We are all disappointed in how easy teams are finding their way through our midfield. And we wonder why given our talent pool. Sure some are young. But still, right? Is it personnel or is it poor tactics? Well as always I'm sure it's partly both. Always is. But to get run over as badly as we did in the SJ game you have to look at the tactics. I did and this is what I saw. When the opponent had the ball we — by intent or accident — were playing some sort of weak zonal system. In this game there were times where we were defending with 8 or 9 players behind the ball but somehow all the SJ players were still wide open. We were "defending" with a widely-spread regularly-spaced grid that would slowly roaming around the field as SJ passed the ball around. This left huge, simple to find gaps in the grid for SJ players to occupy. So SJ passers and receivers alike were repeatedly open. And facing little to no pressure. This happens throughout the game but I'm just going to illustrate it with just one example. Their first goal and what led up to it. Minute 60:05: We had just finished handling a dangerous attack in our box and Corona (unnecessarily in my opinion) decided to booted the ball out of the box to the midfield stripe. We have only Antuna and Ibra forward and a thirty yard gap behind them. The ball goes straight to a SJ player who heads it to his wide open teammate with acres of space around him. 7 seconds later (60:12): The wide open SJ player who received the header then turns and makes a simple pass to a wide open Vako. Note that we have eight players back and SJ is attacking with seven. But somehow every SJ player other than Wondo has five to ten yards of space between them and the nearest Galaxy player. Which literally means each SJ player is being given his a 10-20yd diameter circle of Galaxy free space to operate in. Meanwhile rather than man-mark Wondo we play a zone that allows him to occupy the gap between our cb's, making us vulnerable while also allowing him to occupy both of our cb's. Still 60:12 and 1/2 second: Under zero pressure Vako quickly and easily turns to attack the space open in front of him. After Vako turns we are in a lot of trouble despite still having numbers up. The trouble stems from the naive zone we were playing with so much open space and everyone being caught in no mans land. Everyone was in between one player and the other. That leads to divided, unclear responsibilities. Even if they did know which player to pick up they have allowed so much time and space it may be too late anyway. 1. Skjkj isn't sure if he should stay wide to protect against the attacking winger. Or should he come inside to help with SJ attacker headed in Gonzalez's direction? He decides to slowly hedge toward the middle and ends up in position to defend neither. 2. Notice that while Corona is in theory helping - he's goal side of a player - he hasn't recognized the danger presented by that extra SJ player I just mentioned. He should have picked him up. 3. Gonzales is now doubly frozen - he has to worry about both Wondo beside him as well as the SJ player who is unmarked and about to enter the box on his left. He picks the bigger danger and stays with Wondo. 4. Steres likewise is a state of uncertainty. Wondo at this point is still in the gap and neither cb has committed to pick him up. Should he step up to help close down Vako? If he does then he is allowing Wondo to drift into the space he just occupied and wide open on the edge of the box. So he stays back and helps with Wondo. 5. E. Alvarez, like Skjoiok, started in a zonal position in between players and ended up too far away to really help with either the winger attacking behind him or with closing down Vako. 6. That leaves JDS alone as the only person who can dash over to close down the open Vako even if it means the SJ player right behind will soon be open at the edge of the box. 60:15 Vako takes advantage of JDS's momentum, cuts inside on him and ends up getting off this spectacular shot. Goal SJE. Now in this case, it took an absolutely fantastic shot to score. And yes JDS over committed in the close down. But part of the reason for the overcommit was the distance he had to cover and the urgency to get there. But the bigger lesson - look at the 7 white jerseys above and yet literally only Wondo is marked. Every other Galaxy player has been either been caught between assignments, double marking the same guy or having to rush over for some last second emergency defending. And remember we cleared the ball to half line exactly 10 seconds before this score takes place. From that point all SJ had to do to get to this point was one open header, one open pass and then one cutback. Needless to say for those that watched the game our midfield looked like swiss cheese all night long. I think the answer for our guys is man marking when defending. Because whatever GBS has them doing - it ain't working.
I posted this in the SJ pbp game thread and the pics worked. But I decided it was general enough (about tactics in general, not the game) to move it to it's own thread. Does someone know how to make my attachments visible in line in the above post?
View attachment 157014 I think when you post an image you have to then click on the "full image" button after you upload it but before you hit "reply" to get the full image to appear instead of the link. Don't know if you can retroactively change them after you make a post. I'll try. EDIT: Yes, if you click on "edit" and then "more options" it gives you the option to change your uploaded pictures to full image so they show up in the body of the post.
Oh, just realized -- the other issue might be if you just copied your post from the other thread and then pasted it into this one, you are just pasting the link to the other post -- you need to delete those links and re-upload the photos so they appear in this new post.
It’s telling me 30 min already so no editing. Maybe just delete thread. I’m too tired to go back and redo it.
I think I fixed it. Love the idea of a thread strictly for discussions of tactics. I hope some of our other very knowledgeable Galaxy fans contribute here.
Just a casual observation from your opponent supporter as I don't see that many LA games. It seems like LAG is built to counter quickly on the wings (or through Ibra in the middle then out to the wings) and then cross in for an Ibra head (or some other Ibra magic). That means you'll likely always have 7 or 8 players back, except on free kicks which you are also built to take advantage of. I'm not sure if that is GBS' will but I'm guessing not (it's not at all how he played in Columbus... it feels very Kinnear minded to me). This was similar to the tactic MUFC used against us successfully (bunker and run), but you don't have Opara in the back and Quintero up front. With Alessandrini I think it could have been a much more effective. What I don't understand is not using Boateng earlier in the game (like to start, when you needed to counter more quickly). In this last game (LA vs SJ) I think all of our long shots were a bit of rope a dope to pull your defense up a bit and open some space. When properly lulled, or when the defenders were tired, we exploited the wings and then back into the middle. I'm not sure you could have man marked us the whole game based on what I saw (there just wasn't a lot of effort in the back). It will be interesting to see how GBS molds the team going forward.
Good thoughts all around. Bobby Warshaw's write-up on SJ's man-marking is worth revisiting. https://www.mlssoccer.com/post/2019...should-we-take-improving-san-jose-earthquakes One of the chief problems of this team is we can't meaningfully adjust as long as we have Zlatan.
From watching us play it looks like GBS is concerned about defense and has told the team to get goal side after a turnover. The players followed instructions and did that - but like the goal above illustrated our spacing was such that it was simple to pass through us anyway. One defensive area that was concerning me throughout the SJ game was the absolutely critical central area just a few yards in front of the back line. That's where the most dangerous attacks and shots come from. Steres and Gonzalez both tend to stay home, playing back and side by side (Polenta is a bit more adventuresome.) And Corona and Favio often stay more wide and further up. Neither are consistent at tracking runners into this area. The result is that often JDS is alone in this area: -----------------------------------------Bingham--------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------Steres-------Gonzalez----------------------------------- -------Feltscher----------------------------------------------------------------Skkjjk------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------JDS-------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------E. Alvarez------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------Favio--------------------------- -------------------------------------Corona----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------Antuna------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------Ibra--------------------------------------------------- Our opponents will start with one player keeping JDS busy, maybe pulling him wide a bit: -----------------------------------------Bingham--------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------Steres-------Gonzalez----------------------------------- -------Feltscher---------------------------X1------------------------------------------------ --X2---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------Skjjjk----------- -------------------------------------JDS-----------------------------------------------------X3 --------------------------------X4----------------------------------------------------------------- ------E. Alvarez------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------Favio----------X6-------------- -----------------------------------Corona-----------------X5---------------------------------- ------------------------X7---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---X8-----------------------------------------------------------------Antuna------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------Ibra--------------------------------------------------- That leaves big dangerous spaces for runners to come in and overload this area: -----------------------------------------Bingham--------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----------------------------------Steres---X1--Gonzalez------------------------------X3 X2----Feltscher---------------------------------------------------------------Skkjjk------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------X5-------------------------------------- -------------------------------------JDS-------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------X4-----------------------------------Favio------X6----------- ------E. Alvarez------------------------------------------------------------------------------- X8-----------------------------------------Corona-------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------X7------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------Antuna------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------Ibra--------------------------------------------------- So in the above contrived scenario X5 enters the area unmarked. But it could be X2 dribbling and cutting back to the center or someone else. Anyway the point is that Feltscher, Skjookk and Efrain all tend to stay wide and none are any help in the middle. Making it worse is the fact that neither Favio or Corona are great about tracking back to help clog things up. Instead we end up with open spaces all across the field in front of our back line. What is the answer? Simple, when we lose the ball we need drop back and clog the central areas first. Don't stay so spread out on defense. Here is how a compact, hard to penetrate defense should look: -----------------------------------------Bingham--------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------Steres-X1----------------------------Slkllk-----------X3 X2----Feltscher---------------------------------------Gonzalez---------------------------- ----------------------------------------JDS------------------------------------------------------- ------------------E. Alvarez -------------------------Favio-----------X5--------------------- -------------------------------------Corona------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------X4-------------------------------Antuna--------X6------------ --------X8----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------Ibra------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------X7-------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Make our opponents have to fight through a congested midfield, not waltz through a wide open one!
Interesting. When I recommended man-marking for us it was as an alternative to the terrible zone system we are currently playing. In general I think a zonal approach to defense is fine, but it has to be compact and there are man-marking elements in it. It also has to apply pressure to the ball handler, at least when they venture into our final defensive third of the field. We aren't doing that at all.
I disagree with the idea that we can't adjust with Zlatan. It's true that playing Ibra pretty much rules out the pressing-all-over-the-field approach. But teams can also have tough compact defenses without the high press aspect.
This might sound like a strange analogy, but the way we play defense reminds me of my high school football days in that when we were installing offensive plays, the coaches would have our defense play what they called "token man" or "crappy zone" defense wherein they would simply play their positions with limited intensity and movement so we could learn our assignments without the defense constantly breaking up the plays and short-circuiting the learning process. On the occasions when we do try to run some version of the high press, we look disjointed and late getting into good positions. I also rarely see anyone pressing the ball in open play. Reiterating what Skydog pointed out, I mean you obviously want to get guys behind the ball, but if players off the ball are just going to mark open space and players nearest the ball just stand/jog around 5-10 yards from the ball without putting any pressure on the ball, then we're going to keep getting sliced and diced. Some of the problem seems to be guys not being on the same page, but I also think a goodly chunk of the problem comes down to a lack of defensive intensity and effort from certain players. Regardless, it's really frustrating to watch.
I agree. And my post wasn't a counter-point to man-marking, just some observation of what SJ is doing. I do think we have problems defending in transition (mostly because we play without a true stay-home 6) but SJ's gameplan exacerbated those problems everywhere in midfield. We just didn't know how to respond. Well, true. Our defensive shape should / could be better. But I mean offensively, we're one-dimensional until we get another scoring threat. Teams have figured out that if they can isolate Zlatan from service, we're pretty impotent.
Regarding one dimensional offense - I remember at first being so happy when I heard we got Gio off the books, then finding out the cost (supposedly) was losing Kamara and realizing that meant we only had 37yo Ibra and oft injured Alessandrini as goal scorers. That scared me at the time and it didn't help that GBS and DTK didn't seem as concerned about it as I thought they should be. And lo and behold their next big signing was a cb rather than a desperately needed 2nd forward.
Posting here because this is the closest we have to a pure tactics thread. From a Doyle article after the Atlanta game: “Against Galaxy, there is a lot of possibility in transition and we did and we have to play those balls forward as quick as possible because we have like Pity and Josef, especially Pity between the lines of course and Barco a little bit higher up so we could find those guys," is how De Boer put it, and I mean... yeah. The Galaxy sure do allow that (they've lost three of their past four because teams are murdering them in transition)... You know your team has a problem when opposing coaches are openly talking to the media about it. It's discouraging that despite this being a major and obvious weakness for several games now GBS still has made no discernible tactical adjustments to fix it.
I'm nowhere near as brilliant at soccer as you and most of the BS posters, but it really seems to me that the problems come down to: 1. We have to work really hard to score goals. We have great possession but very little dangerous possession. And we don't move up the field quickly - lots of horizontal passes. That means that not only does the other team have time to get their defense set, but that we move a lot of players up the field in doing so. It seems that usually when we have a dangerous chance we have 7 or 8 players in our offensive third of the field. That means when we don't score or turn the ball over - we don't have the numbers back to stop a dangerous counter. Teams that are good and quick on offense are killing us on this one part of the game. 2. GBS doesn't therefore play defense and sit back like we should. So other teams know they can wait until we commit forward and then counter. And it kills us over and over again. On the road we should be way more conservative and keep numbers behind the ball. Yes, it's Bruce-ball, but in MLS with the parity in the league it's how you get points. 3. That's why we only win when we score first* and usually lose by multiple goals when we give up the first goal (and never come back and get any ties). If we score first, that prevents the other teams from playing that "pack it in then counter" game that we seem to have no answer for. *I think the reason we beat LAFC despite giving up the first goal, other than some individual brilliance, is that when they scored so early, LAFC didn't play that game plan the other teams have used successfully against us and instead tried to surge forward and go in for the kill - they wanted to embarrass us in our house- rather than sitting back and then breaking on the counter when we had all our players up the field, they kept coming at us and exposing themselves for the same sort of counter-attack. But teams with discipline and strong offensive players know exactly how to handle us and it works as long as we don't score first.
[my responses in blue and adding little, mostly repeating what TrickHog said. My form of venting.] TrickHog said: I'm nowhere near as brilliant at soccer as you and most of the BS posters, but it really seems to me that the problems come down to: 1. We have to work really hard to score goals. We have great possession but very little dangerous possession. And we don't move up the field quickly - lots of horizontal passes. That means that not only does the other team have time to get their defense set, but that we move a lot of players up the field in doing so. It seems that usually when we have a dangerous chance we have 7 or 8 players in our offensive third of the field. That means when we don't score or turn the ball over - we don't have the numbers back to stop a dangerous counter. Teams that are good and quick on offense are killing us on this one part of the game. Yes on all of this. We sometimes try to launch fast breaks with direct over the top balls but those passes aren't a good fit for our personnel . At least those long balls usually end up just being turnovers. Much more fatal is what you are talking about -build up play that starts out well but turn into disasters when our mids and ob's all push up at the same time rather than coordinating their runs. Our team just seems unaware of basic positioning principles. When an outside back joins the attack then his teammates need to shift and/or drop back to re-balance the team and provide cover for the space just vacated. The whole team needs to look like a bunch of triangles moving all over the field, shifting and reforming, but never getting caught in flat lines with open gaps in between. But Feltscher pays no attention to team shape and just runs forward whenever he feels like it. Skjoik likes to avoid responsibility and hang out in between where he helps neither the offense nor the defense. And somehow our midfield seems to be less than the sum of their parts. Everyone is doing their own thing and not working together as a unit. 2. GBS doesn't therefore play defense and sit back like we should. So other teams know they can wait until we commit forward and then counter. And it kills us over and over again. On the road we should be way more conservative and keep numbers behind the ball. Yes, it's Bruce-ball, but in MLS with the parity in the league it's how you get points. He came with a rumored reputation for offense first and defense as an afterthought. Unfortunately he's living up to it. 3. That's why we only win when we score first* and usually lose by multiple goals when we give up the first goal (and never come back and get any ties). If we score first, that prevents the other teams from playing that "pack it in then counter" game that we seem to have no answer for. *I think the reason we beat LAFC despite giving up the first goal, other than some individual brilliance, is that when they scored so early, LAFC didn't play that game plan the other teams have used successfully agains us and instead tried to surge forward and go in for the kill - they wanted to embarrass us in our house- rather than sitting back and then breaking on the counter when we had all our players up the field, they kept coming at us and exposing themselves for the same sort of counter-attack. But teams with discipline and strong offensive players know exactly how to handle us and it works as long as we don't score first. I also think we got a bit fortunate against LAFC. There were several times in the second half when they got quick, easy numbers-up counters against us but then blew their opportunities with unforced errors - uncharacteristically bad passing and off-target Hail Mary shooting. tldr vers: I really have nothing new to say. Just venting because I'm frustrated that we seem to make the same mistakes over and over.
Time for revisiting this one. John E Rojas with some nice tape on the Galaxy's poor shape, movement and decision-making. You see how easily things fall apart on the first goal -- it's not really spectacular craft from Seattle, just basic awareness. But after giving up the ball, no one really makes a move to mark the man -- everyone just kind of slowly jogs back to starting positions. I mean, ultimately this is on Schelotto. But some of this is basic soccer. Too many touches to settle the ball. Not making the obvious (albeit more challenging) pass to the open man through the lines.
It's sad that the same problems from last year are occurring again this year. This speaks to a true coaching failure.
I finally watched it without sound. This video shows so clearly just how poorly our team sees the field. Our players either dribble with their head down or pick it up enough to see only the 10-15 yards right in front of them. There is no reading of the entire field, no sense of where their own teammates are, no sense of where the opponents weaknesses are. And there is no anticipation of what they will do when they get the ball except dribble around or back pass. In this clip many, many times we had one, two or three easy attacking passing options but we simply didn't look for them. Often the 100% proper play was switching the ball to the open side of the field but we just kept passing right back into the well defended, crowded side of the field like U-10's. I'm a JDS fan but in this clip he had several opportunities to switch fields or make an attacking pass but he just seemed unaware and instead played like pass-back Pete. He should go back and watch tapes of Juninho who would repeatedly receive the ball from one side and quickly spin and launch an attack with a nice 30 yard ball to the opposite side of the field. JDS has the skill to do this - his passing accuracy is still great - but he's got to be more creative. And none of this even gets into the defensive breakdowns. Most of those were on our back line who seemed to forget that that some of the Sounders are fast. No excuse for letting them get behind you so easily. Of course it doesn't help that a breakaway is essentially a goal with Bingham back there. As MP9 says this is on both GBS and the players. On GBS because he should be training them and insisting they get their heads up, quit dribbling and passing into crowds, switch fields more often, be more aggressive and creative with attacking passes, know where their teammates are at all times and anticipate the play better. And on the players because if you are a pro you should know this stuff already. Sheesh - what a dumpster fire. We are decidedly less than the sum of our parts.