Super Y - pros and cons

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by SueB, Feb 12, 2003.

  1. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Super-Y is a very interesting concept. In general, I think the league is a very good idea. I'm not sure that it's actually a developmental model that people want it to be though. IMO, there's no more or less politics involved in getting a kid on a Y-League team.

    There are still going to be tryouts because it's too expensive for a Y-League team to scout. It's also expensive. There's a lot of travel involved and coaches cost money. The teams are huge, yes, but a team may play tow or three games a weekend. Some players may play with the 15s, 16s, and 17s on the same day.

    The Super-Y clubs that I am familiar with still compete in NJYS competitions and leagues. They have to in order to compete in state cups and regionals. Many clubs play in a modified traditional league under one of the NJ youth leagues, they may play in MAPS which is another modified elite "league", the region 1 director's league, and state cup competitions. For the ODP players, there's that level too in addition to HS ball. The players are getting plenty of games and year round instruction, but there are so many disparate competitions to involve the players. Almost all of these competitions overlap at some point during the year too.

    The spring here is nuts. Super-Y, state cup, local leagues, and the region 1 league all run at the same time. If this stuff can spread out over the year a little more, it might be better for everyone, and I also think the kids need a break at some point during the summer to recover.
     
  2. The Wanderer

    The Wanderer New Member

    Sep 3, 1999
    We need the kids to be playing/practicing/training at least 10 months out of the year, 5-6 days a week if possible.
     
  3. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Playing Time

    Correct ... trouble is, the proliferation of leagues doesn't really solve this. I mean, let's get real, the answer isn't to be on 3 teams, attending 5 practices per week, and spending every weekend travelling and juggling teams.

    Long term, the answer is to build a soccer culture that, if not as strong as Argentina's and Brazil's, is at least strong enough to support kids who want to play the sport frequently & casually. Say, as the U.S. already does with baseball and basketball.

    Shorter term, the best answer is probably something like Colorado Rush's school setup, where for a modest cost soccer-oriented kids can play the game every day with other soccer-oriented kids. Not a bunch of high-pressure practices and fancy league games, but rather building up a habit of playing with the ball, day in and day out.
     
  4. GersMan

    GersMan Member

    May 11, 2000
    Indianapolis
    ultimately teams have to decide on one league or another,and the top clubs are moving toward doing that. The Y-league will go to a 26-30 game schedule in 2004, running (depending on region) from January to November). For this to happen, clubs will need to choose it and the US Club Soccer National Cup competition over the Snickers State, Regional National Cups. Talking about that was kind of taboo before, but the soccer people at the big clubs are now openly discussing it. I believe at least one California club may have already taken the plunge.
     
  5. SueB

    SueB New Member

    Mar 23, 1999
    Waterbury, VT
    From the list of Super Y clubs that I've seen for this year, there are still two humongous holes - Southern California and Texas - that are apparently still wed to USYSA. And next year will force a lot of clubs to make choices when Super Y moves to a summer/fall season. Some mid-level clubs might not want to force their players to choose between club and H.S. Of course, the Super Y might welcome this sort of attrition to filter out the riff-raff, so to speak.
     
  6. The Wanderer

    The Wanderer New Member

    Sep 3, 1999
    A summer schedule is definitely needed so that the kids can learn how to play in those conditions---kick and chase and run around ain't going to work in July in most places.

    JohnR, I agree with you. Kids should not have to shuffle back and forth between teams just to get the type of training that they need/want. And I really hate the expense of all this---we need a "Miracle on grass" to make the game more popular so that all of this intra and inter state traveling can be eliminated. Get the dads so educated about the game so the coaching cost can be eliminated.

    Texas has a potentially huge player pool, if only someone within USYSA or whoever could promote the game to half of the Hispanic population. Each major city could have a gargantuan local league(including suburb teams) if they could just get them more involved. Unfortunately they seem more interested in the NBA, which is totally strange given the proliferation of average heights within their ethnic group.
     
  7. GersMan

    GersMan Member

    May 11, 2000
    Indianapolis
    Wasn't Miracle On Grass the name of a Vanilla Fudge LP? Or was it Velvet Underground?

    Kidding aside, I agree with the spirit of your post, but I don't think elminating the interstate travel is the main issue. To teh degree we are able to identify top talent (a fluid process, not a once-for-all event), that talent should be shepherded into competition with other top talent. I think that's the value of a national league vs. local club powers playing a few tournaments now and then. Our nation being the size that it is, this will involve talent.

    Now I guess part of what you're saying is that if we became a true soccer nation. you wouldn'thave to go so far to find top talent and to that degree, I agree. Long way off I'm afraid.
     
  8. The Wanderer

    The Wanderer New Member

    Sep 3, 1999
    Only a 'Miracle on grass' away my friend. :)
     
  9. Bill Archer

    Bill Archer BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 19, 2002
    Washington, NC
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm sure SueB will delete this as soon as she sees it, so read fast. Some people just can't stand it when somebody disagrees with them.

    SuperY league was a good idea (albeit basically a money-making project of Frank marcos) that has been so grossly oversold that it is quickly becoming a cancer on the body of US Soccer.

    Kids and their parents are being told, regularly and consistently, by virtually everybody connected with it, that SUperY is like Single A baseball: the first step on the road to MLS. They even provide a helpful pyramid drawing showing how SuperY is the basis for all upper level soccer in AMerica.

    What they don't say is that, to borrow a current phrase popular among the liberals, there is no "direct line" from Super Y through PDL to MLS, and saying it don't make it so.

    What it DOES do is allow the coaches to gouge the hell out of parents by feeding them delusions and lies.

    Nobody ever bothers to explain that, in reality, there are about 200 MLS jobs available for AMericans, and to be honest the odds of hitting the lottery are better than the odds of making it to MLS if you're not already in Bradenton.

    And NOW the coaches are quite openly telling the parents of prospective players that the ONLY way to ODP is through them; that THEIR recommendation is all that will get them to the promised land. It's a complete lie.

    But people want to believe, and Super Y sells a lie to dreamers.

    And the damage it's doing to the club structure and USYSA is a disaster.
     
  10. Viking64

    Viking64 Member

    Feb 11, 1999
    Tarheel State
    Except...are Super Y league coaches actually coaching the kids every day? And more importantly, does a Super Y league coach earn his check from a professional team, that has appointed him to develop players for them?

    I don't have a problem with anyone's league. But there is a vast difference between a coach who's paid to coach kids to win, and a coach who's continued employment depends on how many kids he has trained, that eventually play for a Division I or II pro team.

    Is Super Y a quasi-professional league for young players, or is it a developmental institution for the A-League and MLS?
     
  11. Preston North End

    Feb 17, 2000
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Cal-South doesn't need the Super Y-League. It's not that the Clubs in Cal-South are overly thrilled with USYS/CYSA-S, it's that there is a very competitive league structure in Southern California.

    In the fall it has the Coast Soccer League at five levels...

    1. Premier: U16, U17, U19

    2. Gold: U9 - U19

    3. Silver Elite North: U9-U19
    3. Silver Elite South: U9-U19
    3. Silver Elite West: U9-U19

    4. Silver North: U9-U19
    4. Silver South: U9-U19
    4. Silver East: U9-U19
    4. Silver West: U9-U19
    4. Silver Central: U9-U19
    4. Silver Delta: U9-U19

    5. Bronze North: U9-U19
    5. Bronze South: U9-U19
    5. Bronze East: U9-U19
    5. Bronze West: U9-U19
    5. Bronze Central: U9-U19
    5. Bronze Delta: U9-U19
    5. Bronze Alpha: U9-U19
    5. Bronze Beta: U9-U19

    The Premier and Gold divisions have 8-14 teams in each age bracket.

    The Silver Elite is hit or miss on having teams in all of the respective "regions" and age brackets. The same applies for the Silver and Bronze divisions.

    Promotion (and relegation) from one level to the next is used. If you win - as an U16 side - the Gold U16 bracket you can apply for promotion to the Premier U17 bracket the following year.

    Winning tournaments - such as the Surf Cup - helps with your application as well. The stronger the tournament, the better off you are.

    There is no need to play or join US Club Soccer or the USL Super Y-League. Maybe they might join a USCS/SYL spring season (MAR-JUL), but that would be it.

    There is also a decent league in San Diego called the Presidio Soccer League.
     
  12. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Super Y, Southern California

    Preston -

    Makes perfect sense.

    Super Y is set up to let the best clubs from 4 or 5 states compete -- maybe 2 clubs in each state, so 8 to 10 "elite" clubs.

    Due to size, weather, and Latino participation, SoCal alone is as good as 4 or 5 states, if not more. So, de facto, the top bracket in SoCal is a Super Y league -- and probably the best one, at that.

    The rest of us are jealous.
     
  13. Preston North End

    Feb 17, 2000
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Super Y, Southern California

    Someone else posted that the SYL is looking at having, or wants to have, different levels/divisions. The CSL is pretty much what the SYL is looking to do.

    You have a Premier League and then - if possible - a First Division, then a level/division similar to Serie C in Italy.

    Saying Cal South might be as good as 4 or 5 States could be pushing it a little. It's not like they've been sweeping - on the boys side - the USYS Club Championships year in and year out.

    I think the CSL Premier League would be one of the stronger brackets if moved to the SYL. There might even be enough clubs to make two groups with 8-12 clubs each.

    Maybe as good as 2 or 3 would be better. 4 would definitely be pushing it.

    However, I also wouldn't argue that top-to-bottom it was the best. Though it could very well be.

    It would be the best out west.

    Here are my top 10 (overall top-to-bottom) Clubs in So Cal...

    Arsenal FC (Alta Loma)
    Celtic (Upland)
    FC Barcelona (Pasadena)
    Hotspurs USA (El Cajon/San Diego)
    ISC Strikers (Irvine)
    Nomads (La Jolla/San Diego)
    Pateadores (Mission Viejo)
    San Diego Surf
    So Cal United (Agoura)
    West Valley Samba (Woodland Hills)
     
  14. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    SoCal Strength

    Preston -

    Far be it from me to overpraise those detested Californians ... however, for boys -

    2002 Nationals

    U14 Nomads 1st
    U15 Midwest --

    U15 SoCal --
    U15 Midwest --

    U16 SoCal --
    U16 Midwest --

    U17 Irvine Strikers 1st
    U17 Chicago Magic 2nd

    U18 SoCal --
    U18 Midwest --

    U19 Cal South Blast 2nd
    U19 Midwest --

    Dallas Cup 2002

    U12 Bracket

    Socal --
    Midwest --

    U14 Bracket

    Nomads (SoCal) Quarterfinals
    Magic (Midwest) Quarterfinals

    U16 Bracket

    South Bay (SoCal) Quarterfinals
    Hotspurs (SoCal) Semifinals

    U17 Bracket

    West Valley (SoCal) Champions
    Surf (SoCal) Semifinals

    U19 Bracket

    Wolfpack (SoCal) Finals
    Slammers (SoCal) Quarterfinals

    U19 Supergroup

    Sockers (Midwest) Quarterfinals
    Irvine (SoCal) Semifinals


    That makes 11 playoff appearances in Snickers Nationals and Dallas Cup for SoCal, as compared with 3 for Midwest.

    Thirteen states in the Midwest, and in 2002 SoCal boys were better than all 13 of 'em put together.

    Dang it.
     
  15. Preston North End

    Feb 17, 2000
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: SoCal Strength

    The ODP Boys have won 3 of the 6 ODP Championships, but Cal South takes the competition much more serious than others. At least they have in the past.

    We'll see what happens over the weekend. Someone on this board told me they were the State Association that pushed to have this competition established.

    Up until last year, Cal South hadn't won a USYS National Championship since 1999.

    In the last 6 years they've only won 4 total (2 in 2002). I use "only" loosely because 16 State Associations (SA) have won at least 1, with Eastern Penn winning 5. IIRC, FC Delco has most, if not all of those. Five other "SA's" have won 2. So winning 4 is significant.

    You alluded to Cal South being equalivant to 4-5 "SA's" in talent/strength. I still disagree or maybe I'm just trying not to overhype the area. But, Cal South pulls from a population base of 20 million people. Other "SA's" pull from, at most, 10 million.

    Cal South should be winning MORE titles, both at the ODP and Club levels. The region is equalivant in size to 4 "SA's", but not necessarily in talent/strength.

    Los Angeles, Orange, and San Diego counties have 15 million people.

    San Diego (and Imperial, which only has 143k people) county has the most registerd players with 17,795. This is where Steve Cherundolo came from.

    Orange County has the most - at 12,000 - for one county, though if you take out Imperial county, San Diego might have more. Joe-Max Moore was developed in Orange County.

    San Bernardino and Riverside combined have more than O.C. with 12,430. Can you say Landon Donovan?

    Los Angeles county only has 9,000 registered players. Eddie Lewis and Ante Razov are from LA County, though I think both played for a Club in OC.

    You wonder why Nomads are the best club team in Cal South. They're located in San Diego.

    ISC Strikers have been getting stronger and may have caught Nomads. They're located in Orange County. I'm am in no way associated with ISC Strikers. That I live "down the street" from them is cool, however. I think they will soon surpass Nomads as the "King" of Cal South. In the next couple of years they might even reach the level of FC Delco.

    The last paragraph is my opinion and could be easily changed, so don't take it as gospel. There are other Clubs in Cal South that are good and some, like So Cal United that are gaining ground on the giants.

    Not to bring up a dead horse...the 2002 success of Cal South has a lot to do with Steve Sampson and the organization he redeveloped the past few years. People can debate this all they want, but I still think he was key to player development in Cal South. Though mostly at the ODP level, not the Club level.
     
  16. GersMan

    GersMan Member

    May 11, 2000
    Indianapolis
    Hey PNE - No Palos Verdes in your top 10 list? I know they had one team at nationals last year, was that more of an exception to the rule?


    by the way, those lower divisions PNE menitons from the CSL are not really pertinent to this discussion. Of course it's nice for any kid to have a chance to play and I too hear that this league is very well organized, But having layers of divisions is not necesarrily different than any other area with a big population base. The test is about how good the top level is.

    Super Y has grown in part because of dissatisfaction among top clubs with what their state associations had for them (including the requirement of being in a local league to play in State Cup). Apparently the main difference in SoCal is satisfied customers. Not all state associations are created equal.
     
  17. Preston North End

    Feb 17, 2000
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The PVSC U15 team at Nationals last year was an exception. They are the only team from PVSC that played in the CSL Premier Division in 2002-03, finishing something like 6th out of 12.

    The rest of their boy's teams are CSL 3rd Division or lower. Good but not the cream. PVSC only had one team in the top two divsions during the Fall 2002 season.

    Agreed about the lower levels - the 4th (Silver) and 5th (Bronze) - in the CSL not being pertinent to what the SYL wants to do. The Presidio Soccer League is run the same way. Like you say, most State Associations operate the same way - as far as structure.

    Frankly, at this level the games and development is not that good. I'm sure there are a small few that make a State or Region ODP team from Clubs at these levels. But, it sure is few and far between.

    Like GersMan says, it's nice kids have a "competitive" place to play. But, IIRC, not one Cal South National Cup finalist in 2001 and 2002 (U12-U19) played 3rd Division or lower League ball the previous Fall. All were either in the CSL Premier and Gold Divisions or the Presidio Soccer League Premier and AAA Divisions.

    I do think the CSL Premier, Gold, Silver Elite is where the SYL should be headed. This is my opinion though. Maybe it should be only two levels, I'll grant that. It should not be more than three. That is for sure.

    There needs to be a Super Y-League National Premier League, a National First Division (the CSL Gold), and a National Second Division (the CSL Silver Elite). All three levels will need to be run on a regional basis, since having a true National Youth Soccer League is not financially feasible.

    Of course having enough Clubs to fill all three levels would be necessary. Easier said than done. I know this.

    Not to show bias, USYS should have National Leagues, not just Cups. I don't care who does it!

    The "National" League set-up could run from March through August. That's 26 weeks to have League, Playoffs (SYL Finals), and Cup (USYS Snickers Cup) games. Clubs could get 20-30 games in during this time frame - maybe more.

    From September through November (the fall) run Leagues on a State level (doesn't have to be a USYS operation). This is 13 weeks that can have 10-15 games.

    Actually the Fall season (say in 2003) can be local "qualifiers" to see where Clubs are placed (Premier, 1st, 2nd Division) in the Spring/Summer of 2004.
     
  18. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Follow Up

    PNE -

    Thanks for the information.

    I probably have overreacted to what occurred last year in Snickers National Youth Championship; you have helped put it into perspective.

    But let's look at things from my view. I'm not too far away from Chicago Magic, the 800 lb gorillas of Region 2 soccer. (Sadly, close enough to smell their breath, but not close enough to send my kid to the program!)

    The Magic dominate Region 2 soccer in a way that no SoCal team dominates Region 1.

    Regional 2 Finals Last Year -

    U13 Magic 2nd place, outscore opposition 15-2
    U14 Magic 1st place, outscore opposition 12-2
    U15 Magic didn't qualify, beaten out by Sockers
    U16 Magic outscore opposition 7-1, but stuck in same bracket as eventual champion Michigan Wolves (lost by a score of 1-0)
    U17 Magic 1st place, outscore opposition 12-3
    U18 Magic didn't qualify, beaten out by Sockers
    U19 Magic 1st place, outscore opposition 18-1

    Get the point? Last year, this club owned the Midwest. Just ask them, they'll tell you.

    Then they go to Nationals. Magic U14s play Nomads. Lose 2-0. Magic U17s play Irvine Strikers. Tie 0-0. Play again in finals. Lose 5-0.

    Three games Magic vs. SoCal, not a single goal scored by Magic. Combined score of 7-0.

    Our school bully fought your school bully, and your guy won the fight after 15 seconds.

    I wish that meant that the rest of us could push around the school bully next year, but sadly, I don't think that will prove to be the case.
     
  19. davide

    davide Member

    Mar 1, 2001
    Re: Re: SoCal Strength

    Razov is actually from Fontana, so he should be included with Donovan and Bocanegra as part of the San Bernardino/Riverside contingent.
     
  20. FAN0011

    FAN0011 New Member

    Jan 9, 2003
    Region1
    Re: Super Y, Southern California

    Top 1% or "best clubs" are myths. In the northeast, some of the Super Y league teams are god awful. One team had a big 2 win season and lost in the first round of state cup. Another team routinely loses 9-0 and 8-0. These teams are expensive. The parents get the line that Super Y will lead to big time college scholarships. Parents THINK they are investing in their child's future.

    Their is value in Super Y play but many of the top players aren't in the league.
     
  21. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Re: Re: Super Y, Southern California

    Fair enough.

    But that's the idea, at least, even if it's not fully executed in reality.
     
  22. SueB

    SueB New Member

    Mar 23, 1999
    Waterbury, VT
    But - if US Club Soccer manages to set up regional leagues (as they intend to do) with a promotion/relegation system and Super Y being the "premier" league, then those mediocre clubs should eventually fall to their correct level, and the cream SHOULD rise to the top. Super Y has only been going on for a few years now and expanded at an incredible pace - it's to be expect that there would be some disparity in the early stages of its development. Same thing with any sport (think of college women's soccer which is only just now starting to have any parity).
     
  23. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    I haven't chimed in on this thread yet, but I want to make a few broad comments that I think will provide some context.

    Apologies in advance for the length of this.
    1. Talent Distribution in Youth Soccer is Lumpy
      Meaning there are clumps of talent on certain clubs in certain regions. This is why, of course, you have seen blowouts in Super Y games, and very much the same reason you see blowouts in league games, too. Sometimes these teams aren't the "usual suspects" but often they are.

      Often you will see a degree of lumpiness from age cohort to age cohort, with one age cohort for some reason having a disproporationate share of the talent compared to one above it or below it, both within clubs and across clubs.

      As SueB pointed out, the talent disparity between teams in SuperY may even out. But it takes time--lots of time. I am a firm believer that all systems regress to the mean/achieve equilibrium, and if SuperY is around long enough, this is what will happen.

      However, in youth soccer, even at say a U16 level, if you have two or three superstars -- outliers to use the statistical term -- you may be able to dominate even if the rest of your team is mediocre (relatively speaking). Though I believe you can "train away" some of the mediocre aspects of play as long a player is a halfway decent athlete. So as a result, from year to year, and team to team, you may still see this lumpiness, even as things, more or less systemically, even out.
    2. The cadre of truly exceptional players at any age group is relatively small
      As a corollary to my first point, it's important to note than in any group of, say, 250 to 300 age-level kids playing soccer more or less as THEIR sport, year round, with professional or semi-professional coaches teaching them, there may be, say, a half-dozen or so who are exceptional. There may, in fact, be a dozen or more; they may, in some instances, be only one or two.

      Over the past three years, I have watched a lot youth soccer in Illinois, particularly of the group that is now U14/U15. Believe me, it's not rocket science to determine who is really good. I know who these kids are...I can rattle off their names.
    3. What are we doing to maximize the development of this cadre of exceptional players? Sage, Marcos, and Wiebe talk about the fact that their organizations are designed to target the top 1% of all soccer players, which is pegged at 30,000. But in point of fact, the system is, or should be, aimed at maximizing the development of the top three-HUNDRED players from U14 through U19.

      This is in my view the great unspoken premise of the Super Y/Elite Club/US Club alliance. Right now, of course, we don't have the formal academy/professional club-attached system of development we see in Europe. Instead, their idea is to fill this void, and create as quasi- a professional youth training scheme as they possible can.
    4. Will the Super Y/US CLub system/approach produce a "better" Jonathan Spector, a "better" CJ Klass or a "better" Ricardo Clark? Or pehaps "more of them?"
      A corollary to point 3. This is the $64,000 question, and as you would expect, neither I or anyone else for that matter know the answer. My initial reaction is "it can't hurt."

      These three players-- among many others -- can be seen as the highest quality "end product" of our youth development system under the previous scheme. Yet in the end, the development responsibilty falls on the club. Super Y/US Club doesn't really CHANGE that -- though it may make it more optimal. The jury is out on this one.
    5. Parent expectations are variable--but not highly so
      I think VERY few parents of MOST of the players at these levels (not the Spectors or Clarks perhaps) have aspirations for their kids to be professional soccer players. Oh, there might be one or two in every club who may look at a kid as future "meal ticket" (good luck on that one), but that is the rare exception rather than the rule.

      Most parents want their kids to play in college.

      Now when it comes to expectations about college scholarships, that's a different story. Some parents are very knowledgable -- and others can be incredibly naive about the prospects for such financial aid for their kid. Of course, this is the key marketing "positioning" for the elite clubs. That they occasionally have a player or two make the professional ranks gets parents to say, "Of course, my kid isn't THAT good, but if he's on a club that produces THAT kind of player, well, he's probably pefectly fine for college." Parents may be right about that...but then again they can be awfully awfully wrong.

      By the way, one of the by-products -- positive or negative -- of having kids involved in year round programs is that, after a while, it all becomes a blur. Training, games, tournaments, travel, motels, febreezing practice t-shirts, new boots every season, driving EVERYWHERE within a 250 mile radius, more games, indoor, outdoor -- week after week week, month after month after month. So any one game that used to be emotional roller coaster just becomes another game in an endless succession of games -- meaningless in their end results, though meaningful in that it creates more of an experience base for the players.
    Well, I've really rambled here. The bottom line is that this changing landscape of youth soccer is not a revolution, but an evolution. And lots of factors will determine whether it achieves both its stated and unstated objectives -- the survival of MLS, the continued success of our national teams, among many other things.

    It will be very interesting to watch.
     
  24. The Wanderer

    The Wanderer New Member

    Sep 3, 1999
    It'll be interesting to see if this new set up produces better players at the top level. And even then will that be because of all of this, or the fact that kids are more educated than ever about the game(TV, etc.).
     

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