Taegeuk Warriors General Transfer Thread Part II

Discussion in 'Korean Players Abroad' started by jsk14, Sep 11, 2013.

  1. Chorok

    Chorok Member+

    Mar 10, 2012
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    But he couldn't have run back to Korea after a few bad years. He'd be banned from playing and forced to find options overseas like Suk Hyunjun right now.
     
  2. takeuchi

    takeuchi Member+

    Jan 20, 2013
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    When did this 5 yr ban start? YJT entered the Korean draft after spending 2/3 yrs in Bundesliga.

    http://us.soccerway.com/players/ju-tae-yun/191543/
     
  3. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    How many chances did Suk get despite having far less hype from media than RSW? 3 all at the top level? Thats 3 out of the 5 year period. So the risk is not getting play time in the immediate but the gap at years 4-5. And Suk has a job... he took a paycheck over progressing his career. Perhaps Suk could have found a lower-paying option at a lower tier or in Japan. So how great is that 2 year risk? I think pretty small.

    And as far as I could tell he could have signed a permanent deal now, or chosen a club with a more clearly defined path for youth players. The two issues I have are the loan which makes the whole next year a giant tryout (and the intrinsic risks of tryouts such as injury) and choosing Leverkusen who has preferred to buy over develop.
     
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  4. LeVin

    LeVin Member+

    Jun 21, 2012
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    There is something about big, tall strike who can also play with his foot somewhat. Market usually open for those types despite intermittent successes. Less hardware-gifted players with technical skills as their primary weapon however...
     
  5. Ohhii

    Ohhii Member+

    Nov 19, 2012
    Club:
    FC Seoul
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Players always aim to play their best and stay healthy. It's not any different than what he's been doing his entire career. Athletes are there to compete. Knowing you'll be the understudy playing for the reserves for up to 4 years while 2 exemption chances pass you by is not the better deal. Would we really want one of our best youths to be stuck in Dortmund forced to be looking for options in relegation candidates and 2.bundes? If he doesn't impress at Leverkusen it means he's not ready and he'll go back to Jeju where he can develop under the manager that raised two of the best Korean players of this generation. Still going to tell me that's he's worse off in Jeju than in the Dortmund rejects market? How the hell do you know if a Bundealiga club would be eager to sign him anyway.

    Yun JT got off with a 3 year ban and he's lucky. You shouldn't want to see another Yun Ju Tae or Suk. You think the risk was small? One is playing in the desert and the other had to spend 6 months looking for a new club while playing as a translator until they let him back home out of pity. Look at how behind Yun Ju Tae is compared to his peers. The kid is turning 24 and will be lucky to have 1 start this season. If you don't care if Korea's domestic leagues hemorrhages talent and would rather spend time seeing if some kid started for his division 2 side that's fine. But you lot need to get some facts straight. Dortmund is not some promised land for young players and putting your future up to the Klopp rejects market not a good thing. It's not a better option for players like Ryu. Going off on your own is discouraged for a reason. He wasn't in the same boat as Son or Kiu or Lee Seung Woo or any of our Kleague exports. Having university players foolishly chase some dream of European glory is destructive behavior for Korean football and for themselves.

    I'm tired of hearing this forum being sore from the Dortmund saga and encouraging kids to go to Europe for the sake of having more KPAs to follow. You guys put too much weight on playing aboard, like some Gangnam mother about SKY/Ivy league. Do you really care for Ryu's career and development? Or is this about wanting to see fellow countrymen in prestigious clubs and leagues ASAP.
     
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  6. Chingoo

    Chingoo Member+

    Feb 10, 2010
    Only like 2-3 are worth following anyway lol
     
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  7. CanadianGook

    CanadianGook Member

    Jun 16, 2005
    #82 CanadianGook, Dec 14, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2013
    Going to europe is a positive move for any youth player...but the team is important. it doesnt have to be the best team in terms of league success but a team with a good youth development program. eg include hsm's hamburg experience, many german teams, spanish teams and some english teams as well.

    I think the bsk peeps dont want kpa's to go to europe for the sake of following euro players so dont undermine our intelligence and generalise.

    developing at a young age in europe has benefits and I wouldnt blame any kid going to europe as opposed to staying in korea. they have world class trainers training facilities and exposure. so why not?
     
  8. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    You address a lot of different points and all are somewhat valid but I'll take on a few

    First and most importantly, RSW does NOT own the option. Just like Ji at SAFC, if someone in leverkusen takes a fancy to him, or thinks they can pawn him off for marketing, he could be stuck playing for reserves, BL2, etc. All the issues you worry about with YJT are still applicable to RSW. If RSW hates it and wants to go back home, he has NO option to do so... and could be like NTH stuck begging desert teams to pay off his escape.

    Again, I cannot express this strongly enough. RSW by signing a loan is in a worse spot than with a permanent deal. If he gets hurt at the wrong time, he may never get a chance in Europe again. If he does well enough but not great, he could be stuck in Europe. That option at the end of 1 yr is valuable to leverkusen not to RSW.

    Second, lets not bring this K league losing talent thing up. If he had decided to go to J league regardless of five year ban before doing this deal, would you be arguing as vociferously? Obviously the health of the K league is an important factor in the health of Korean football. But this is a global football eonomic problem, whether you're talking about MLS (which has handled it fairly gracefully even if their football sucks), Eredivisie, Scotland, or even non-PSG L1.

    Next, as for Europe being all that, aren't I arguing the reverse? I'm saying going to Leverkusen is NOT the best option. Picking a team is all about fit. Ji going to Sunderland was terrible not because he went to Europe or not, but because he went to a club that values physical forwards and has mis-sized expectations resulting in few opportunities for kids. If Koo had gone to Young Boys, it would have been a similarly bad move. How many kids get out of Swiss leagues? Yun to QPR was a bad move. KSW to QPR would have been bad as well.

    And by choosing Leverkusen, he's chosen a club where nearly everyone of their stars was a purchase. Go across the BL and there are clubs which are focused on developing from their youth programs/reserves and those which aren't.

    As for getting chances if he were to fail out of Dortmund... well that s*** happens all the time if you're at a strong youth program. PJB gets picked up by Furth and even gets BL time. Even failing there, he gets another chance with KSC. The BL is littered with Dortmund rejects... like Reus.

    Finally, lets STOP putting out failures like Suk out there as a warning against koreans going abroad. First hes terrible and would have failed in ANY league that he's in. The fact that he couldn't get going despite lots of playing time even in the diluted Eredivisie is a good example of that. Second, the dude has THREE years to make his name. His case is no PCY sob story of no minutes.

    Should he wait til he's too old or military exemption starts hanging over his career? Frankly, pre-my time at BSK it seemed nearly all the KPAs I read about followed that route and it didn't make a lick of difference like Cho Won Hee.

    Or be like PCY stuck in the reserves despite having developed far further along. Or be like KSW and wistfully wishing for that perfect opportunity that will never come as military duty comes calling.

    And on the other end, JDW was thrown as an example of what not to do (even by me) but his quality still allowed for the opportunity to Augsburg and after this s*** time at Sunderland, should have plenty of opportunities still to make his name.
     
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  9. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
  10. takeuchi

    takeuchi Member+

    Jan 20, 2013
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Sigh, not sure why I can't rep. Anyways, to add further to your post... it takes longer than 1 yr to adjust to new environment. Take out LCY & legendary Cha Bum Keun... all KPAs struggled initially. Even with Son around to help RSW adjust, 1 yr is too short to make an impression. For RSW's case... could only be 6 month if he participates in Asian games.
     
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  11. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Not all but even son failed in his first go around. It's hard.
     
  12. nmssis

    nmssis Member+

    May 21, 2011
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    look at ki...not exactly a remarkable first season at Celtic either.... even CBK himself said that he struggled at first and deeply considered coming back home. other than the club life itself, which I'm sure it's always difficult, but the life outside the club was surely more difficult for CBK's early years than anyone now going over to Germany.

    I we fans were in YJT's situation, would we have made different choices...I mean, a club in Germany came calling. It would be very difficult to remove the emotional aspect of decision making.
     
  13. Ohhii

    Ohhii Member+

    Nov 19, 2012
    Club:
    FC Seoul
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Are you saying there's a set option to buy because that's news to me. He's a Jeju United's player not Leverkuesn's. I don't see how this paragraph applies to his loan or how it isn't made even worse by a permanent deal.
    In Eredivisie, L1, and every other league in Europe the player is attached to clubs as a youth and university is not a place to go if you want to be playing professionally. It's only in Korea that we have the majority of our best players go trough universities. The problem is not global. Kleague losing talent has not been a problem. You can't even call it "losing" really. If Ryu was a kleague player in the summer and got sold there'd be no problem. Compare Kleague exports; Ji, Ki, Lee CY, Koo, Park JY to kids dodging the draft system; Suk, Yun Jun Tae, Lee Yong Jae, and the rest who's names isn't even remembered. On one side clubs made cash and improved the overall quality of Korean players, on the other we got nothing but wasted years off of some of our brightest youths. Even if Kleague exports fail their football skills didn't have much more to gain by staying in Korea anyway, unlike the latter.

    If we want to export youth players it should be making a profit and/or helping them develop into better players. Son, Almeria kids, and Barca kids are examples of the right way. They went with the KFA's assistance. I'd be completely fine if they were going to other leagues and finding success on their own but that so rarely happens and the few that do are in the J.league not Europe. They're all players that come out of the KFA system and we don't want to be wasting resources.
    And remember when you said Wookie made a mistake not going to QPR? lol
    You're saying picking a team is all about fit and i'm following what you advocate. I think Leverkusen is the better fit for Ryu and Kleague is the better fit for university players. Nobody has more experience with transitioning Korean university players than the Korean teams.
    Sorry but that's a load of crap. Leverkusen is doing the same thing as Dortmund. Buy a promising young player, wait for him to mature and sell for profit. Don't mistake an excellent manager for a great youth system. Reus was 16 when he moved and it was a smart one if you look at the playing time he got. He's no less a reject than Fabregas. PJB hardly got any chances for Furth.
     
  14. Ohhii

    Ohhii Member+

    Nov 19, 2012
    Club:
    FC Seoul
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    And this is what i really have a problem with what you say. I don't care if Ryu went to Dortmund instead of Leverkusen. Both are fine clubs for him. But you speak as if players that couldn't find success in Europe are flat out failures. Seems the difference between our views is that I want Korean players to succeed. You want Korean players to succeed in Europe and only in Europe, and players that couldn't find success in Europe doesn't deserve it because "they're terrible". It neglects the consequences it has on players who can't make it and the opportunity costs of what they could have had if they stayed in Korea.

    Why are you so bent on our players going to Europe when you just said picking a team is all about fit. You talk like Wookie is a failure for rejecting move to Europe. You said QPR was a bad move. Would some mid table Russian side be any better for you? For staying in Korea he learned so much from playing under Kim Ho Gon, he became our number 1 striker option when he was even less accomplished than Suk back in his youth. What could have been a better fit than that?? Park JY played at Korea University, came to FC Seoul, established himself as Korea's future striker and then went on to League 1. Ji came to the Kleague out of the academy, played with the U23s when he was 18, was the senior team's top scorer in the Asian Cup, and was bought in the following summer. How is Ji on the other end??

    Suk forced his way into an Ajax trial and got a contract only to became a disposable journeyman who was sold to the middle east for a stupid amount of cash because he meets the AFC quota. You can't just conveniently label him as shite and end it there when he looked so good at U20 level. Dortmund's youth development doesn't even compare to Ajax's track record. The potential was there and it was squandered by a terrible move.

    If Ryu went a permanent deal and stuck with the reserves for years would it greater his chance for playing with the first team? Yes. Is the cost of giving up so much time worth it when there's another club he could benefit from playing at? No.
     
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  15. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Yes there's an option to buy acc to german media. Thus the downside is ALL still there outside the period between end of the contract and end of ban.

    you're pointing out failures and yet KJC wasted a whole year as did Ji and Ki most of one. Perhaps Suk/YJT/LYJ would have failed in Korea as well.

    You can't magically draw the line with "KFAs assistance" as somehow being a major variable in these kids' development. Some made it and some didn't. Period. You can't retroactively link correlation with results.

    I agree on the university variable but it only changes the timing of when the same transition happens in European kids as they turn 16 (I think thats the line) and have a chance to walk away with only a minor development fee going back to developing club.

    Reus was a reject. He wasn't getting playing time not because he was being blocked for first team PT but because he was being outshined at Dortmund. There are too many articles on this and his late development that he fully acknowledges

    Leverkusen is NOT doing the same thing as Dortmund. Dortmund doesn't sell for profit (at least not in the immediate). Dude, just check out their track record. Look at the age of the stars of both clubs. Tell me that they're running the same strategy.

    Wolfsburg has a youth program worth poaching as we saw with PJB/Brandt and now Arnold etc. Even sad Hamburg has used their reserves/youths more effectively than with Lam, Arslan and Beister.

    Leverkusen's cupboard is so bare that they're having to go buy a whole bunch of kids to catch up on time. Who knows if Voller's new strategy (he's new btw) will work? And now RSW will be the guinea pig.
     
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  16. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    #91 skimmilk, Dec 15, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2013
    Again, first you're under the assumption that the risk of being stuck in reserves for three years in not a possibility. IT IS. There is NO option for Ryu to escape this fate. The only option is for Leverkusen to throw him back to korea.

    Suk did not look so good at Ajax and nor was he really a product of their youth system. And Ajax of now has had their system messed up with European poaching. So Ajax' historical record is moot (and Dortmund's has changed significantly in the past several years as well because they were much different before this rebirth).

    As for KSW I personally don't think that its a failure for not being in Europe. Stop bundling me in with every Euro-fanboy that you appear to have prejudices about. All these players talk about dreaming of playing in the PL. They're not failing me, they're failing their own dreams. I can guarantee that KSW every transfer window is hoping his agent will call with a good chance. And its no accident that Ki thinks rather highly of his own European playing status either.

    I'd rather have good players for the KNT in general regardless of what league they play for.

    Yes on a personal enjoyment level, I'd rather have more good Koreans playing in Europe because I can watch on my TV on DVR in HD rather than losing my job by watching streams in middle of the night. But make no mistake, Id rather have good players rather than more Suks or even PCY/Ji situations.

    When did I say that KSW made a mistake not going to QPR? I thought Yun made a mistake going to QPR... if I thought anything I would have understood his going because of his vanishing window and that dream.
     
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  17. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
  18. Ohhii

    Ohhii Member+

    Nov 19, 2012
    Club:
    FC Seoul
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Why do you even have a problem with this loan if you deem it the same thing?
    See it wouldn't matter for Koo or Ji or Ki . They've more or less finished their development in Korea and their clubs made a profit. They found a club they liked and they're sure the club wants them enough to be forking over cash. There's no opportunity cost. It was the time to go.

    I can draw a line with them and it's not a magical one. Suk, YJT, LYJ are not some random kids that came out of nowhere. Perhaps they would have failed to transition in Korea but that's unlikely. YJT entered back into the draft and got picked up by Seoul. Clearly he's a valued player. The ones who were assisted went as teenagers into their youth system. If they didn't like it they came back like Ji and Baek Sung Dong did. Son even went back to Germany after he returned to Seoul. The 3 dropout boys went to Europe on their own and got stranded in a foreign country. It was them not realizing that they're too old for this. KFA discourages this and it's one of the few things they're right on despite having a backwards way of enforcing it. It wouldn't have made a difference if it was the KFA that sent them or not but they've not sent players that old and there would have been a much easier to return to Korea. It's just safer with someone else holding your hand rather than going as a free agent.
    Dortmund are forced into selling. They don't have a choice. Their wage bill is too low to keep their stars. Lewa makes less than Park JY. They have stars but so does Leverkusen. Only recently have they gotten the money to bring in matured players and that's only because they've had to sell their previous one.
     
  19. Ohhii

    Ohhii Member+

    Nov 19, 2012
    Club:
    FC Seoul
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    I'm not attacking you personally. I've told you before i don't care what you watch nor do i label you as some Euro crazy fanboy. You are stating reasons for your argument that neglect the opportunity in Korea. So i have a problem with those statements. It's not personal. Don't take it that way. We're arguing about football here and i'd appreciated we all kept it that way.

    I never thought you wanted more Suks or Park JY's. I'm telling you why more of them will show up if they followed what you say. Kim Shin Wook wants to go but they were really iffy moves that came along nor was he really that ready as a player. If military service rolls around that's unfortunate but that's something that he couldn't control. It's his dreams to reach Europe but reality is reality. He shouldn't risk so much of what he's worked for. Millions of others would kill to have the same. All players should learn to do the same
     
  20. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    Same downside. LESS protection for RSW. So its WORSE. Which was my original point. You make it sound like this loan is BETTER than a permanent deal which is clearly wrong.

    This is the biggest fallacy and 20/20 hindsight that you have here. Again, correlation is NOT causation. Perhaps these kids succeeded because they were better (and thus had KFA support). Or perhaps its just random. There's no guarantee these kids would have succeeded in Korea... or perhaps even if they made themselves into decent and even KNT caliber players that they would have had another crack at Europe. There's no way to tell.

    Now if you ask these kids after their careers are over how they feel, I'm sure you'll get the wide range of answers, but I'm sure more than a few will have enjoyed their attempt at their dreams. Our best player is being ignored in the championship right now and there's no certainty that our best players in the K league would get noticed and get a chance at the next level (especially after losing 3 years of pre-military lifespan).

    You don't have to explain dortmund to me. That's my point. Leverkusen's financial situation is far different than Dortmund's. And similarly, their handling of youths are far different. To blanket it all into the same basket is being naive.
     
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  21. skimmilk

    skimmilk Member+

    Apr 22, 2010
    Texas, USA
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    I'm not taking it personal. But on the other hand you're making it sound like I'm all europe or fail which is certainly the approach of some posters here.

    Fact of the matter is that he caught the eye of one of the best talent evaluators out there. Its one thing if it were QPR ringing him up. But cmon Dortmund. Obviously the K-league is a great place for players to develop but its a rare chance and as I said, very small difference in risk to what he's got now.

    Now I'm not sure whats the logic behind Leverkusen but it sniffs of lots of misguided logic, both from the player (that's where SHM is!) to the team (we need koreans so we don't lose our LG money!)
     
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  22. Ohhii

    Ohhii Member+

    Nov 19, 2012
    Club:
    FC Seoul
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    lol. joke aside (i hope)

    I'm getting that you suggest that players should just sign for Europe if they get the chance since it won't make much of a difference. It's not hard for it to come off as Europe or fail. Like how you saw me as hater of euro fanboys for arguing for staying in Korea. Fact of the matter is less kids are trying their luck as FAs now. At least in Europe...

    Yeah it was Dortmund but it was clear that it was going to be Dortmund2 first and he'd rather just play elsewhere. That's not such a crazy idea, i mean that's what Reus and Fabregas did to solve competition. If Ryu's fears were false than Dortmund should have told him so. If Klopp is right about him it shouldn't make a difference.
     
  23. dudedudedude

    dudedudedude Member+

    Aug 3, 2008
    Baltimore, MD
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    #98 dudedudedude, Dec 15, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2013
    what skims saying is you don't go from
    Borussia Dortmund -----> immediate failure (IE no club or back to an Asian league)

    You go Borussia Dortmund ---> loaned to bundesliga club --> re-evaluated by borussia dortmund --> If they don't like you they sell you to a lesser club usually within the bundesliga --> If he fails at the lesser club then then back to some other league

    RSW is not going to get that many minutes at Bayer leverkusen so whats the point of NOT joining Borussia dortmund. We all thought playing minutes were the reason why he stayed in Korea.

    Reus didn't take the Fabregas route (he wasn't a top talent who wanted a pro contract at 17). he wasn't considered a talent. He was left to fend off for himself which he did. Borussia dortmund wasn't even good back then. Klopp is the main reason for the resurgence of borussia dortumund.

    Look what wolfsburg did with Koo. He didn't fit in initially so they loaned him to FC Augsburg (they were recently promoted from bundesliga back then). Most bottom tiered teams love taking in rejects.

    Takashi usami is another example.
     
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  24. Ohhii

    Ohhii Member+

    Nov 19, 2012
    Club:
    FC Seoul
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    That's what he's saying and i'm saying that's the worse option. We're not agreeing about the loan thing.

    RSW might not get many minutes in Bayer Leverkusen but it'll more likely for them than for Dortmund.

    Reus might not have been a top talent but what him and Fabregas did is essentially the same. They left because of competition and for minutes. Doesn't matter the reason they did it or how they came upon it.
     
  25. dudedudedude

    dudedudedude Member+

    Aug 3, 2008
    Baltimore, MD
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea Republic
    #100 dudedudedude, Dec 15, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2013
    Fabregas was not a reject. He wanted a pro contract at Arsenal. He played in the premiere league at 16-17 years old on one of the best squads in the WORLD. Arsenal were at there best back then.

    Reus was a reject who went to 3rd division. Totally different.

    RSW only has a loan deal so if he fails he could be out of Europe for good. There is less room for error here.
     
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