Terminology for Specific Types of Players

Discussion in 'Soccer History' started by Twenty26Six, Jan 28, 2010.

  1. filippomo

    filippomo Member

    Sep 19, 2013
    Club:
    Modena FC
    It was quote muche the same. The centre forward was the inspirator of the forwards play rather than the finisher. Usually the finishers were the two inside-forward. It was just with the metodo, with the 2 inside forwards becoming "mezzali" that the centroavanti became the "designated" finisher of the attacks. And it was only with the arrive of Piola that the figure of the centroavanti became almost always that of an "ariete" (batterin ram"), a strong man capable of scoring in the box thanks to his phisical strenght and powerful shot.

    As for the question about books that deal with tactics in the history of the italian game, I've read one, but it was puerile (I don't own it, but i could find the title if you really want). The best readings are the contemporaries newspaper (gazzetta dello sport ) and weeklies (Il calcio illustrato, la domenica sportiva ecc.) which contained alot of articles about tactics.

    If you want a good read you should try "Storia critica del calcio italiano" written by Gianni Brera... don't know if it has been ever translated into english. It also deals with tactics, but above all it's a materpiece of sport writing.
     
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  2. filippomo

    filippomo Member

    Sep 19, 2013
    Club:
    Modena FC
    Surely we have the difference between a mere, a straight, rapinatore (goal poacher), a la Inzaghi, and a player wh0 was an all-around centreforward but knew ho to poach goals, a la Rossi, or Boninsegna (very different these 2 ones, one thin and thechnical, the other powerful).
     
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  3. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    What do you know about De Vecchi, his style of play and characteristics?
     
  4. filippomo

    filippomo Member

    Sep 19, 2013
    Club:
    Modena FC
    Much was written about De Vecchi. He was regarded as the best italian player of the pioneers age.
    Short, ambidextrous (but naturally left-footed), began to play as inside forward in Milan CFC, gaining superb skills which he used at his own advantge when he became a fullback.

    From the newspaper you can understand he had these main characteristics: 1) brilliant defensive anticipation 2) accurate and powerful shoot 3) cool in one vs one defending. As a result of these qualities he was the true director of the Genoa play. He gained the ball in defense and accurately passed it deep in to opponents field to the winger, a common tactic in those days.

    Obviously, as a plus, thanks to his great technical qualities, he soon became a leader: he was so feared and revered that, when Genoa was trailing a match, he moved to centre forward and often succeded in overturning the outcome of the game thanks just to the subjection he caused in the opponents.
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    Modena-Genoa 1-1 (0-1), Modena, Campo di Viale Fontanelli, 20 novembre 1921
    The two captains before the match. De Vecchi (Genoa, r) and Forlivesi (Modena, l) were close friends and often played together for the national team.
     
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  5. filippomo

    filippomo Member

    Sep 19, 2013
    Club:
    Modena FC
    Obviously De Vecchi is on the left and Forlivesi on the right...
     
  6. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Country:
    England



    A list that might help us define what a "goal-poacher is and isn't::



    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1072468-top-15-goal-poachers-in-world-football



    I'm fully aware that Bleacher Report is usually utter crap at anything remotely resembling sport journalism...
     
  7. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Nice description mate,

    I'm curious because he has a good amount of goals for a defender, especially a very old one. I heard that the used to push the offensive (maybe a explanation to his scoring record).

    I don't know whether going forward as other goalscoring defenders, but it have more sense if he line-up as forward sometimes or he swap position during a close match to turn the result to his side.
     
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  8. filippomo

    filippomo Member

    Sep 19, 2013
    Club:
    Modena FC
    I've not al the stats for him, but he surely kicked penalties when he was with Genoa, and free-kick. But, although most of his goals are from placed kicks, the newspapers of the era all agree that his lining with the forwards really created havoc for the opponents defense.
     
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  9. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Country:
    England
    I'm quite pleased that we have members such as "filip" & "sioux" that wish to politely discuss the various aspects of this great game we call "football" (including yours truly: one is never too old to stop learning IMHO)...
     
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  10. filippomo

    filippomo Member

    Sep 19, 2013
    Club:
    Modena FC
    Strange list.
    Obviously the definitive goal poacher is Inzaghi, in the sense that he didn't know any other way to score aside from, well, just being there. Incredible: he couldn't shoot from more than 10 metres, and stille he scored so many goals...
    Gerd Muller is the best goal-poacher of every time so he has to be in the list.
    Hugo Sanchez quite fit in my idea of a goal poacher, as Romario and Pauleta.

    The other ones I'm not so sure. Seem to be more all-around type of forwards, and I definitely think that having Batistuta and Nordahl in this list is not correct. Of course they could poach goals, but this is true for most of the centre-forwards. Nordahl obviously was more of an "ariete" type of player (a la Piola, Charles, and then for italian football in more recent years Pulici, Casiraghi, Skuhravy..), while Batistuta really could score (and he scored) from every positions and in every way.
     
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  11. filippomo

    filippomo Member

    Sep 19, 2013
    Club:
    Modena FC
    You Know...if it happens once it's luck... but 5,10,20 times...

    Always hated him, but really nobody cant'argu that this man had a special feeling for the goal. And with time ha also showed he had what many of his contemporary fellow players didn't and don't have, a true passion for the game. Still all his diving and his constant complainig with the referee drive me mad.
     
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  12. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Country:
    England


    During the peak seasons of his career; I would venture to say that Muller was more of the "predator"-type of centre-forward. Rather than a card-carrying "goal-poacher"-type of No.9...

    Later in his career (such as his NASL career) Muller was much more of a "goal-poacher" IMHO...

    If you don't know the English/British football lingo distinction between a "predatory"- and "poacher"-type goal-scorer/centre-forward/front-runner; just LMK, mate...
     
  13. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Country:
    England



    He was no Stan Mortensen: that's for certain... ;)
     
  14. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Country:
    England



    The English football lingo term for your "ariete" would probably be a "spearhead" or "W-M-mould" centre-forward (Ted Drake, Bedford Jezzard, Tommy Lawton, Nat Lofthouse & the like)...

    Your inclusion of John Charles of Wales is a good link because that was the position he was considered to play in Britain when he was stationed on the forward line (rather than as a back-line defender/W-M-mould centre-half/No.5)...
     
  15. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    Filippomo, there is a term which I find used in vintage "Almanacco Illustrato Del Calcio" or websites dealing with Serie A of the 1960s and 1970s which has yet not been covered. The term is "jolly". I know about terzino, mediano, centravanti, portiere etc. but jolly? Some players for who the term is used are Giancarlo Cella, Gianpietro Marchetti, Pierluigi Cera, Mario Brugnera to name a few.
     
  16. filippomo

    filippomo Member

    Sep 19, 2013
    Club:
    Modena FC
    A "jolly" is a jack of all the trades, i.e. a player who can play in many positions. Of those you name there Marchetti was a difensive jolly, as he could play as terzino marcatore, stopper, terzino fluidificante, and, occasionally mediano (with a defensive approach). The same goes for Cera who could play mediano or libero with the same efctiveness. Cella was a mezzala, turned mediano, turned libero...
    Remember that the Almanacco is strange beast. It is used for references, to simple out situantions. When they had
    polyhedric players they often preferrede to use that term, jolly, instead of writing "terzino-mediano". That was particularly true for ageing players: often the libero was an experienced midfielder, he couldn't run anymore as he used to do but he had good thecnic skills, so when he turned 30 they moved him behind the stopper where he had to run less.
     
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  17. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    Thanks for the explanation!

    One thing I don't understand - and this is an entirely different subject - why there is no information on attendances in any of the publications dealing with Serie A. The "Almanacco" has no attendance figures for single games and neither do the newer publications like "Calciatore Panini" that cover Serie A seasons since the 1960s. They show all information for each single game (lineups, referee, goal scorers, date) but no attendance figure.

    The comparable volumes on English First Division (Rothmans football yearbook) are very specific regarding attendance figures yet what they lack are the dates of birth of each player (which the Almanacco has). The English clubs were unwilling to release that information publicly because they didn't want anyone to know how old their players were (this was practised in the 1960s and 1970s).
     
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  18. filippomo

    filippomo Member

    Sep 19, 2013
    Club:
    Modena FC
    I think it was simply a choice made many years ago when attendance stats were not considered scientific, to the poit that many newspaper never reported them, even Gazzetta dello Sport.
    Once the standard was set, it seems like the various editors didn't want to touch it. Anyway Almanacco del Calcio is not to be considered an "official" FIGC printing, as, in fact, they are not.
    I know how they got their data since when Panini took Almanacco in 1970. They simply collected Gazzetta dello Sport and got their data from there. If Gazzetta had a wrong information, then the Almanacco would give the same wrong informaiton months after. The same, I realized crosschecking different sources, happened for the previous editors who relied on Il Calcio Illustrato (o Il Calcio e il Cuclismo Illustrato) and Gazzetta dello Sport.
    Also, occasionally, the Almanacco has error on caps and goals scored. I wrote a book on the history of Modena F.C. and I found errors on Almanacco based on wrong reportage from away game (borrowed mainly from GDS). Sometimes (very true from the 20's to the 50's) different newspaper had different lineups or different scorers for the same game, due to lack of competence from the reporter, different views on own-goal, etc. etc.
     
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  19. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Country:
    England



    One of the best profiles of "Electric Eel" Mortensen on the web:



    http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/BLACKPmortensen.htm



    Mortensen was also known as the "Blackpool Bomber" (or "-Bombshell") because he had served in a RAF bomber crew during WWII...

    AKA "Electric Eel" or "The Blackpool No.9" (in reference to a train number as well his shirt number): Mortensen had some great nicknames to go along w/the rather pedestrian "Morty"...

    Mortensen was also portrayed quite unsympathetically (which didn't sit well w/some) by Gavin Rossdale in the (mostly American-produced) film The Game Of Their Lives...
     
  20. filippomo

    filippomo Member

    Sep 19, 2013
    Club:
    Modena FC
    He became a legend here after England trashed Italy in Turin, I think, in 1948. He was fast and had great controlling skills.
     
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  21. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz

    Thanks again for these explanations. Too bad about the attendance figures not being recorded at the time. I had hope that Italian newspapers would have them, but as you stated, it is unlikely. I did order "Corriere Della Sera" from my library, they have them going back to 1966, hoping to find attendance figures. I will have a look soon but I am not too optimistic.
     
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  22. filippomo

    filippomo Member

    Sep 19, 2013
    Club:
    Modena FC
    These are examples from Gazzetta dello Sport 1942
    this one has a figure for attendance.
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    This one has not
    [​IMG]
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  23. filippomo

    filippomo Member

    Sep 19, 2013
    Club:
    Modena FC
    Il Littoriale around the same years is a litle better
     

    Attached Files:

  24. filippomo

    filippomo Member

    Sep 19, 2013
    Club:
    Modena FC
    Local newspaper are usually worst for the data you're looking for. At least untile the 80's, when GdS has those figures. The general and political ones, sold countrywide, as Corriere della Sera, are usually no better than local ones.
     
  25. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Country:
    England



    "Morty" was BOTH quick AND fast: meaning that he had a fantastic burst of speed over the first ten yards AND he also had a "fifth gear" for top-end speed...

    There's a fantastic eyewitness summation of Mortensen's attacking/goal-scoring game by Sir Stanley Matthews in the Spartacus profile...
     

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