1935-1945 Forward: Arsenio Erico (Independiente) Forward: Jose Manuel Moreno (River Plate, Argentina) Forward: Gyula Zsengeller (Ujpest, Hungary) Winger: Ferenc Sas (MTK, Boca Juniors, Argentina) Winger: Enrique Garcia (Rosario Central, Racing, Argentina) Halfback: Antonio Sastre (Independiente, Sao Paulo, Argentina) Halfback: Michele Andreolo (Nacional, Bologna, Italy) Halfback: Ugo Locatelli (Inter Milan, Juventus, Italy) Defense: Domingos da Guia (Boca Juniors, Flamengo, Corinthians, Brazil) Defense: Pietro Rava (Juventus, Italy) Goalkeeper: Aldo Olivieri (Lucchese, Torino, Italy) Honorable Mention: Piola, Bican, A. Garcia, Binder, Langara, Carter, Tim, Leonidas, Porta, S Varela, Lehner, Minella, Foni
I had a little bit more of a look to see what I might find on him Puck, and this site has some interesting/informative articles - a couple of interviews with him and also a piece on 81/82 which I certainly thought at first glance, in contrast to 83/84, didn't reflect in the results and even goals scored his absence being felt a lot (the article does however claim that with him they could have won the Championship, and points also to goals/assists when he returned - the severity of his injuries in both 81/82 and 83/84 is notable I suppose for a footballer): https://translate.google.com/transl...arlo-antognoni-novembre-1979.html&prev=search https://translate.google.com/transl...arlo-antognoni-novembre-1979.html&prev=search https://storiedicalcio.altervista.org/blog/novembre-1981-antognoni-la-tragedia-sfiorata.html https://storiedicalcio.altervista.org/blog/giancarlo-antognoni-settembre-1978.html I also had a check, like I'd done before for some players on Vegan's thread, for his assist total for 83/84 and he seems to have about 8, split approximately equally IIRC between set piece and open play (more the latter slightly I think) and also between right and left footed ones. I tried for 79/80 too but there are a handful of games without highlights on Youtube (at all, or with missing Fiorentina goals) for that season, mostly towards the start. It seemed if anything he had more rebound assists after a shot of his than pure assists in the games with available highlights though, and in contrast to 83/84 it looks like his goal tally may have exceeded his assist tally anyway.
I won't say that Jonquet was not a star on the national team, on the contrary actually given his central role and presence. He was the star at the back (and went forward too in this CH role), was the star of the backs. He was a great figure mixing leadership, technique and toughness, this without seeming much. A "lord". If ever we French generally don't rank him higher than #5 amongst the defenders nowadays, it's just that footall has evolved since '58 and that a famous defense greatly participated in winning back-to-back titles. That said, he was very modern during his time so... perhaps it's quite unfair... all the best ones were the best in their own time anyway. These two points now precised I understand completely your reflection then. Hanappi could fit better at FB but on the other hand Jonquet was at least equal to Wright all in all. Jonquet was for sure more technical, was at least as good defensively... both were captains and emblematic CH's. It's difficult not to include such a figure like Wright. If we admit that the CH's were not stars like the forwards could be, they were very often figureheads though. About the keepers it's another question, since it's a ultra-specific role. I agree that Hanappi can be left aside a bit like Lizarazu is generally left aside from the 3 others of the 1998-2000 defense in the individual rankings, although very good, even sometimes excellent. How good was Hanappi defensively then? Good certainly, but did he excelled at it? Not saying that Lizarazu did not excell at it, although originally a winger or side-midfielder.
Tommy Lawton probably deserves to be mentioned here. He did well for England after the war and was a prolific scorer in unofficial wartime matches - 344 goals including 24 in unofficial internationals. Stan Cullis, a shrewd judge, rated him ahead of Dean. Journalist Ivan Sharpe, writing in 1952, said the best England sides he ever saw were those of 1907 and 1943. The stars in 1943 were Matthews, Lawton, Carter, Cullis and Swift.
I agree there's little difference between them. Considering this, I rate them: Pedernera > Martino, Pontoni > Mendez
Interesting you pick Rava>Foni. For me, they're equal. I also thought you'll pick 5 FW no matter the roles, this way, it's clear Bican should be in, instead Sas. And then, probably Leonidas over Zsengeller
I got he impression from a couple threads that Rava was the highest rated of any of the Italian FBs of that era, including his predacessors. Maybe from gregoriak's thread with some really good info about the top inter war players. Bican over Sas is an interesting thought. Sas always appears to be very highly rated based on his performance in Hungary, often seen as the top wing in the world during the 30s, but when he went to South America he had trouble getting games. I thought very specifically about Leonidas. My initial instinct was to have him in the team as you said over Zsen. But I have had an issue with Leonidas for a while and decided to investigate it further. Off the bat the thing that has always bothered me is he never played in a South American Championship. I have never heard any adequate explanation of this, and the more I think about it the more I think it is a huge issue. SACs were clearly a very important competition for Brazil during Leonidas' career. I think there is an assumption that he was the best forward or CF in Brazil throughout the course of his career. He played in both the 34 and 38 world cups. From my point of view the only time he can be considered the best forward in the Brazil is from 38-40. Here he has his great world cup in 38, wins the carioca in 39 (although has pedestrian goalscoring numbers), and then in 1940 is top scorer by a significant margin and plays in all the friendlies vs Argentina and scores there as well. After that it looks like all smoke and mirrors to me. There seems to be an assumptions that everything between the 1934 and 38 world cups he performing well but a closer look says otherwise. In Penarol in 33 is appears he did not play. In Vasco in 34 where they won the Carioca he scored one goal in the whole campaign, not sure how many games he played. I am not sure how much he played in 35 for Botafogo when they won the Carioca but he was not one of the top three scorers and I don't think it is safe to assume he was important or good based on the previous seasons. When he arrives at Flamengo he plays from 36-40, he is only among the top scorers in 1940. He is not selected for the 37 SAC at the expense of a number of forwards who do not have a great reputation. Then he is sold by Flamengo after 1940 and replaced by Prillo who outscores him in 1941. Then Leonidas goes to Sao Paulo where his domestic goalscoring number appear to good all the way into the late 40s but he is never selected for a single SAC game throughout the decade behind Prillo and Heleno. To me he appears to be a flashy player who had a great moment that was witnessed in Europe and therefore appears to have a higher reputation then appropriate based on the things we can see about his career. Not playing at all in the 37, 42, 45, and 46 SACs is a big deal, and the fact he was sold by the biggest club in the country in 1940 supposedly at the peak of his powers and immediately replaced with better production is also concerning. I do not know why he was included in the 1934 world cup. That part does not make sense. What does make sense is that from 38 to 40 he was first choice and having his moment, but those three years were the only time he was the best CF in Brazil, let alone deserving some type of larger reputation as one of the best forwards in the world.
Definitely should have included Lawton in the honorable mentions at least. Very similar situation to Matthews looking great immediately pre war and post war as well as starring in war time finals.
You came to these conclusions about Leonidas da Silva based on which Brazilian sources? Since you investigated this further. Numbers and numbers he had better numbers than Pirilo for Flamengo: https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leônidas_da_Silva https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvio_Pirillo
Not that I fundamentally disagree with this selection, but I feel many of those older names (say, pre-1965) deserve a second reading. As others have remarked, there is a plethora of legends who won very little (Finney, Matthews, also Wilkes). Now this is of course not the only criteria but it has to be considered. Related to that is how the standing of various players leans on their symbolic value rather than primarily their technical quality, collective or individual accomplishments. If you look at Walter (might think of Ghiggia as well) for example then he won the World Cup (how well did he or his team play? To what extent was he the Zagorakis of 1954?) and he scored 530+ goals with relatively few penalties in his career (less than 30) - thus there is actual substance - but the flip side is he always played in regional amateur leagues that were not particularly well rated abroad yet, he was in name an amateur player. In international games beyond those confinements I see a goal against Lazio in 1939 for his club and one against Barcelona in 1959. Otherwise he struggled to score against foreign opposition when he played them despite all those many goals. For the national team I see a goal against England (the 3-1 late in the game) in terms of the classic elite teams, but additionally there are of course also the goals against Hungary, Sweden and Switserland (all of these teams were severely weakened in '41-'42), the two goals against Austria in the 1954 World Cup and the goal in 1956 vs USSR. It's not a complete blank space here yet it's arguably not as dominant against the good teams as 530+ career goals would suggest. As is so often the case, the draw plays a big part (in particular the strange format of 1954). I might do this as well for some other 1940s to 1960s players but the thing is 1) many of the great names won surprisingly little, and somewhat related 2) the symbolic value takes precedence over the actual individual accomplishments, or their technical acumen. If I overlook something please tell.
There was a Brazilian Flemengo Wiki (flapedia) site that is gone now that listed the top three scorers for every Carioca and had the scoring and games played totals for all flamengo players in the 1940s. The brazilian wiki for Leonidas is the exact type of thing that makes me frustrated. It sites him as the "Best Player" of the 38 and 40 Carioca, and the 43, 45, 46, 48, 49 Paulista's. There is no source and I have never seen any other player from this era receive this type of distinction. https://www.netvasco.com.br/mauroprais/vasco/1934rj.html This is the link to Leonidas only scoring a single goal for Vasco in their 1934 carioca winning season. Also these series of youtube videos for season flamengo won the title.
The further back you go the more you must rely on things like reputation, where sometimes (as with Leonidas) they do not seem to fit. For Walter, as for Matthews int he previous decade, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt. He was seen as revolutionary in terms of skill and style for a German forward pre WWII 40-42. He was fantastic and the best player in Germany after the war from 51-54, winning the world cup with a team that only was allowed to exist since 1951. I am in part giving him some credit for what he could have done from 45 to 51, which I know is somewhat dubious. His obvious replacement to me is Gren who I definitely rate. As far as Finney goes he did not win anything but took a small time team with no internationals except himself to multiple second place finishes in the league and cup. His national team is exemplary as well. He was one of England's best players in Both the 54 and 58 world cups and was England's most consistent and appears to be best performing players during the whole post war period. In the immediate great postwar period for England from 46 to 48 he basically played every game and scored 12 times in 18 games as a winger including a brace in the 4-0 in Turin. When you compare him top Matthews postwar there is really no comparison, Finney has 76 post war caps to Matthews 37.
I am going to take a deeper dive comparing the great Argentina forwards of the 1940s. Available games for any forward 1940 domestic season: 34 matches In season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches Post season friendlies (vs Chile and Peru): 5 matches Post season tournament (1941 SAC): 4 matches 1941 domestic season: 30 matches Post season tournament: (1942 SAC): 6 matches 1942 domestic season: 30 matches In season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches Post season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 1943 domestic season: 30 games In season friendlies (vs Paraguay): 2 matches Post season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 1944 domestic season: 30 games Post season friendlies (vs Paraguay): 2 matches Post season tournament: (1945 SAC): 6 matches 1945 domestic season: 30 games In season friendlies (vs Paraguay and Uruguay): 4 matches Post season friendlies (vs Brazil): 3 matches Post season tournament: (1946 SAC): 5 matches 1946 domestic season: 30 games No internationals 1947 domestic season: 30 games Post season tournament: (1947 SAC): 7 matches 1948 domestic season: 30 games No internationals 1949 domestic season: 34 games Post season friendlies (vs Paraguay): 2 matches 1950 domestic season: 34 games No internationals Adolfo Pedernera 1940 domestic season: 34 matches 26(16) River Plate 3rd place (Winger) In season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 1 appearance (sub) no goals Post season friendlies (vs Chile and Peru): 5 matches 0 appearances Post season tournament (1941 SAC): 4 matches 3 appearances (3 starts) 0 goals 1941 domestic season: 30 matches 21(13) River Plate 1st place (Winger) Post season tournament: (1942 SAC): 6 matches 5 appearances (4 starts, 1 sub) 2 goals (both vs Ecuador) 1942 domestic season: 30 matches 24(23) River Plate 1st place (CF) In season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 0 appearances Post season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 0 appearances 1943 domestic season: 30 games 26(15) River Plate 2nd place (CF) In season friendlies (vs Paraguay): 2 matches 0 appearances Post season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 0 appearances 1944 domestic season: 30 games 27(6) River Plate 2nd place (CF) Post season friendlies (vs Paraguay): 2 matches 0 appearances Post season tournament: (1945 SAC): 6 matches 0 appearances 1945 domestic season: 30 games 29(11) River Plate 1st place (CF) In season friendlies (vs Paraguay and Uruguay): 4 matches 1 appearance (sub) 1 goal Post season friendlies (vs Brazil): 3 matches 3 appearances (3 start) 2 goals (IF) Post season tournament: (1946 SAC): 5 matches 4 appearances (3 starts, 1 sub) 2 goals (IF) 1946 domestic season: 30 games 24(9) River Plate 3rd place (CF) No internationals 1947 domestic season: 30 games 28(4) Atlanta 16th place (?) Post season tournament: (1947 SAC): 7 matches 0 appearances 1948 domestic season: 30 games 17(2) Huracan 10th place (?) No internationals 1949 domestic season: 34 games Post season friendlies (vs Paraguay): 2 matches Moves to Colombia Millonarios 19(12) 1st place (IF) 1950 domestic season: 34 games No internationals Moves to Colombia Millonarios 24(4) 2nd place (IF) Rene Pontoni (always CF) 1940 domestic season: 34 matches Newells Old Boys (NOB) unknown In season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 0 appearances Post season friendlies (vs Chile and Peru): 5 matches 0 appearances Post season tournament (1941 SAC): 4 matches 0 appearances 1941 domestic season: 30 matches 30(20) NOB 3rd place Post season tournament: (1942 SAC): 6 matches 0 appearances 1942 domestic season: 30 matches 28(23) NOB 4th place In season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 1 appearance (start) 1 goal Post season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 2 appearances (2 starts) 2 goals 1943 domestic season: 30 games 28(10) NOB 12th place In season friendlies (vs Paraguay): 2 matches 0 appearances Post season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 0 appearances 1944 domestic season: 30 games 24(14) NOB 9th place Post season friendlies (vs Paraguay): 2 matches 2 appearances (2 starts) 6 goals Post season tournament: (1945 SAC): 6 matches 5 appearances (5 starts) 4 goals (1 Bolivia, 1 Ecuador, 2 Colombia) 1945 domestic season: 30 games 27(13) San Lorenzo 4th place In season friendlies (vs Paraguay and Uruguay): 4 matches 1 appearance (start) 1 goal Post season friendlies (vs Brazil): 3 matches 2 appearances (1 start, 1 sub) 0 goals Post season tournament: (1946 SAC): 5 matches 2 appearances (2 starts) 0 goals 1946 domestic season: 30 games 29(20) San Lorenzo 1st place No internationals 1947 domestic season: 30 games 28(23) San Lorenzo 5th place Post season tournament: (1947 SAC): 7 matches 4 appearances (3 starts, 1 sub) 4 goals (3 Paraguay, 1 Bolivia) 1948 domestic season: 30 games 16(7) San Lorenzo 6th place (Broke Leg) No internationals 1949 domestic season: 34 games Post season friendlies (vs Paraguay): 2 matches Moves to Colombia Independiente Santa Fe unknown 3rd place 1950 domestic season: 34 games No internationals Moves to Colombia Independiente Santa Fe unknown 8th place Rinaldo Martino (always IF) 1940 domestic season: 34 matches 0 appearances In season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 0 appearances Post season friendlies (vs Chile and Peru): 5 matches 0 appearances Post season tournament (1941 SAC): 4 matches 0 appearances 1941 domestic season: 30 matches 30(13) San Lorenzo 2nd place Post season tournament: (1942 SAC): 6 matches 0 appearances 1942 domestic season: 30 matches 30(25, TS) San Lorenzo 2nd place In season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 1 appearance (start) 2 goals Post season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 1 appearance (start) 1 goals 1943 domestic season: 30 games 27(17) San Lorenzo 3rd place In season friendlies (vs Paraguay): 2 matches 2 appearances (2 starts) 1 goal Post season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 0 appearances 1944 domestic season: 30 games 30(21) San Lorenzo 4th place Post season friendlies (vs Paraguay): 2 matches 2 appearances (2 starts) 2 goals Post season tournament: (1945 SAC): 6 matches 6 appearances (6 starts) 4 goals (1 Bolivia, 1 Ecuador, 1 Colombia, 1 Uruguay) 1945 domestic season: 30 games 30(19) San Lorenzo 4th place In season friendlies (vs Paraguay and Uruguay): 4 matches 4 appearance (4 starts) 5 goals Post season friendlies (vs Brazil): 3 matches 2 appearances (2 starts) 2 goals Post season tournament: (1946 SAC): 5 matches 1 appearances (start) 1 goals 1946 domestic season: 30 games 27(18) San Lorenzo 1st place No internationals 1947 domestic season: 30 games 28(18) San Lorenzo 5th place Post season tournament: (1947 SAC): 7 matches 0 appearances 1948 domestic season: 30 games 22(12) San Lorenzo 6th place No internationals 1949 domestic season: 34 games Post season friendlies (vs Paraguay): 2 matches Moves to Italy Juventus 1949/50 33(18) 1st place 1 cap no goals for Italy (vs England) 1950 domestic season: 34 games No internationals Moves to Uruguay Nacional 1950 18(10) 1st place Angel Labruna (always IF) 1940 domestic season: 34 matches 26(14) River Plate 3rd place In season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 0 appearances Post season friendlies (vs Chile and Peru): 5 matches 0 appearances Post season tournament (1941 SAC): 4 matches 0 appearances 1941 domestic season: 30 matches 29(11) River Plate 1st place Post season tournament: (1942 SAC): 6 matches 0 appearances 1942 domestic season: 30 matches 28(15) River Plate 1st place In season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 0 appearances Post season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 0 appearances 1943 domestic season: 30 games 23(23, TS) River Plate 2nd place In season friendlies (vs Paraguay): 2 matches 0 appearances Post season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 0 appearances 1944 domestic season: 30 games 30(25) River Plate 2nd place Post season friendlies (vs Paraguay): 2 matches 0 appearances Post season tournament: (1945 SAC): 6 matches 0 appearances 1945 domestic season: 30 games 29(25, TS) River Plate 1st place In season friendlies (vs Paraguay and Uruguay): 4 matches 2 appearance (2 subs) 0 goals Post season friendlies (vs Brazil): 3 matches 3 appearance (2 starts, 1 sub) 1 goal Post season tournament: (1946 SAC): 5 matches 4 appearances (4 starts) 5 goals (2 Bolivia, 2 Chile, 1 Uruguay) 1946 domestic season: 30 games 27(15) River Plate 3rd place No internationals 1947 domestic season: 30 games 18(16) River Plate 1st place Post season tournament: (1947 SAC): 7 matches 0 appearances 1948 domestic season: 30 games 22(16) River Plate 2nd place No internationals 1949 domestic season: 34 games 32(16) River Plate 2nd place Post season friendlies (vs Paraguay): 2 matches 2 appearances (2 starts) 2 goals 1950 domestic season: 34 games 33(20) River Plate 4th place No internationals Norberto Mendez (always IF) 1940 domestic season: 34 matches 0 appearances In season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 0 appearances Post season friendlies (vs Chile and Peru): 5 matches 0 appearances Post season tournament (1941 SAC): 4 matches 0 appearances 1941 domestic season: 30 matches 26(6) Huracan 6th place Post season tournament: (1942 SAC): 6 matches 0 appearances 1942 domestic season: 30 matches 29(7) Huracan 3rd place In season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 0 appearances Post season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 0 appearances 1943 domestic season: 30 games 17(4) Huracan 4th place In season friendlies (vs Paraguay): 2 matches 0 appearances Post season friendlies (vs Uruguay): 2 matches 0 appearances 1944 domestic season: 30 games 30(10) Huracan 7th place Post season friendlies (vs Paraguay): 2 matches 1 appearance (1 start) 0 goals Post season tournament: (1945 SAC): 6 matches 5 appearances (4 starts, 1 sub) 6 goals (2 Colombia, 1 Chile, 3 Brazil) 1945 domestic season: 30 games 23(13) Huracan 5th place In season friendlies (vs Paraguay and Uruguay): 4 matches 4 appearance (4 starts) 1 goal Post season friendlies (vs Brazil): 3 matches 1 appearance (starts) 0 goals Post season tournament: (1946 SAC): 5 matches 5 appearances (4 starts, 1 sub) 5 goals (2 Bolivia, 1 Uruguay, 2 Brazil) 1946 domestic season: 30 games 25(18) Huracan 9th place No internationals 1947 domestic season: 30 games 27(9) Huracan 11th place Post season tournament: (1947 SAC): 7 matches 7 appearances (7 starts) 6 goals (1 Paraguay, 2 Bolivia, 1 Ecuador, 2 Uruguay) 1948 domestic season: 30 games 25(15) Racing 4th place No internationals 1949 domestic season: 34 games 31(13) Racing 1st place Post season friendlies (vs Paraguay): 2 matches 2 appearances (2 starts) 0 goals 1950 domestic season: 34 games 25(11) Racing 1st place No internationals A few of takeaways. This does not make Pedernera look good. Pedernera has been starting wing for River Plate since 1936 but does not establish himself as first choice for national team until after the 1940 season. He is first choice wing for 41 and 42 SAC. After what is supposed to be his best season in 1942 when he switches to CF for River which creates the machine he is not capped in favor of Pontoni. during and after the 43 season he is not capped in favor of Saralanga. During and after the 44 season he is not capped in favor of Pontoni. The 45 season is a big season for him winning the league without Moreno and being first choice for the national team. He is not capped in 47 SAC in favor of Mendez, Pontoni, Di Stefano, and Moreno and has some strange years moving around to different teams that perform poorly before moving to Colombia where it is said he was good. Pontoni is favored above Pedernera throughout his whole career when they are both competing for CF outside of the 1945 season, and is still favored ahead of Di Stefano in 47 despite Di Stefano being top scorer and champion. Pontoni was far ahead of Pedernera in total caps and would be even further ahead if there were any internationals associated with the 46 season in which he was the best player and champion. The leg break in 48 really hampered his career, he was apparently a shadow of himself in Colombia. Martino is first choice inside forward first choice from the 42 through the 45 season, until he loses his spot after the 45 season to a combination of Labruna and Mendez. He then is held out of 47 by Mendez and Moreno's return to Argentina. Both Pontoni and Martino are unlucky there were no internationals played during or after the 46 season, their signature domestic season. He was apparently excellent in Italy and Uruguay, winning two titles in one year and immediately being capped for Italy vs England where he apparently played well. Labruna only reached first choice after the 45 season replacing Martino. He then lost his spot to a returning Moreno in 47. In the 50s he would regain his place as first choice for much of the decade. Mendez is the underrated one for me. Never loses his place once established in the national team, favored over all other inside forwards including Moreno who had to move to the other side to accommodate Mendez. He also scores against all the top teams in the SACs while his more famous teammates do not. First choice into the 50s
There is another site Fla-Estatística: http://www.flaestatistica.com/jogos_oficiais.html http://www.flaestatistica.com/jogadores.html I didn't check that out, but maybe it has some valuable information about Leonidas. Anyway, when I have time I'll go back to the newspapers and check Leonidas's status in Brazil during the 30's and 40's that could clarify more things.
Can you say what was 'revolutionary' about it compared to, say, that Schalke attack. To me both Matthews and Walter look a bit underwhelming on highlights, next to some of their (semi-)contemporaries. From my own country I also say/said that about Lenstra though I recognize his accomplishments (including goals against the world champion as 36 years old and other things) have substance. Someone like Sekularac or Wilkes even look impressive with modern eyes (in my opinion). Matthews is of course slightly different in that he played in an universally recognized top league, was a professional, and won the Home Championships a few times (with opposition that was not much worse as the typical Copa America of around that time). People can't have it both ways. Either it is an upset and miracle like Greece in 2004 (the Zagorakis of his time), or it was always a top league and top country so that exploits against top class foreign opposition don't matter so much (N.B. I forgot to mention those Austria '54 goals were two penalties). This is true and it is difficult. The 'mirror' image of this is though Walter stat padding his way between 1940 and 1942 against crippled opposition. Example: 62% of his non-penalty goals for the national side are scored in those three years against terrorized opposition. The rest is scored in all those other years. In the main I agree there are logical things to deduce Finney his quality, superseding the lack of trophies, but don't think the World Cups are one of them. Despite not really being a symbol of something (like Matthews, Walter, Marzolini etc.) his standing is still high.
1930-1940 Forward: Matthias Sindelar (Austria Vienna, Austria) Forward: Giuseppe Meazza (Inter Milan, Italy) Forward: Oldrich Nejedly (Sparta Prague, Czechoslovakia) Wing: Cliff Bastin (Arsenal, England) Wing: Carlos Peucelle (River Plate, Argentina) Halfback: Fritz Szepan (Schalke, Germany) Halfback: Gygory Sarosi (Ferencvaros, Hungary) Halfback: Walter Nausch (Austria Vienna, Austria) Fullback: Eddie Hapgood (Arsenal, England) Fullback: Karl Sesta (Austria Vienna, Austria) Goalkeeper: Frantisek Planicka (Slavia Prague, Czechoslovakia) Honorable Mention: Braine, Varallo, Ciocca, Ferrari, Zsichek, Brook, Kostalek, Lazar, Quincoces, Minelli, Hiden Toughest decisions were Nejedly vs Braine and Peucelle vs Brook.
1925-1935 Forward: Hughie Gallacher (Airdrieonians, Newcastle, Scotland) Forward: Alex James (Preston, Arsenal, Scotland) Forward: Fritz Gschweidl (First Vienna, Austria) Wing: Raimundo Orsi (Independiente, Juventus, Argentina, Italy) Wing: Antonin Puc (Slavia Prague, Czechoslovakia) Halfback: Josef Smistik (Rapid Vienna, Austria) Halfback: Luis Monti (San Lorenzo, Juventus, Argentina, Italy) Halfback: Alvaro Gestido (Penarol, Uruguay) Fullback: Josef Blum (First Vienna, Austria) Fullback: Eraldo Monzeglio (Bologna, Italy) Goalkeeper: Giampiero Combi (Juventus, Italy) Honorable Mention: Dean, McGory, Schiavio, Schall, Ivar, Takacs, Jackson, Kohut, Goodall, Blenkinsop, Caligaris, Rosetta
1920-1930 Forward: Gyorgy Orth (MTK, Hungary) Forward: Hector Scarone (Nacional, Uruguay) Forward: Josep Samiter (Barcelona, Spain) Wing: Alan Morton (Rangers, Scotland) Wing: Ferdinand Wesely (Rapid Vienna, Austria) Halfback: Jose Leandro Andrade (Bella Vista, Nacional, Uruguay) Halfback: Karel Pesek (Sparta Prague, Czechoslovakia) Halfback: Jimmy McMullan (Park Thistle, Manchester City, Scotland) Fullback: Jose Nasazzi (Bella Vista, Uruguay) Fullback: Ludovico Bidoglio (Boca Junior, Argentina) Goalkeeper: Ricardo Zamora (Barcelona, Espanol, Spain) Honorable Mention: Libonatti, Seoane, Walker, Baloncieri, Petit, Petrone, Kolenaty, Meikljohn, Scott, Mazali
I'm certainly tending to agree with Tom and Puck about Finney, and I see both arguments re: Walter and guess the truth is a mix of both (there are indications perhaps that if footage from earlier years was available it'd seem a bit more impressive overall but hard to be sure - the most impressive thing I notice from some World Cup footage seems to be some crisp, precise passing from him but I see that perhaps he and Matthews do seem old-fashioned but on the other hand Matthews does seem to manage to be very effective...and in a lot of the available footage is actually an 'old man' in footballing terms anyway lol!). On Pedernera I wonder whether the fact he didn't play as a typical centre-forward affected the NT caps - maybe Argentina were not keen on copying the River Plate system, but then again you'd think if it/he was so good then they'd try to do that and omit the natural centre-forward if necessary. On Leonidas, Tom on the site you linked, there is actually a short biography of him and I translated it and it explains that in 1934 he had to choose between Vasco and the Brazil NT, even though some team-mates delayed the decision past the deadline given by the national football authorities and got around it I think it said. He chose to sign the agreement with the national authorities and couldn't then play for Vasco.
We reached the podium of the Olympics in the first four tournaments (1908 to 1924). Which were the official world championships until the World Cup started. As usual, it is wiped out from history by the cartel.
1915-1925 Forward: Arthur Friedenreich (Ypiranga, Paulistano, Brazil) Forward: Charlie Buchan (Sunderland, England) Forward: Kalman Konrad (MTK, Austria Vienna, Hungary) Wing: Angel Romano (Nacional, Uruguay) Wing: Josef Braun (MTK, Hungary) Halfback: Alfredo Zibechi (Wanderers, Nacional, Uruguay) Halfback: William Cringan (Sunderland, Ayr United, Celtic, Scotland) Halfback: Vilmos Kertesz (MTK Hungary) Fullback: Ephraim Longworth (Liverpool, England) Fullback: Renzo De Vecchi (Genoa, Italy) Goalkeeper: Americo Tesoriere (Boca Juniors, Argentina) Honorable Mention: Janda, Schaffer, Kuthan, Gallagher, Gradi, Vanzzino
1910-1920 Forward: Jose Piendibene (Penarol, Uruguay) Forward: Jimmy McMenemy (Celtic, Scotland) Forward: Imre Schlosser (Ferencvaros, MTK, Hungary) Wing: Billy Lacey (Everton, Liverpool. Ireland) Wing: Poul Nielsen (KB Kobenhavn, Denmark) Halfback: Andy Ducat (Arsenal, Aston Villa, England) Halfback: Nils Middelboe (KB Kobenhavn, Chelsea, Denmark) Halfback: Jimmy Gordon (Rangers, Scotland) Fullback: Alfredo Foglino (Nacional, Uruguay) Fullback: Alec McNair (Celtic, Scotland) Goalkeeper: Jimmy Brownlie (Third Lanark, Scotland) Honorable Mention: Reid, Ohaco, Pacheco, Benincasa, Saporiti