T/F? Are TnT the best team in the Caribbean

Discussion in 'Caribbean' started by FlashEP, Jul 16, 2006.

  1. FlashEP

    FlashEP New Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Waltham, MA
    I'm going to say false, the soca warriors might have qualified and played in the World Cup but they didn't meet any strong caribbean competition during qualifications. They've lost each of their last meetings with Jamaica, Cuba, and Haiti. I can't wait for the next Digicel Cup (Caribbean qualifying tournament for the Gold Cup)
     
  2. midknight

    midknight New Member

    Sep 5, 2005
    Paris
    I don't think that our world cup qualification necessarily proves that we're the best team in the Caribbean, but you can hardly use our games against Haiti Cuba and Jamaica as justification for saying that we're not. those games were played a month before our 5-1 hiding to Guatemala, so you could use the same rationale to suggest that guatemala are better than us as well.

    The fact of the matter is those games were done by a different coach who used mostly different players and another style and game system.

    Here are the rosters for those games (the world cup players who actually played are in bold)

    Shaka Hislop, Derek King, Marvin Andrews, Brent Sancho, Anton Pierre, Kenwyne Jones Devon Leacock, Densill Theobald, Anthony Rougier, Angus Eve, Leslie Fitzpatrick David Atiba Charles, Dwight Yorke, Stern John Nigel Pierre, Scott Sealy Cornell Glen, Duarance Williams, Marlon Rojas, Jose Luis Seabra, Keyeno Thomas, David Nakhid, Cyd Gray Nigel Pierre, Lyndon Andrews, Conrad Smith.

    You have only 10 of the 23 on the world cup team in there. Noticeably missing are Birchall, Spann, Lawrence, Avery John, Latapy, Colin Samuel and Aurthis Whitley

    The problem with caribbean cup matches is that very few of the bigger teams (read TNT and Jamaica) take them seriously. This might change since it has becomes a point of entry into the Gold Cup, but in the past Trinidad has had lots of problems getting its foreign based players to take part (which hasn't stopped us from winning it like 9 times out of 13) mainly because it tends not to be on fifa dates and the old club vs country row crops up
     
  3. FlashEP

    FlashEP New Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Waltham, MA
    Yeah well, it would be unfair to say the same thats going on w/ Jamaican, Haitian, and Cuban players competing for other clubs either in Europe or the MLS. And as long as your bringing it up granted TnT have a good history at the caribbean cups but the soca warriors have basically been playin with an old squad (oldest team at the world cup) so they're superstars have or about to retire from international play. That and the fact that their u-21 side failed to even qualify for this year's CAC games after being eliminated in an all caribbean qualifying group that they were also hosting. so before you start mentioning the soca warriors as 1 of the bigger teams in the caribbean, the point is that they were a bigger team so make sure u check your notes next time.
     
  4. midknight

    midknight New Member

    Sep 5, 2005
    Paris
    I had a bit of difficulty following your response, but i'll try anyway.
    I wasn't trying to say that only TNT have had players missing for the caribbean cups - just that the tournament is usually highly diluted from what obtains in caribbean world cup qualifying competition and is thus rarely a judge of the actual strength of caribbean teams.

    The U21 team played crap and i'll be the first to admit it having seen the game against Haiti live. That said that team didn't lose because of talent, but because of preparation. I'm confident of the up and comers but also of the remaining warriors' ability to build on their world cup showing

    I'll put this simply. Beenhakker and the post Beenhakker period corresponds to a period of hope for TNT football. We'll see what comes of it.
     
  5. Warlord

    Warlord New Member

    Jun 8, 2005
    District of Columbia
    What team then is the best team in the Carribean?:rolleyes:

    Maybe this topic should be changed to "Which nation in the Caribbean has been the most successful.:p
     
  6. FlashEP

    FlashEP New Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Waltham, MA
    Well i'm a Haitian fan, but i would have to say it's without a doubt Jamaica. They've made 4 straight appearances at the Gold Cup and won the Digicel Cup in 2005. They've even had a good record against non-Caribbean opponents, beating Guatemala 3 straight times. So as of the last 10 years, the reggae boys have been the Caribbean kings.
     
  7. Warlord

    Warlord New Member

    Jun 8, 2005
    District of Columbia
    We'll I'm Jamaican and our team isn't the number 1 team in the Caribbean right now. If you compare our success to Trinidad's you will see that Trinidad & Tobago have won far more Caribbean tournaments than we have, gotten to Gold Cups alot, and of late they have performed much better in international games. Although we've beaten them on a regular basis, they've raised the bar for Caribbean teams.

    I won't say that T&T is the best team in the Carribbean but they're much better than you give them credit for.
     
  8. chec

    chec Member

    Feb 9, 2005
    Toronto
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Trinidad and Tobago
    I don't know what FlashEP has against T&T but I think that JAM and T&T are The best right now. But look out for Haiti and Cuba.
     
  9. Latin Pride

    Latin Pride Member

    Aug 1, 2004
    In your house
    Club:
    Olimpia Asuncion
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Historically its Jamaica

    Currently its T&T

    I would say at the moment in order it would be....

    1.T&T
    2.Jamaica
    3.Cuba
    4.Haiti
     
  10. chec

    chec Member

    Feb 9, 2005
    Toronto
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Trinidad and Tobago

    You need to look up your caribbean soccer history. T&T has dominated the caribbean since the 60's with Haiti briefly taking over in the early 70's, and Jam from the mid 90's up too the last hex. Now the soca warriors have regained their crown. Now it is up to Jam, Haiti, and Cuba to try to take it away.
     
  11. FlashEP

    FlashEP New Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Waltham, MA
    I don't have anything against T&T, I was rooting for them during all of their world cup matches. It's jus I really don't believe they're as good as they get credit for. They had about 5 starters on their squad that had retired from international play or were about to retire including captain Dwight York. I still think they are without a doubt a top team in the Caribbean but they're not the top team. Obviously T&T has a better record than Jamaica against non-North American opponents but they're world cup qualifying groups and opponents were mostly sub par until they reached the final round.


    Jamaica
    T&T
    Cuba
    Haiti
     
  12. Warlord

    Warlord New Member

    Jun 8, 2005
    District of Columbia

    As much as I would want Jamaica to be up there, we simply aren't good enough and haven't been for sometime now. Trinidad & Tobago is the best team in the Caribbean. Soca Warriors have proven that over the last year or so. How could you dispel 9 Caribbean Cups to Jamaica's 4 since 1991:rolleyes:
     
  13. FlashEP

    FlashEP New Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Waltham, MA
    Easy.....just look at the Digicel Cup last year in the final round of 4 teams (Jamaica, TnT, Barbados host, and Cuba). TnT lost to both Jamaica and Cuba before narrowly defeating Barbados (3:2) to take the third and final spot to qualify for Gold Cup 2005. It surprised me how they played in the final round matches because they never looked comfortable.
     
  14. Warlord

    Warlord New Member

    Jun 8, 2005
    District of Columbia
    Does that really matter? Did Jamaica, Barbados, Haiti play well enough to qualify for the WC? The answer is NO. We all sat back and watched while Trinidad played in the WC, so your analogy makes no sense whatsoever.

    Jamaica isn't good enough just yet and many other islands isn't on Trinidad's level at this point in time. They have the momentum and if they continue to build on that, they will be tough to beat when qualifying comes around.
     
  15. FlashEP

    FlashEP New Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Waltham, MA
    Are you kidding me? Trinidad & Tobago had a much easier road to the final round then all of those teams. Mexico was the only team they had played in stage 2 that was good enough to be there. TnT's preliminary road was through teams like Dominican Republic, St. Kitts & Nevis, and St. Vincent & Grenadines so a birth into the final round was basicly spoon fed to them. I congratulate the soca warriors on qualifying and playing at the World Cup but that has nothing to do with them being so called better than the other Caribbean teams as if no other teams matter anymore. They're a strong team but why overestimate?
     
  16. Warlord

    Warlord New Member

    Jun 8, 2005
    District of Columbia
    Again, your analogy makes no sense. I'm not looking at the last semifinal round only. You seem to forget in 2000, Trinidad drew Canada, Mexico and Panama in their semi-final group. It was predicted back then that Canada and Mexico would advance out of that group. If my memory serves me right, they won the group beating Mexico at home 1-0, Canada away 2-0. Panama 1-0 away, spanking the canadians 4-0 at home and the Panamanians 6-0 at home as well. The only loss came away in Mexico City. Trinidad won the group then to advance to the hex.

    This time around they played St Vincent and St Kitts, but if you watched those games they just BARELY beat them. That alone should tell you that while they didn't have to play Guate, CR USA in the semis the going was tough for them. Caribbean teams are not what they used to be. They are getting better, and the gap between the likes of Trinidad and Jamaica vs the smaller teams like St Kitts, StVincent Barbados, and Grenada is much, much smaller than you think.

    You obviously know squat about Caribbean football;) . I'm willing to bet that you've probably never been to any Shell Cup/Digicel games in your life:eek:
     
  17. FlashEP

    FlashEP New Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Waltham, MA
    Wow so you're using stats and scores of the TnT squad 6 years ago and you're calling my facts irrelevent. because it's funny how TnT's only loss (as you had put down) was a 7:0 beatdown in Mexico City so it's obvious that Mexico wasn't playing with their actual starting XI in Port-Of-Spain. I never doubt the abilities and potential of teams in the Caribbean, but my problem is their approach of getting Caribbean born players currently in European and American leagues back to playing with their international squads for regular friendlies and qualifiers. I read in a Oceanic Zone forum about how New Zealand and Solomon Islands wants a bid to the Gold Cup to play w/ teams like Jamaica, Cuba, TnT, and Haiti because to the Pacific and other parts of the world some of the Caribbean teams are looked upon as legendary for all that they have accomplished being island nations. But back on the subject, your right the Caribbean is much stronger than it had been but you forget that back in 2000 while they were beating Canada, Mexico, and Panama they also lost to St. Vincent & Grenadines at home, lost to Jamaica at home, and had a scoreless draw with Guyana so in the end it's you that doesn't know squat about this topic but it's alright, can't know everything i guess.
     
  18. midknight

    midknight New Member

    Sep 5, 2005
    Paris
    Can i cut in boys? ;)

    Its easy to pull out stats and use them for your own benefit.
    The fact of the matter is that TNT went into that "7-0 beatdown" already assured of qualifying with 2 games to spare. They had 12 points, their nearest rival (Mexico) had 9 and the other 2 teams in the group were both at 1 point each. Seeing that it makes no difference for the hex whether one finishes first or second in the group,, the TNT administration made the (imo somewhat doubtful) decision not to take the match at all seriously. Not only did they not call up the foreign based professionals, but they basically put up a scratch up side that jetted into Mexico City the day before the game. That's called suicide in any language.

    You can argue all you want about Mexico not having their first team in Port of Spain, but the fact rests that they were not able to win a match in Port of Spain during that cycle, not in the semifinal where they lost 1-0, nor the hex where they drew 1-1.

    TNT at their best were certainly out of their depth against CRC 02, Mexico and the US but the fact remains that just before that crucial home game against Jamaica, Dwight Yorke and Russell Latapy quit the team throwing the campaign into disarray.

    What I find questionable is your decision to disregard competetive match results and instead cite friendly results.What you're basically doing is throwing out a 12-1-1 result (27-9) goal difference in competetive matches spanning from coach Ian Porterfields first match in qualifying up until the end of the semifinal round and choosing to look at a 1-2-3 friendly record (8-7 gd)during this same time period.

    Incidentally you're also throwing out the 2001 caribbean cup, where TNT (without Yorke and Latapy) beat all of Barbados, Jamaica, Cuba and Haiti to win the tournament...

    But I agree with you on one thing. 2001's results aren't that important to judging the strength of the teams now. As a matter of fact they're just as irrelvant as the Digicell Cup results seeing the coach and players that composed the team at the time.

    When you bear in mind the fact that Jamaica was already eliminated from World Cup qualifying when they played the Digicell Tournament and that they were playing for a place in the Gold Cup, basically the only thing they had to look forward to before the World Cup, it is understandable the good performance they put up. More credit to them.
     
  19. Warlord

    Warlord New Member

    Jun 8, 2005
    District of Columbia

    You should review your facts. In the semi-final round in Port of Spain, Mexico lost with their FULL starting eleven;)

    The losses that you pointed out. Were there friendly's or were they in WCQ?

    I suspect friendlies which means that most first team players were probably missing, but i don't expect you to know that since you didn't post the scores in any of the supposed losses mentioned. Let me remind you once again that I was born in Jamaica and know more about the Jamaica and the Carribbean than you know. I don't read tha shite that uneducated ESPN and FOX reporters post on their site like you do:eek:

    Check your facts b4 opening your trap!
     
  20. FlashEP

    FlashEP New Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Waltham, MA
    What is it that you can't understand? Mexico is, was, and has always been the better team, simple as that. If we're still talking about the past let's head back to WCQ 1990 where TnT had their hearts broken by the US but the only reason they made it that far was the fact that Mexico was not allowed to take part in qualifications for the World Cup that year. Let's get back to the present, first of all Mexico did Trinidad & Tobago a favor, if they wanted to win the the final group ahead of the US then they would've put in some of their starting lineup in the Port Of Spain game so if that had happened the Guatemala would've finished with the fourth spot. With all due respect, i use what i know. I wasn't born in Haiti but what difference does it make if most players of the Caribbean teams' starting lineups play overseas. But since you know so much let's discuss Jamaica's recent flops against non-CONCACAF opponents. How come Jamaica has been getting dropped badly in all their non-Caribbean matches, including their matches over in England. Lost to Australia 0:5, Ghana 1:4, and then England 0:6, i mean since you were born in Jamaica and you claim that means something then you should have the answers so what's your synopsis on Jamaica's poor performances as of late. And don't try to use the draw with USA as any kinda of comfort, Haiti finished in a 1:1 draw with them in '04 (last time those two teams played) which was also on American soil. I'm going to keep my trap wide open because all i'm putting out are opinionated facts, so if you can't handle the heat go reply to another forum and save me the trouble of correcting you again on this one.
     
  21. Warlord

    Warlord New Member

    Jun 8, 2005
    District of Columbia

    Correct what. You've done nothing else but try to miimise the success of the soca warriors so that tells me that you are a HATER.:eek: The results they've had against carribbean opposition without several starters is quite impressive because after they slaughtered the Canadians at home, the following year they beat Haiti, Jamaica, and other teams to win the Digicel Cup. I guess you missed that one didn't you. You also forgot that they finished 3rd in the Gold Cup in 2000 too.

    I disagree with the comment that Trinidad and Tobago wouldn't have made it without Mexico being disqualified in 1990. That is hypothetical and you don't know that for a fact.

    Now the other point where you said Mexico did Trinidad a favor is utterly stupid. When did Mexico do that. Didn't Mexico use the same strong team a week before in the game against Guatemala? Mex won that game 5-2. Do you remember Fonseca scoring 4 goals against Guatemala then?

    That same team went to Trinidad and Tobago and scored first while it took a brace from Stern John to carry the Reds to the playoffs.

    Lemme give you a piece of recent history. Mexico full team or not has struggled to beat Trinidad & Tobago in recent years in WCQ. I could post recent head to head meetings that proves my point.

    Now on to Jamaica. We have a lot of problems not with talent, but with discipline and organisation within the team. The JFF hired Wendell Downswell who has done nothing with the team.

    In recent friendlies, we didn't have enough time to prepare for our opponents....namely England and Ghana. We had zero players in training and none were in any camp leading up to those 2 matches. The biggest problem right now is not skill...were loaded there......it's the fact that there's no structure in place for our team.

    Nevertheless, we'll still spank teams like Haiti regardless...just look at our most recent results against you morons;)
     
  22. FlashEP

    FlashEP New Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Waltham, MA
    I've never said anything that talks about TnT like they suck or anythin like that so your the hater. So you really think if Mexico was at WCQ 1990 that things wouldn't have changed, then you're a fool.

    And about the WCQ 2006, Mexico destroyed Guatemala but that was a home game so the team had to put on a show for the Mexican fans but you're wrong to say that the starting XI used in the Guatemala game was the same squad that started in Port of Spain. I watched that game live, i was rooting for the soca warriors all the way, they had the momentum and they commanded the game.....but that wasn't Mexico.

    Go ahead, post all the meetings and stats you want. let's just see what happens at the next Gold Cup, that is if Trinidad & Tobago makes it there because it's beginning to get alot more difficult to qualify through the Digicel Cup. I have no doubt in my mind that a Caribbean team will win the Gold Cup, the question is how long will it take.

    If teams like Mexico, USA, and Canada had a choice of who to play between Jamaica and Haiti the answer would be simple, they would all play Jamaica. For Haiti it doesn't matter who they play, fifa.com called them "one the most dangerous and unpredictable teams" in CONCACAF, they can beat any team at any time and they're not afraid to play anywhere. Jamaica, on the other hand, would play well against Central American and Caribbean teams but when it comes to playing with the larger known teams they play very timid. In other words they play like they know their role and they back down when it's time to step up. The only game Haiti was crushed against was when they played Brazil but in that game the samba kings played with Ronaldinho, ronaldo, roberto carlos and other big names while most of Haiti's international players were still in Europe.

    Yeah you sure talk alot for Jamaica, but if we're talking about head to head accomplishments..... then qualifying for the World Cup '98 is all Jamaica has. Haiti has 2 continental titles (1957, 1973). Two of Haiti's league teams have went on to hold up the continental champions cups, Racing in 1963 and then Violette in 1984. And to top that Haiti was affiliated with FIFA in 1933, nearly 30 years before Jamaica was. In fact, no Caribbean team besides maybe Cuba has those kind of pedigrees and the reggae boys aren't even close. You can say whatever about Jamaica spanking Haiti but they can only wish they had the Haitians unbeatable swagger so check yourself next time. So whenever you talk about how much Jamaica or TnT are dominating, just remember who opened the door.
     
  23. Warlord

    Warlord New Member

    Jun 8, 2005
    District of Columbia

    I've got one thing to say to you Haiti is NOTHING to brag about. And they didn't open no doors for any Caribbean team. You are a deluded individual. What has Haiti done since going to the WC?:eek:

    You always get dumped out EVERYTIME and you have NO Caribbean Cups and no bragging rights against either Jamaica or Trinidad & Tobago. The last time you went to the WC Trinidad and Tobago got ROBBED after they scored FOUR disallowed goals against you morons in 1973/74.

    Trinidad should've been in the WC then as they were clearly better than every team during that final round. Remember they hammered Mexico 4-0. and well you went via a cheating referee who was later banned from ever officiating another match in his life!
     
  24. FlashEP

    FlashEP New Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Waltham, MA
    So how can you say Haiti didn't open any doors for Caribbean teams, you're a straight up hater. i mean at least i acknowledged that Jamaica's been doin alright as of late and their history might be bleek but they went to the world cup and that's what matters, but to put that stuff down is mad ignorant. "What has Haiti done since going to the world cup?" i did put down in the last message that Violette won the continental champions cup (aka best club team in all of North America) in 1984.

    I don't care what Haiti's all time record against Jamaica and Trinidad & Tobago is. All that matters is Haiti have the continental trophies and the cups.....and they don't. but hey they can keep scraping over the Caribbean Cups if it makes them feel better.

    I don't know exactly what happened during that controversial game so i'm not going to put down anything about it, however I know Haiti went to World Cup '74 and that's it. That was 32 years ago, c'mon now there's no point of saying "should've, could've, would've". what's done is done. Haiti almost qualified for Argentina '78 but finished second in the standings behind Mexico....where was Trinidad & Tobago then? better question....where was Jamaica through all of this?

    We can keep debating about this Haiti-Jamaica thing for days (and i will win), but when are we going to get back to the topic? I admit you know your facts, that's obvious but know that i'm not having this arguement because your Jamaican which is why i dont put down the whole "us" and "you people" kinda thing, i just simply put the country's names. so if your ready to squash it.....squash it and if not.......bring it on.
     
  25. Trin

    Trin Member

    Sep 6, 2005
    pa
    Excuse me. Mr. FlashEP aka psuedo Hatian. Haiti did win that game in 1974 by underhanded means. Sweeping that FACT under the rug doesnt change anything. I never had anything aginst Hatians until I read some of the ridiculous things I've read here, granted warlord may have pushed u to say them. Usually i leave Haiti be cause y'all need more help than bashing, but anyways I digress. You go on and on about Haiti winnning contiental trophies but if you had done a little research yourself guess who's also won Continental Cup Trophies? That's right T&T, in 1966 and in 1985 (one year after Violette, strange u didn't know who took your crown), both times with Defense Force.

    Another thing, that continental title you brag about in 73, guess what game gave you that title? Thats right the same tiefin, 4 goal dissalowing, refree banned for life game that you "won" against Trinidad and Tobago to send you to the world cup. So there we are, in one breath yuh saying we should forget about coulda shoulda woulda and in the next yuh waving that in my face as proof

    So check yuhself. Ah gone.
     

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