicker magazine in 1996, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001 and 2002. Since Kicker magazine started rating players in 1956, only three players have been rated "world class" more often by them (Beckenbauer, Seeler & Vogts).
I think these are worthy of their own thread, lest they are completely lost in a sea of posts in this thread.
Here are the overview of his impressive lists: Goalkeepers 100. CASTILHO, Carlos José (Brasil) 99. FRIEDEL, Brad (Estados Unidos) 98. SZABÓ, Antal (Hungría) 97. SIMEONOV, Simeon (Bulgaria) 96. MANUEL BENTO (Portugal) 95. BELL, Joseph-Antoine (Camerún) 94. PACO BUYO (España) 93. SCOTT, Elisha (Irlanda del Norte) 92. ILLGNER, Bodo (Alemania) 91. RODRÍGUEZ, Rodolfo (Uruguay) 90. OLIVIERI, Aldo (Italia) 89. TUREK, Toni (Alemania) 88. NICOLAY, Jean (Bélgica) 87. CURKOVIC, Ivan (Yugoslavia) 86. TRAUTMANN, Bert (Alemania) 85. BARBOSA (Brasil) 84. STUHLFAUTH, Heinrich (Alemania) 83. BAÍA, Vítor (Portugal) 82. KELSEY, Jack (Gales) 81. JAKOB, Hans (Alemania) 80. TESORIERE, Américo (Argentina) 79. SOSKIC, Milutin (Yugoslavia) 78. NAYDENOV, Georgi (Bulgaria) 77. HIGUITA, René (Colombia) 76. SIMPSON, Ronnie (Escocia) 75. CHAYRIGUES, Pierre (Francia) 74. DARUI, Julien (Francia) 73. MANGA (Brasil) 72. KÖPKE, Andreas (Alemania) 71. VAN BREUKELEN, Hans (Holanda) 70. HIBBS, Harry (Inglaterra) 69. DAMAS, Vítor (Portugal) 68. TILKOWSKI, Hans (Alemania) 67. MLYNARCZYK, József (Polonia) 66. CARBAJAL, Antonio (México) 65. PIETERS GRAAFLAND, Eddy (Holanda) 64. GATTI, Hugo (Argentina) 63. CHILAVERT, José Luis (Paraguay) 62. ARCONADA, Luis Miguel (España) 61. N'KONO, Thomas (Camerún) 60. SEAMAN, David (Inglaterra) 59. PLATKO, Franz (Hungría) 58. PAGLIUCA, Gianluca (Italia) 57. GREGG, Harry (Irlanda del Norte) 56. DE BIE, Jean (Bélgica) 55. ROMA, Antonio (Argentina) 54. ÉMERSON LEAO (Brasil) 53. RAVELLI, Thomas (Suecia) 52. PERUZZI, Angelo (Italia) 51. RUDAKOV, Yevhen (Unión Soviética) 50. SVENSSON, Karl-Oskar (Suecia) 49. BARTHEZ, Fabien (Francia) 48. SARTI, Giuliano (Italia) 47. SCHROJF, Viliam (Checoslovaquia) 46. VAN BEVEREN, Jan (Holanda) 45. PREUD'HOMME, Michel (Bélgica) 44. ALBERTOSI, Enrico (Italia) 43. LIVINGSTONE, Sergio (Chile) 42. IRIBAR, José Ángel (España) 41. VAN DER SAR, Edwin (Holanda) 40. HARDY, Sam (Inglaterra) 39. CROY, Jürgen (Alemania) 38. ZUBIZARRETA, Andoni (España) 37. ZSÁK, Károly (Hungría) 36. CLEMENCE, Ray (Inglaterra) 35. MÁSPOLI, Roque (Uruguay) 34. COSTA PEREIRA, Alberto (Portugal) 33. SWIFT, Frank (Inglaterra) 32. ZENGA, Walter (Italia) 31. CASILLAS, Íker (España) 30. ZEMAN, Walter (Austria) 29. VIKTOR, Ivo (Checoslovaquia) 28. RAMALLETS, Antoni (España) 27. KHOMICH, Aleksei (Unión Soviética) 26. TOMASZEWSKI, Jan (Polonia) 25. SCHUMACHER, Toni (Germany) 24. MAZALI, Andrés (Uruguay) 23. HELLSTRÖM, Ronnie (Sweden) 22. BEARA, Vladimir (Yugoslavia) 21. DASAYEV, Rinat (Unión Soviética) 20. COMBI, Gianpiero (Italia) 19. PFAFF, Jean-Marie (Bélgica) 18. GILMAR (Brasil) 17. FILLOL, Ubaldo (Argentina) 16. KAHN, Oliver (Alemania) 15. MAZURKIEWICZ, Ladislao (Uruguay) 14. JENNINGS, Pat (Irlanda del Norte) 13. HIDEN, Rudi (Austria / Francia) 12. SOUTHALL, Neville (Gales) 11. CARRIZO, Amadeo (Argentina) 10. GROSICS, Gyula (Hungría) 9. PLÁNICKA, Frantisek (Checoslovaquia) 8. BUFFON, Gianluigi (Italia) 7. MAIER, Sepp (Germany) 6. BANKS, Gordon (England) 5. ZAMORA, Ricardo (Spain) 4. SHILTON, Peter (England) 3. ZOFF, Dino (Italy) 2. SCHMEICHEL, Peter (Denmark) 1. YASHIN, Lev (Unión Soviética) Right Backs 100. STEVENS, Gary (Inglaterra) 99. RIVILLA, Feliciano (España) 98. BUSK, Soren (Dinamarca) 97. TORALES, Juan (Paraguay) 96. DREMMLER, Wolfgang (Alemania) 95. FERREIRA, Paulo (Portugal) 94. SOSA, Carlos Adolfo (Argentina) 93. HELVEG, Thomas (Dinamarca) 92. NAVARRO, Joaquín (España) 91. FERRER, Albert (España) 90. TARP, Fritz (Dinamarca) 89. VELOSO, António (Portugal) 88. DURKOVIC, Vladimir (Yugoslavia) 87. BABBEL, Markus (Alemania) 86. DZODZUASHVILI, Revaz (Georgia) 85. SENSINI, Roberto (Argentina) 84. PIVARNÍK, Ján (Checoslovaquia) 83. GUSTAVSSON, Bengt (Suecia) 82. ANCHETA, Atilio (Uruguay) 81. SHALAMANOV, Aleksandar (Bulgaria) 80. MÍCHEL SALGADO (España) 79. GUTIÉRREZ, Nelson (Uruguay) 78. ANDERSON, Viv (Inglaterra) 77. RAINER, Karl (Austria) 76. CAVÉM, Domiciano (Portugal) 75. DELLACHA, Pedro (Argentina) 74. GAMBETTA, Schubert (Uruguay) 73. DE SORDI, Nílton (Brasil) 72. FORLÁN, Pablo (Uruguay) 71. ANGLOMA, Jocelyn (Francia) 70. JOSIMAR (Brasil) 69. SARA, Robert (Austria) 68. TASSOTTI, Mauro (Italia) 67. ZÉ MARÍA (Brasil) 66. MATTLER, Étienne (Francia) 65. MARQUINHOS (España) 64. PAVERICK, Robert (Bélgica) 63. YÁCONO, Norberto (Argentina) 62. NELINHO (Brasil) 61. SIVEBAEK, John (Dinamarca) 60. BERTHOLD, Thomas (Alemania) 59. SÁ, Francisco (Argentina) 58. PETRESCU, Dan (Rumania) 57. BIRÓ, Sándor (Hungría) 56. PANUCCI, Christian (Italia) 55. WIERSMA, Roel (Holanda) 54. JENSEN, Poul (Dinamarca) 53. URBANCZYK, Klaus (Alemania) 52. SAGNOL, Willy (Francia) 51. VAN BINST, Gilbert (Bélgica) 50. LEANDRO (Brasil) 49. NEVILLE, Gary (Inglaterra) 48. JARDINE, Sandy (Escocia) 47. HANSEN, Johnny (Dinamarca) 46. OLGUÍN, Jorge (Argentina) 45. REUTER, Stefan (Alemania) 44. FAZLAGIC, Mirsad (Yugoslavia) 43. SZYMANOWSKI, Antoni (Polonia) 42. YOUNG, George (Escocia) 41. MÁTRAI, Sándor (Hungría) 40. BURGR, Jaroslav (Checoslovaquia) 39. IVKOVIC, Milutin (Yugoslavia) 38. UBIÑA, Luis (Uruguay) 37. MONZEGLIO, Eraldo (Italia) 36. BEZSONOV, Volodymyr (Unión Soviética) 35. POSIPAL, Josef (Alemania) 34. DJORKAEFF, Jean (Francia) 33. OGONKOV, Mikhail (Unión Soviética) 32. JOAO PINTO (Portugal) 31. JORGINHO (Brasil) 30. HÖTTGES, Horst-Dieter (Alemania) 29. NEAL, Phil (Inglaterra) 28. BUZÁNSZKY, Jeno (Hungría) 27. BURGNICH, Tarcisio (Italia) 26. DOBIAS, Karol (Checoslovaquia) 25. STANKOVIC, Branko (Yugoslavia) 24. EYZAGUIRRE, Luis (Chile) 23. ARMFIELD, Jimmy (Inglaterra) 22. ROSETTA, Virginio (Italia) 21. McGRAIN, Danny (Escocia) 20. FONI, Alfredo (Italia) 19. KALTZ, Manfred (Alemania) 18. GENTILE, Claudio (Italia) 17. AMOROS, Manuel (Francia) 16. MINELLI, Severino (Suiza) 15. BATTISTON, Patrick (Francia) 14. BERGOMI, Giuseppe (Italia) 13. SUURBIER, Wim (Holanda) 12. GERETS, Eric (Bélgica) 11. ZANETTI, Javier (Argentina) 10. JANES, Paul (Alemania) 9. NASAZZI, José (Uruguay) 8. BERGMARK, Orvar (Suecia) 7. CARLOS ALBERTO (Brasil) 6. CROMPTON, Bob (Inglaterra) 5. THURAM, Lilian (Francia) 4. RODRÍGUEZ ANDRADE, Víctor (Uruguay) 3. VOGTS, Berti (Alemania) 2. CAFÚ (Brasil) 1. DJALMA SANTOS (Brasil)
RIGHT BACK: Carlos Alberto should be AT LEAST in top3 best RB (if not the best - as France football Magazine, and also FIFA worldcup all time team selected him) - Carlos Alberto was like Dani Alvez (plus leadership and extra defensive skill) compared to D.Santos who is more like a Maicon (on steroid) - so your choices He is MUCH better than Vogts and Thuram (in individual talent and ball skills)
In both lists, proportion is almost 1 SA to 4 European. I think these players, are more known, have more countries with leagues developed, in other reasons. Personally, for Top-100 Goalies, i considered, these: * Juan "Mago" Valdivieso (Peru), our best keeper & one of the top from 30's. Unfortunately, we played a few int.matches in those days. * Julio Cozzi (Argentine), played in "Ballet Azul" of Millonarios 50's. * Adolfo Riquelme (Paraguay), sudamerican champion of 53. * Roberto "Condor" Rojas (Chile), top goalie from 80's. * Oscar Cordoba (Colombia), for me the best colombian keeper. No love, for Roma, Gilmar, R.Rodriguez among SA goalies. From europeans, maybe not considered Sarti, Graflaand, Nicolay, Szabo or Szak. And i'd surprised, for Shilton, Southall, Gilmar or Khomich take an upper places on list. A matter of preferences.