Terminology for Specific Types of Players

Discussion in 'Soccer History' started by Twenty26Six, Jan 28, 2010.

  1. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Country:
    England
    "Cha Cha", "Twenty", or anyone: Did you happen to have any questions or need clarification on anything since I'm here?
     
  2. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Country:
    United States
    No. That's good. I think I've got enough reading for a bit. :)
     
  3. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Country:
    England
    ChaChaFut repped this.
  4. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Country:
    England
    I've notice that this one caused a bit of trouble on other football MBs: Does anyone here know or want to know the ORIGINAL differences between a "poacher" and a "predator" type of attacker/goal-scorer?
     
  5. ChaChaFut

    ChaChaFut Member

    Jun 30, 2005
    I'd guess that a predator would be more of a forward that would constantly roam, bugs the opposition, and causes the defense to make mistakes, capitalizing from them (e.g. Higuaín). A poacher is a "penalty area" forward, who has the ability for always positioning himself in the right place at the right time to finish (e.g. Inzaghi) . As for the original differences, please enlighten us...
     
    RoyOfTheRovers and Twenty26Six repped this.
  6. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Country:
    England



    [You're rather on the right track, mate: (original meaning) a "predator" was a goal-scorer (regardless of their identified position) that could "force the issue" in terms attacking/scoring. They had at least good enough pace to be able to get on the end of "on the deck" through balls AND enough ability and tricks on the ball to take on and beat opposition players, etc. They "pounced" on the opposition's collective defence; just like the "predator" of their namesake. Jackie Milburn, Stan Mortensen & Gerd Muller (during his peak seasons) were seen as "predatory"-type goal-scorers when the distinction was still utilised in this fashion.

    "Goal-poachers" (again regardeless of their actual position) were goal-scorers that capitalised on mistakes made by the opposition in their own "danger area". They had the positional sense, quickness & sureness in their finishing to jump on rebounds, the opposition 'keeper failing to retain the ball, etc., in order to get off a shot and hopefully score a goal. Especially in the later stages of their career(s), Robbie Fowler and Gary Lineker could both be seen as "goal-poachers".

    Some players excelled at both types of scoring: Jimmy Greaves (@ his preak) was seen as BOTH a master "poacher" AND "predator".

    The "goal-poacher" and the "predator" were both compared and contrasted against the "battering ram": Does anyone know or want to know what a "battering ram" was as a goal-scorer?]
     
    ChaChaFut and Twenty26Six repped this.
  7. ChaChaFut

    ChaChaFut Member

    Jun 30, 2005
    I sure would like to know. Would that be a big, tough forward that powers through the opposition (e.g. Drogba)?
     
    RoyOfTheRovers repped this.
  8. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Country:
    England


    [:thumbsup:!! Yes, allied w/at least a respectable level of athleticism and pace (because a "battering ram" of the imagination moves fast and hits hard). BUT, it wasn't just utilised to describe a central forward: Duncan Edwards was called a "battering ram" of an orthodox ("W-M"-mould) W-H, Billy Liddell was considered a "battering ram" of a wide-player, etc.

    "Battering ram" centre-forwards would've included Trevor Ford, Tommy Lawton, Nat Lofthouse, Gunnar Nordahl, Tommy Taylor & the like...]
     
    ChaChaFut repped this.
  9. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Country:
    England
  10. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Country:
    England



    [Have any of you read where I've explained and posted links to info about the old/classic "sweeper up" role?]
     
  11. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Country:
    England
    Some of you may have heard the term that as player is a "blockbuster centre-forward": Does anyone know or want to know what the term being a "blockbuster" or "blockbusting" originally meant?

    Also, does anyone know or want to know what being termed as an "initiator" originally meant?
     
  12. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Country:
    England
    ball-conjuror: A player/attacker w/extraordinary on-the-ball ability and skills and the capability of consistently going past opponents w/it at their feet. Garrincha, Wilf Mannion and "Sir Stan" were all seen as "ball-conjurors" when they were still playing...
     
    Jaweirdo repped this.
  13. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Country:
    England
    This is the passage from the Henry Cockburn obit where the author goes into the difference(s) between Cockburn as a ball-winning wing-half and Stiles as a "deep-lying"-type when both were playing for United at club level:



    "In many ways Cockburn was similar to Nobby Stiles, the tigerishly abrasive destroyer who played a key role as United piled up the honours throughout the 1960s and who was integral to England's World Cup triumph of 1966. Admittedly tactics were different in the Cockburn heyday, so usually he occupied a more advanced position than Stiles, who thrived in a withdrawn position alongside the stopper centre-half Bill Foulkes, but the two pocket battleships had plenty in common.

    Eager, bright-eyed bundles of energy and enthusiasm, they were both combative and constructive, their boundless spirit, honesty and endeavour making up generously for their lack of inches. The pair of them were pacy, doggedly tenacious and unfailingly brave in the tackle, but also - and this was crucial to their success - they were instinctive readers of the game who were blessed with far more pure skill than many critics maintained."




    The link to the original info is back in post No.39...
     
    Twenty26Six repped this.
  14. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Country:
    United States
    tergicristallo* - "windshield wiper;" defensive midfield screen in front of the central backs

    *I got this from an American sportswriter's blog. If someone else can verify this is a "common" term, let me know.
     
    RoyOfTheRovers repped this.
  15. filippomo

    filippomo Member

    Sep 19, 2013
    Club:
    Modena FC
    Hello everybody, I'm new here, but i can try to outline an evolution of footbal terminologu in Italy.

    When football started becomin popular in Italy, in the first decade of the XXth century. the termilogy was directly drawing from the english one. In the newspaper you could read about the goalkeeper, the backs, the half, the centrehalf, an so on. Then slowly these terms began to be translated in italian.

    Based on the "pyramid": goalkeeper became portiere (goal=porta), the backs became "terzini" (the ones who held the third line, in italian third is "terzo"), the halfbacks became "mediani" (in italian half is "metà"-->the mediano is the one who occupies the middle), the forwards became "avanti" (literal) or attaccanti (those who attacks). So the two inside forward became "interni" (also quite literal), the centre-forward "centroavanti", the wingers became "ali" (literally "wings"). When the "method" was still in development the "interni" werealso known as "mezz'ali"o "mezzali" (singular mezz'ala or mezzala), literally "half wings".

    This was until the late '30s-early 40s when some italian teams began to switch to the sistema or WM. Until that moment there had been really no-significant innovation in terminology. The only "atypical" term was probably "catapulta" (catapult) used (but it was not so common) to describe the terzino who tackled first on the opponent forward (normally the two Terzini played on line horizontally, but was also common that the more powerful and fast played in front of the slower one who so could have more time to get the position).

    The passage to the WM, which in Italy took a very long time (until 1949 when almos all the Serie A sides had completed the switch), didn't change much. Obviouslt the Centromediano (centre-half) who in the "metodo" had been a mix of a defender and a midfielder, became just a defender and in the mid 50's began to be named "stopper", as, I think, in England or. more rarely "terzo terzino" (third fullback). The two lateral halfbacks, the "mediani", who in the metodo marked (lously, not man on man) the wingers, now were real midfielders but manteined their name.

    Nothing seemed to change, but the fact that the games between two teams using the WM often became a man vs. man battle, forced the weakest teams (which usually lost the man vs. man battle) to strenghten the defense. So already by 1952 ca. many teams began to use, for their away game, the "battitore libero" (literally "free hitter"), who was usually a "mediano" left behind the centromediano with no man to man marking duty. Having lost a man in the midfield one of the winger was often requested to help more the mezzali and the remaining mediano, so was born the "ala tornante" (from "tornare": coming back). From 1939 to 1952 ca., so in Italy the teams had passe from a generalized use of the "motodo" to a generalized use of the WM, to a total freedom... In contrast with the "ala tornante" the real winger became known as "ala di punta" (punta: , while one of the two "mezzali", usually the most techinically gifted, could be known as "mezzala d'attacco". The italian way to "catenaccio" was born and was complete in the 60's when a natural champion like Facchetti gave birth to the "terzino fluidificante" (I think literally this can be translated with "fluidizing") a terzino who, although not free of man to man marking duties, had freedom to attack down the wing.

    With no notable exception the italians team of the sixties had a portiere (1), a "libero" (usualy 6), a "stopper" in front of him (5 as the old centre-half), a "terzino fluidificante" (usually on the left, 3), a "terzino marcatore" (with just markind duties, 2), a "mediano" (4), a "mezzala" (usually 8), a "ala tornante" (usually on the right, 7) a "centravanti" (9), a "mezzala d'attacco" o "mezz'ala di punta" (usually 10), a "ala" or "ala di punta" or "ala d'attacco" (11, the use of the term "punta" comes from the "punta d'attacco" the "tip", the "head" of an attacking weapon).

    Around these times also was born the "mezzala regista", a mezzala who controlled and dictated all the play (as director in a movie). Before the sixties the term "regista" was used in a more general way. When in the 20's and in the 30's the centreforward was also in charge of the build up of the forwards play, they were referred loosely as "i registi dell'attacco"... from the late sixties to the late eighties the term was just used to identify the midfielder who dictated the play, which was not usually a deep-lying playmaker, just in front of the defense, but a more all-around player (from De Sisti to Platini, if you get the idea). Behind them they always had at least a mediano, usually a good runner, good tackler, good at man on man marking, and good at carrying the ball... the mediano became known as "mediano di spinta" (spinta=thrust as he was used to carry the ball more than pass it, players like Furino, Oriali, Tardelli).

    These terms were still in use until Sacchi changed the game in Italy (and not only here to be honest). With the widspread use of 4-4-2 and 3-5-2, we lost the "terzino fluidificante" and the "mediano di spinta", to gain "centrale di centrocampo", we also lost the "ala" to gain "laterale di centrocampo" and "seconda punta". Mezzali d'attacco became trequartisti (pl., if they can't score) or in some cases mezzepunte (pl. if they can score).The centravanti became "prima punta" (this is a really weak term... ) , we have no libero and stopper, but just "difensori centrali". Then there are some strange sayings as "vertice basso del rombo di centrocampo..." low top of the midfield diamond..." ok this is a real low top...
     
  16. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    Very interesting and helpful to me, as I am currently studying Serie A of the 1960s and many of these terms are familiar to me now, but I didn't know the origin of these terms. Just one question: to increase the readability, could you structure it a little by using parapraphs now and then?
     
    RoyOfTheRovers repped this.
  17. filippomo

    filippomo Member

    Sep 19, 2013
    Club:
    Modena FC
    I'd like to, but is says me "The time limit to edit this message (10 minutes) has expired."
     
    RoyOfTheRovers repped this.
  18. filippomo

    filippomo Member

    Sep 19, 2013
    Club:
    Modena FC
    Not really... a mezzala was not deployed in the wing. It was just a synonymous of "interno" (inside forward), in use in Italy from the late '20s when the "interni" stopped playng in line with the wingers and the centre-forward.

    Actually the use of the word "interni" is neing brought back in use for the two lateral midfielder in 4-3-3 or in 5-3-2 (or 3-5-2). The term mezzala seems dead since the late 80's.
     
    RoyOfTheRovers and Twenty26Six repped this.
  19. filippomo

    filippomo Member

    Sep 19, 2013
    Club:
    Modena FC
    Goal poacher, in italian is known as "rapinatore d'area di rigore" ("robber of the box"), or just "rapinatore".
     
  20. Twenty26Six

    Twenty26Six Feeling Sheepish...

    Jan 2, 2004
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Country:
    United States
    @comme

    can you edit the long post above into paragraphs, please?

    Thank you, @filippomo! Awesome post. :)
     
  21. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    :cool:
    A wonderful post, mate . Welcome on board

    Not related to "terminology". But i want to know your opinion.

    In another Forum, it said that in Italy, the Terzino Destro (#2) in Pyramid used to be the (more) Cultured Defender and he played a bit behind the other Fullback, who was the first to tackled the opponent forward.
    http://www.xtratime.org/forum/showthread.php?t=300025&page=4

    You saw that way, or the Pyramid fullback, more playing in a horizontal line in italian sides.
     
    RoyOfTheRovers repped this.
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    How was it before the 1920s?

    Also, is someone aware of books that deal with these tactical intricacies in the Italian game?
     
    RoyOfTheRovers repped this.
  23. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I have tried.
     
  24. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Country:
    England



    That's interesting that (at least in footie lingo) Italians seem to recognise the difference between a player being JUST a goal-poacher and an out-&-out finisher/"predator"...
     
  25. filippomo

    filippomo Member

    Sep 19, 2013
    Club:
    Modena FC
    Quite true.

    Since the first decade of the XXth century many teams used the fastest and strongest terzino a little in front of the slowest, and usually more techically gifted, one. As an example Rosetta (2) did play a little behind Caligaris in some situations in Juventus (end of the 20s-early 30s), in Modena in the 10's Secchi (2) did play a little in front of Roveri, and in the 20's Boni played a little behind Scacchetti. Obviously they kept the respective left and right position but they were "scaled" in many (not all) situations.

    As for the implied question if it was always the "terzino destro" who played behind in these situations, I cannot answer you. In the examples i made it was so, but to certify it we should research the history of too many treams.
     
    msioux75 repped this.

Share This Page