No, Sarosi was listed with some symbols in first and last name. If I realise who the missing player is I'll let you know then as Rush definitely wasn't in my latest list.
Thanks for the interesting feedback. The four Scottish players are all pre-1930. Without them I cannot properly represent the 60 years of organised football up to this time. For the same reason two of my Englishmen and the one Welshman began their careers in the 19th century. You are right about the World Cup. The British record is not good. This is reflected by only five of my picks from the British Isles having participated in the competition (three of whom won it). It is also the reason why I left out the likes of Finney, Greaves and Dalglish despite their high reputations in the UK. If I had to leave out a Hungarian it would probably be Kubala rather than Orth. Jimmy Hogan said that Orth was the best footballer he ever saw and I don’t want to reduce representatives from the pre-World Cup era. Alex Ferguson said something similar about Keane before they fell out. Four men from Spain may be one too few but nobody else really convinced me. Pirri was closest. Casillas’s blunders in recent years have dented his reputation a little. I know you rate Bochini highly, but five minutes’ action in the World Cup as a substitute, though unfair, weighs against him. Redondo’s largely self-enforced absence from the national team doesn’t help his cause either. Francescoli was a fine player but a little disappointing on the global stage. My next Uruguayan was Piendibene for his pioneering qualities and link to the past. How highly do you rate him? And Rocha?
Thank you for sharing your own list. A lot of thought has clearly gone into it. As you say, we have under half our Top 100 names in common – 43 in fact. It just shows how little consensus there is on these things. I suspect that your list would find more support overall, with a higher number of moderns and attacking players. Goalkeepers, defenders and defensive/central midfielders combined took up twice as many places in my list as they did in yours. Your seventeen Brazilians are also probably nearer the consensus than my twelve. Dearman had eighteen in his Top 100. Our Dutch contingent, as you say, is similar with you including a couple of extra ones in Bergkamp and Rensenbrink. The next one for me would have been van Hanegem, whose reputation in the Netherlands seems to be higher than elsewhere. You also have a couple more players from the British Isles, but that’s still only half the number Brian Glanville included!
I thought I'd counted 49 before but yeah it's somewhere in that region (and my counting isn't perfect otherwise I wouldn't be stumpted on the Ian Rush issue!). I'm not sure my list would have more in the average list among all the connoisseurs on here and Xtratime for example (or if World Soccer had another go at a list - like I say mine might have more in common with a readers poll I would guess although wouldn't be close to identical to it) but yeah I can tell you explicitly made an attempt to have a proper spread throughout football history and that could conjure up immediate differences to a lot of peoples attempts. Yeah, Glanville's list did include a lot of British players from his youth, but it's understandable in a way as it represents his football experiences. It wasn't only British players either from the earlier part of last century - Ocwirk was there, Schiaffino, and maybe Ademir was in there a bit lower down IIRC.
The Glanville list (with write-ups) is on this page btw: http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/platini-top-ten-all-time.619847/page-10 (To save peter the job of typing it, and so the OP and others can see it)
It depends on how much weight the 1850s to 1910s really deserve. It may be sixty years of organized football but the sport is very limited in range during this time, it's no different than gridiron football is today. The international records of the British nations if anything should place in proper perspective how to value these early years, which to me are clearly important as pioneering but not so much as historically great. Kubala and Orth are indeed quite close, either one would be the player to drop from the Hungarians. It really doesn't matter what Alex Ferguson may have said about Keane, I doubt Ferguson would rate him higher than C Ronaldo from the players he managed and I don't think anyone's endorsement should place any player in this list. Casillas' blunders have come in as he reached age 32, it should not affect much what he accomplished during the previous 15 years especially with such a high a peak. I'm a bit confused, from your comments on Bochini, Redondo and Francescoli it seems that you place a major value to the World Cup, but then there are a few players on the list with little WC relevance such as Gomez, Kubala, Rummenigge, Van Basten, Henry. I would place Bochini on accounts of being the greatest Copa Libertadores winner of all time, Redondo for being the catalyst in Real Madrid's return to European glory, and Francescoli for being the greatest Copa America player of modern times and the biggest icon for a team of the stature of River Plate, it's true he disappointed at the World Cup twice but had he delivered we would be speaking of him in the top 30. Piendibene is a great player but I feel ultimately Francescoli has achieved a bigger stature. I'm not sure Rocha is top 100 material, Spencer, Joya and Mazurkewicz are the legendary players of that Penarol side of the 60s. I forgot to mention Poland, they deserve at least one player on the list, either Deyna or Boniek who each led them to a WC semifinal and another knockout round appearance. Plus both had illustrious club careers. I would drop Needham to make room. Also completely overlook Hagi's absence, I would add him for Chilavert. Brazil should have at least one more player, one of Gerson, Rivelino, Jairzinho, Cerezo, Socrates, Rivaldo or Ronaldinho, I have to think who loses the spot.
Ah, yeah - it's Duncan Edwards I also had in my top 100 (not in the original list, but in peter's selection).
The sixty years I was referring to were 1870-1930, where the four Scots are drawn from. A few experts in the 1920s and 1930s, including Herbert Chapman, said the football in Britain before the war was of a higher standard. Five British players have been included before 1914, which covers around forty years, a time when football drew huge crowds and became a significant part of the national culture. Any fewer than that, and I think this period would be under-represented. Gómez and Francescoli have similarities in that both were Uruguayans who achieved legendary status at River Plate. My reasoning was that someone who was not eligible for the World Cup at the time, like Gómez (banned/playing abroad), takes less of a hit than the likes of Francescoli, who did play without quite fulfilling expectations, or Bochini who was not selected. Of course there are others in the list whose World Cups were nothing out of the ordinary, but they were generally less marginal choices. Hagi was quite close; Boniek less so. There are already twice as many Europeans as Latin Americans, and if Chilavert drops out there is no Latin American goalkeeper. Redondo seems to divide opinion. At his peak he was very good but did he fully realise his potential? As you say, several other Brazilians are in contention. They currently have a third as many representatives again as any other country. Do they merit more?
Even if Bristish football was of higher standard, it should be put at the same level of Hungary's or Brazil's golden ages. In any event, Scotland with four representatives and the Irelands with two, when you have Poland with none or all of Africa without one, does not make any sense. Does it tell you something that once the rest of the world took up the game, Scotland disappears as a force? Or is it just a weird coincidence? Francescoli did win three Copa Americas, the first for Uruguay in forty years back then. Of course it's not the same value as the World Cup, but it shows that Francescoli has some international achievement. This should be enough to displace Gomez, who has no international successes. In any event, I probably would agree that ultimately the difference is small for either one, Francescoli obviously represents a more modern era of Uruguayan football and perhaps that's why he should get the nod rather than depict Uruguay as a country of little relevance nowadays, which is of course completely inaccurate. If you're going to include a South American goalie, it should be Carrizo, Mazurkewicz or Fillol. I know you are trying to be inclusive and laud you for that stance, but at some point you also have to be mindful of the footballing story. I'd take Hagi and Deyna over Edwards, Sanchez, Keane, Henry, Chilavert, and several others on the list easily. By the way why is Edwards in there, he passed at 21. Is he better than Maradona? Not sure what you mean by "Redondo seems to divide opinion", he was the greatest defensive mid in an era chock full of great ones, and an icon for no less than Real Madrid being all time XI for them without a doubt and all time XI for Argentina as well. Talk about pedigree. In any event you could say the same thing about at least half the players on the list as that is the nature of the sport. Well, if you think Scotland deserves four players on the list, then Brazil should have at least 25. Your list is very good as a foundation, I would definitely use it to build upon, but there are a few glaring errors that I hope the poster can discern and correct.
Thanks for your answers! PDG1978 I was very excited to read your suggestions, but I have to say that there's a huge difference between a "best players" list like yours and the greatest players of all time. So if one would make a best players list, the only criteria would be technical and tactical skills (maybe athleticism). But it's quite hard to choose between players of different generations, as there is a massive change in how the game is played. It's fair to say that a world-class footballer of the 60's wouldn't stand a chance in todays top-class football. So the only way to differentiate between players of different generations is to look at the level of skills compared with other players out of the several generations. If you do this, it's already not a "best ever" list. A list including the best players of all time only considering their skill-level would probably look like a best players of the decade list. So the main idea of a "greatest ever" list is that we compare influence and impact of the players skills creating a successful game with their teams. So the most talented players that maybe never had a huge impact on the game, are not included (f.e. Gascoigne). The skill-level is not limited with peak performance and potential, but also includes longevity. You should not misunderstand my list as list of the most successful players, but maybe as a list of the most decorated und influential players. Nonetheless your list was also very good and interesting and I'm totally convinced of your knowledge about the beautiful game. I only meant to give you an explanation of how I chose my players.
Understood mate - I don't really see it the same way (outside of some factors like training that I would be discounting I suppose and envisaging players with the same advantages there) but I know others do and it's probably a topic which gets discussed a lot. Anyway, yeah I knew you were aiming for a greatest ever list, and although there should be decent overlap I think, it is definitely different. Someone like Edwards himself is interesting in a way as you'd think his lack of longevity would reduce his 'greatness' although in some ways having made himself such a highly regarded player at such a young age, he is destined to be remembered as a great in his own way.
It's very interesting to see so much players from the pre 1930's in your list. But for me it was very hard to compare the success and decoration of those players with players from the world-cup era. I only got Woodward as a british player of that time as he captained Great Britain to their double-win of the golden medal at the olympics, which were the first considerable international tournaments. Additionally I am very happy that my list quite matches with yours. Most of the players you included were also in my eyes, but barely didn't make my top 200.
What I can do for you to be fair is dig out comme's list (there's a chance you saw it if you have been looking at these forums, as well as Xtratime with all Dearman's work) as it is compiled on a pretty similar basis to what you are aiming for after a bigger project where he was picking 100 players for each position. There might be others, from the likes of Peru FC, but I'd have to check what basis exactly they were compiled on. I'm not sure if comme has seen this thread already himself of course, so he might even have an updated list for you.
There are definitely some players that would have reached a great career such as Duncan Edwards, Streltsov, etc. But I can't include those players even if i would like to see them and give them their deserved honour. They couldn't give enough considerable performances.
Here is comme's original list of 100, compiled after completing his project, and not considering players younger than 28 at that time (since then he did say he'd already have Messi top 7, C.Ronaldo about top 30, and Xavi top 50 IIRC and that was a while ago): 1. Pele 2. Alfredo di Stefano 3. Ferenc Puskas 4. Diego Maradona 5. Franz Beckenbauer 6. Johan Cruyff 7. Garrincha 8. Michel Platini 9. Ronaldo 10. Zico 11. Paolo Maldini 12. Bobby Charlton 13. Gerd Muller 14. Eusebio 15. George Best 16. Didi 17. Franco Baresi 18. Ruud Gullit 19. Juan Alberto Schiaffino 20. Jozsef Boszik 21. Marco Van Basten 22. Bobby Moore 23. Stanley Matthews 24. Zinedine Zidane 25. Lev Yashin 26. Lothar Matthaus 27. Djalma Santos 28. Matthias Sindelar 29. Jose Manuel Moreno 30. Nilton Santos 31. Roberto Baggio 32. Omar Sivori 33. Giuseppe Meazza 34. Jose Leandro Andrade 35. Gianni Rivera 36. Ladislao Kubala 37. Luis Suarez 38. Gunnar Nordahl 39. Ernst Ocwirk 40. Roberto Rivellino 41. Romario 42. Giacinto Facchetti 43. Raymond Kopa 44. Nils Liedholm 45. Sandor Kocsis 46. Gaetano Scirea 47. Francisco Gento 48. Zizinho 49. John Charles 50. Daniel Passarella 51. Frank Rijkaard 52. Fritz Walter 53. Johan Neeskens 54. Silvio Piola 55. Rivaldo 56. Jose Emilio Santamaria 57. Zoltan Czibor 58. Alex James 59. Thierry Henry 60. Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 61. Roberto Falcao 62. Roy Keane 63. Nandor Hidegkuti 64. Peter Schmeichel 65. Ruud Krol 66. Obdulio Varela 67. Dino Zoff 68. Cafu 69. Adolfo Pedernera 70. Danny Blanchflower 71. Marcel Desailly 72. Ryan Giggs 73. Roberto Carlos 74. Josef Masopust 75. Tom Finney 76. Paul Breitner 77. Mario Coluna 78. Luis Monti 79. Wolfgang Overath 80. Billy Wright 81. Jimmy Greaves 82. Luis Figo 83. Ronaldinho 84. Pepi Bican 85. Dragan Dzajic 86. Berti Vogts 87. Mumo Orsi 88. Kenny Dalglish 89. Alessandro Nesta 90. Arsenio Erico 91. Elias Figeroa 92. Kurt Hamrin 93. Oleg Blokhin 94. Dixie Dean 95. Guther Netzer 96. Peter Shilton 97. Angel Labruna 98. Michael Laudrup 99. Ricardo Zamora 100. Uwe Seeler Maybe I shouldn't speak for anyone else by using old lists that could have varied again since being posted (Peru FC like I say would be an example of someone who has posted 100 player+ lists, while you've obviously been following Dearman's ideas anyway). So yeah I wouldn't know if comme exactly shares the view that older players wouldn't be great in the modern game, but I do know he felt it wasn't very easy to gauge at all (to an extent I'd agree because obviously if we're dealing with theory then it's not the same as reality) and so shared the approach of judging players based on their own eras. So that list could be a help to you.
Like I say not to go off topic and make too much of any disagreements about older players being great in later eras but as some food for thought maybe I'll just leave this here (Cruyff, past his physical prime, playing with players who belong an era or two later than he does in the main): Anyway, great idea to try to come up with your 100 players, like a historical guide to great footballers I suppose.
So you've probably guessed (but just to make it clear for everyone) that was Luis Suarez Miramontes in comme's list.
I could have mis-counted slightly again but there are I think about 70 players in both the lists of comme and peter btw. One extra now if M.Laudrup and Zamora (along with Seeler) drop out but Messi, C.Ronaldo and Xavi come into the list. I think it looks like over 40 of those would still be in my own top 100 (as you say compiled on different basis and not as conducive to really old players) too anyway. I do remember comme picked Morton in Sheep Draft 1 so he's another on peter's list that he holds in high regard (I recall that being reflected on his 100 left wingers thread too)!
So I see only two players in comme's list I overlooked in my top 200. I'm a little bit irritated about Roy Keane, whom I don't consider as a all-time great. In my opinion his physical strength perfectly suited with the Premier League football, which makes him kind of overrated. Additionally he wasn't able to gain any success with the irish national team. But I have to check this again, regarding his high appreciation by comme. The other player missing in my list is Alex James. I don't know how i could forget this guy, but he surely has to be in my top 200, especially as he is in 9th (!!!) place in Glanvilles list.
Quite interesting that i can't find alex james ever mentioned by dearman on http://xtraimmortal.blogspot.de
That explains his high rank! Found James now as 49th best playmaker on http://xtraimmortal.blogspot.de in the 9x100 players list, quite strange that he is not even mentioned in his main positional hall of fame.
Here's a profile for Kubala http://spielverlagerung.de/2015/12/01/tuerchen-1-laszlo-kubala/ I agree that Redondo shouldn't be in a top 100. Check for instance. http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/esm-xi.html Many in the Netherlands tend to rank Bergkamp over Gullit, everything considered (style, importance, longevity, performances). That was the case in the 1999 lists but in 2014 (before the World Cup) a poll was done again among journalists and 'experts' and that had the same outcome, by a convincing distance. Goals and assists production are comparable I think and GI value is just a tiny 9 points difference in favor of Bergkamp. http://football-ratings.blogspot.com/2012/06/european-footballer-of-year-1990s.html
my proto-position ranking; it is based on post-1958, only few pre-1958 players like di Stefano, Puskas, Matthews are include in. caution : it's not deliberate, just extemporization. Goalkeeper 1. Lev Yashin 2. Gianluigi Buffon 3. Dino Zoff 4. Gordon Banks 5. Peter Schmeichel 6. Sepp Maier 7. Oliver Kahn 8. Iker Casilaas 9. Ubaldo Fillol 10. Manuel Neuer Right-back 1. Cafu 2. Djalma Santos 3. Carlos Alberto 4. Berti Vogts 5. Lilian Thuram 6. Philipp Lahm 7. Manfred Kaltz 8. Gianluca Zambrotta 9. Dani Alves 10. Giuseppe Bergomi Centre-back 1. Franz Beckenbauer 2. Franco Baresi 3. Bobby Moore 4. Ruud Krol 5. Elias Figueroa 6. Daniel Passarella 7. Jose Santamaria 8. Jurgen Kohler 9. Fabio Cannavaro 10. Matthias Sammer 11. Ronald Koeman 12. Alessandro Nesta 13. Uli Stielike 14. Bruno Pezzey 15. Karlheinz Forster 16. Gaetano Scirea 17. Claudio Gentile 18. Carles Puyol 19. Marcel Desailly 20. Hector Chumpitaz Left-back 1. Paolo Maldini 2. Nilton Santos 3. Giacinto Facchetti 4. Paul Breitner 5. Roberto Carlos 6. Karl-Heinz Schnellinger 7. Andreas Brehme 8. Junior 9. Antonio Cabrini 10. Silvio Marzolini Defensive/Central midfielder 1. Lothar Matthaus 2. Didi 3. Xavi 4. Frank Rijkaard 5. Falcao 6. Johan Neeskens 7. Luis Suarez 8. Josef Masopust 9. Dunga 10. Didier Deschamps Offensive midfielder 1. Diego Maradona 2. Zinedine Zidane 3. Michel Platini 4. Bobby Charlton 5. Zico 6. Raymond Kopa 7. Ruud Gullit 8. Rivellino 9. Ronaldinho 10. Mario Kempes Winger 1. Garrincha 2. Cristiano Ronaldo 3. Stanley Matthews 4. George Best 5. Jairzinho 6. Paco Gento 7. Luis Figo 8. Arjen Robben 9. Rob Rensenbrink 10. Franck Ribery Forward 1. Pele 2. Lionel Messi 3. Johan Cruyff 4. Alfredo di Stefano 5. Puskas Ferenc 6. Eusebio 7. Ronaldo 8. Eusebio 9. Gerd Muller 10. Marco van Basten 11. Romario 12. Roberto Baggio 13. Paolo Rossi 14. Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 15. Rivaldo 16. Thierry Henry 17. Gigi Liva 18. Tostao 19. Dennis Bergkamp 20. Uwe Seeler also I suggest whole top 30 list, but it is after consideration. 1. Pele 2. Diego Maradona 3. Lionel Messi 4. Johan Cruyff 5. Franz Beckenbauer 6. Alfredo di Stefano 7. Puskas Ferenc 8. Garrincha 9. Zinedine Zidane 10. Michel Platini 11. Ronaldo 12. Eusebio 13. Gerd Muller 14. Bobby Charlton 15. Lothar Matthaus 16. Zico 17. Cristiano Ronaldo 18. Marco van Basten 19. Romario 20. Lev Yashin 21. Paolo Maldini 22. Didi 23. Stanley Matthews 24. Xavi 25. Roberto Baggio 26. Franco Baresi 27. Paolo Rossi 28. Karl-Heinz Rummenigge 29. Raymond Kopa 30. George Best