I've recently become interested in the Super Y League because a club in my area participates in it. I understand there has been (is) some friction between the Super-Y League and existing USYSA/ODP entities. Just wondering if anybody had some insight into pros and cons of Super-Y with respect to player development and identification of regional ODP pools. One "con" about Super-Y I've seen mentioned is that only a handful of clubs in any given area join it, so players from smaller towns/clubs don't get the same opportunity to be identified. But since the traditional ODP tryouts are still in place, I'm not sure that should be a problem. Another negative comment about it that I've heard is that, while it purports to be the "base of the pyramid" of US player development, the Super Y has no connection at all with teams in higher leagues and so is sort of falsely advertising itself as a way to boost players' chances to move onto the pros. Also, the Super-Y is saying that in 2004, they will have a 20-30 game summer/fall season which could interfere with some high school seasons and double the travel commitments by the players. I'm not sure expanding beyond a summer season is a good thing. But I'm really a newbie in the world of youth soccer. Does anybody have any opinions? Not sure there is a lot of this type of dialog here or not, but figured I'd ask.
Super Y SueB - Karl Keller knows a bit about this subject, since he has a boy playing Super Y. Dan Roudebush might, too. I can't add much to what you wrote except that the Super Y approach has the obvious advantage of being a scouting-based system, rather than a tryout system. You're going to make much better decisions based upon day in, day out evaluations of players in game situations than during a brief tryout. But there are also disadvantages to Super Y, some of which you touched upon.
DC United has expanded its involvement with the Super Y-leage (go check www.dcunited.com). Granted, it isn't a true system of 'recruitment' for later years considering MLS' single entity structure, but it is there. I believe the genesis of DC's sponsored teams came after the early glory years when some youth tournament in France asked if we were sending over our youth squad. (This tournament featured youth clubs of top teams around the world). Well, DC scrambled to put together a squad that did fairly well considering the haste. Later, with the development of the Y-league, a more formal structure was established. I also think that the Metrostars and the Rochester Rhinos have affiliations with teams in the Y-league. The Y-League teams with DC United up for practices and games, but the players still play for a 'primary' club team. If you haven't checked it, go to http://www.superyleague.com/ More specifically, this link addresses the SYL's involvement in ODP http://www.superyleague.com/scripts/runisa.dll?m2:gp::15060+Mediacenter/display+E+50863+A
Yep, I've read all about the Super Y at their own site, and I'm very excited about it. But I know there are other opinions out there, and I'd like to hear some of them. JohnR, thanks for the tips on Karl and Dan; perhaps I'll PM them to see if they have any input.
Regarding ODP identification IMHO the more chances a kid has the better off they are. Looks like from the way Super Y is setup kids will get scouted during games rather than tryouts. But So. Calif. USYSA has a game scouting setup also started by Steve Sampson. Don't know what other states have started this. Regarding pros. Super Y is a USL effort. I have no way of knowing if their structure is scouting, but I would suspect it would be by individual clubs "A" League , PDL, etc. What USL needs is to overhaul it's PDL struture and make it an U19 League for the next level up from Super Y. That would give more strength to their "pro" advertisement. The one problem I have with USL is most of their clubs sign older players. MLS does a better job of signing top youth prospects, IMHO. But perhaps their advertisements (I have not seen these advertisements) refer to Y League teams sponsored by pro clubs such as the DC United effort. In my neck of the woods HS is superior to club ball. Generally it's the other way around. Again choices bewteen HS or club, could be an advantage rather than a disadvantage. Take your pick. The big disadvantage with USYSA ODP programs or Super Y, IMHO is the kids paying their own way. If you want pro youth development then you need pro youth teams with clubs picking up that expense. Great players have a history of coming fom the ranks of the economic disadvantaged. Final note . Competition between USYSA and Super Y is good, IMHO. In fact in his report Querioz predicted such competition would arise as the US seeks it's way through the soccer development world..
Thanks, Dan. That's a good point about the benefit of competition among different youth organizations. I've heard more than one person comment that the USL/Super-Y is trying to put the USYSA out of business - and vice versa! Whether somebody is involved with one or the other organization certainly colors their opinions about the other. I hadn't seen Queiroz' prediction about competition in the youth ranks - that's exactly what is going on, and now that you mention it, it is good. Perhaps the USYSA was sort of fat, dumb and happy and the presence of Super Y is forcing them to adapt and, hopefully, constantly improve their structure. It'll be interesting to see if one or the other "wins out" in the end. I'm not sure I agree with you about making the PDL a U-19 league. For one thing, there is a U-19 Super Y division for boys this year. And I see a continued need for some sort of supplemental league for college-age players. At least until the pro clubs are financially able to put the scouting and development structures in place that you advocate.
I found this interesting link with some of the changes that one club (Seacoast United in New Hampshire) has had to implement to align itself with Super Y regulations and to be competitive with other clubs: http://www.seacoastunited.org/susc_ppm.htm#VI2 The main points Roster size: USYSA = 18; Super Y = 26 Substitutions: USYSA = free subbing; Super Y = restricted subbing Moving up to a higher age group: USYSA generally doesn't allow players from a younger team in the same club to play with an older team in case they are short of players; Super Y allows/encourages this practice. Player pool: this particular club previously fielded teams consisting only of players from within the club. Super Y apparently insists that players be selected from clubs all over the state.
An interesting response to Super-Y proposed by the USYSA: U.S. Youth Soccer Summer National League Materializing http://www.topdrawersoccer.com/ScoreSheet/1044676627/view
Couple of Thoughts Sue - If Super Y has this monstrous 26-person squad size, how the heck can an older team ever be short of players and need the assistance of younger kids? Ah, that's a side point ... my main response is that while I welcome Super Y, this new league is only an oblique solution. Most of us would argue that the main problem for U.S. soccer youth development is not a deficiency of good youth teams, but rather not enough good youth players. Does anybody doubt that the primary reason that the '85 ODPs just got whipped by Corinthian youth teams was that Corinthians had more good players? More kids with better technical skills, and probably better tactics? So, if it is the case that we lack good youth players, why not directly attack that problem? Specifically, why not set up institutions that encourage kids to do what every great player did as a kid -- play a lot! I suppose that you can make an argument that in order to compete at the new, higher level demanded by Super Y, teams (and players) will adjust by figuring out ways to get better by spending more time on the ball. Probably true, in a limited way. Or, you could do what Colorado Rush has done and strike a deal with the local school district where for a moderate fee ($50 per month?), kids have access to daily soccer training/development sessions, in the assumption that they have decided that they want to be good players, and so therefore they want to play everyday. If I had to bet, I'd stake my claim that 500 Colorado Rush style school programs would do more for U.S. soccer development than 500 new Super Y teams.
Miscellaneous points.. John IIRC I think the large Super Y squads are due to travel, and possibly multiple games at the same time. I think the Rush training is a good idea. But your overlooking one of the advnatages of Super Y and that's increased competition betwen better players. That's what the underlying elite club system is about anyway. advertisement. Here's a trailer that sems to be appearing on most USYSA releases. "US Youth Soccer ODP is the first and original ODP program. US Youth Soccer ODP is the only elite player development program that can claim members of Major League Soccer and Women’s United Soccer Association, as well as a majority of current and past national and youth team members, as alumni. And, with programs in all 55 State Associations as well as regional and national championships and participation in international tournaments, US Youth Soccer ODP continues to lead the way. " Pretty crafty on the wording. Like the use of "majority" and "elite" . I mean they wer the only "elite" program around then (lots of AYSO grads in these programs as most kids startout in rec) So the tussle goes on. IMHO not so much between Super Y, but between elite Clubs and USYSA. (Karl Keller has discussed this quite a bit elsewhere.)
My son has been a member of State ODP (last 3 years) and a Super Y League team (last 2 years). Both organizations have strong and weak points. Unfortunately, the strong and weak items vary by state and over time. However, there is also the players perspective. Players perspective: - As in all things competitive opportunities are very important. The more opportunities the better. - Diversified training is a must. - It is difficult to find players (and their families) who are willing to dedicate to one sport. Thus the player has another opportunity to play with another group of dedicated players. - Our state high school association does not allow a high school coach to be present at practices except during the high school season. Thus, other soccer activities are necessary. - No one organization is the best for everyone. A competitor to state ODP monopoly is good. The state ODP coach must now be more inclusive of club players that are not part of the coaches club. I will let others debate the details of the 2 competitors. US Youth Soccer ODP has initiated a regional league in response to Super Y League. How long had it been since any other inovations had been tried (not including SoCal ODP's use of game watching rather than tryouts (just like Super Y League)). NOTE: National ODP teams are at a distinct disadvantage to any pro club youth teams since the ODP teams do not train together every day.
Re: Couple of Thoughts The 85's were at a distinct disadvantage. They were all-star teams who had one or two practices together before taking the field. In fact, Region 1 lost a 2-1 game to the Corithians which could have gone either way. It was their fourth game of the tournament and the ODP teams were getting some team cohesiveness. Another week of training and games and the results would have been quite different.
Talent or Lack of Teamwork? KR - Can't speak for Region 1, which looked like a pretty strong team. Region 2 got spanked, bigtime, and its coach wasn't saying that was because his team hadn't jelled. Said Mike Matkovich - "They saw another level of play, where the technique is great, the speed is very fast. Maybe most importantly, they got to see another soccer environment where soccer is a life and death passion, and environment that our country will never be able to duplicate.”
Band of Players Yahara (Wisconsin, right?) - You write - "It is difficult to find players (and their families) who are willing to dedicate to one sport. Thus the player has another opportunity to play with another group of dedicated players." An excellent point. This isn't Brazil, or Spain. Meaning that most kids who are commonly thought of as "serious soccer players" (play on an "A" competitive team) aren't really serious soccer players -- just good athletes who show up to practice twice weekly during the season and who play the games. The number of true youth soccer fanatics in the U.S. is proportionately much smaller than in the major soccer countries. So the kids (and families) must work hard to find each other. My son's closest friends live 10 and 12 miles away respectively -- the distance he must travel he find kids of a similar soccer ability and interest. If the Chicago Fire (local team) held tryouts a la Corinthinians, these kids would find each other that way. (Or, perhaps, they'd be beaten out by even better youths who they don't yet know about.) But the Fire doesn't, so other institutions -- in this case, the youth club system and summer/winter tournaments -- must serve as the meeting ground.
USL made a concerted effort to get their PDL and A-League franchises to form Super Y League clubs so that there'd be a relationship / natural progression between the youth teams and the "senior" teams. For example, in the 8 team division that my son's team plays in includes the following teams. Grand Valley Premier (PDL West Michigan Edge) TKO Kingdom (PDL Kalamazoo Kingdom) Michigan Wolves Vardar III Cleveland Force Jrs. (MISL Force) Penns Forest (A-League Pittsburgh Riverhounds) Toronto Lynx Jrs. (A-League Lynx) Rochester Jr. Rhinos (A-League Rhinos) So 5 of the 8 teams are associated with a USL Franchise and another is associated with an MISL franchise that is rumored to be looking into forming something in either the A-League or PDL -- which one probably depends upon if Cleveland gets a MLS team. The other two teams are major powers in youth soccer and have been for a long time. In addition, locally here in South Bend, the Indiana Invaders have a PDL team and a full slate of youth teams. Take the state of Michigan for example. Super Y League has stated that these 4 franchises (the first 3 listed above) is going to be it in Super Y for Michigan. There's the 2 traditional heavyweights in the east which have ALWAYS drawn top kid from the entire state but certainly all over eastern Michigan. TKO and GV Premier are in Kalamazoo and Grand Rapids respectively in the western half of Michigan. They'll start drawing kids from all over western michigan. My son's team has already been doing this for the last 2 years as it's the most successful team out of TKO. My son is from an hour away from Kalamazoo in Northern Indiana and made the committment to play up there to be on a better team playing better competition. Since then, we've picked up a play from Holland an hour away, a player from Grand Rapids an hour away and have picked up 2 kids from the next younger age group that had been traveling across state to the Wolves or Vardar to be playing at the highest level of competition. I think that going forward as TKO and GVP play at the Super Y level, you'll start seeing this phenomenon at all the age groups. The top players from all over central and western Michigan will migrate to these 2 teams. As far as the roster size goes, there's a few reasons for doing this... These teams should be doing more travel and should be playing for longer seasons. Whereas most select teams and many premier teams will start training in March and play through late June or early July, the teams at this level will start training in November or December, got to a winter tournament, continue training throughout the winter and will play throughout the summer and into early August if they make the playoffs. In order for the kids to still do things like ODP, summer camps, family commitments and family vacations (other than those built around going to a soccer tournament), you need to build your roster in such a way that you can still play the games when missing 2 or 4 or 6 kids. For example, my son's team has 8 players involved with ODP across 3 age groups and 2 states. Therefore, the weekend that all the ODP teams go to the Regionals, with an 18 man roster, there's no way we can play any league games. With a 26 man roster, they can still play those weekends. Another reason is simply to have more kids being trained at the highest level. This is TKO's first year in the Super Y League and right now, they're sticking to the 18 player rosters. But there's discussion about how to handling the rosters going forward. One point is to break the fees down into two levels -- training fees vs. game fees. All 26 players pay the training fees. But only the 16 players that are named to the game day roster pay the game fees. That way, you have some equity between the kids who get a lot of playing time vs. those that aren't making the game day roster too much. This is one step toward making the training more professional by having the concept of a competition on the team to make the game day roster.
Talent or lack of Teamwork Not the biggest fan of Mr. Matkovich. Every other word out of his mouth would be beeped on Fox. Likes to scream during games. I have always been told (by state, regional and national ODP coaches) that the best coaches do their work during practice and let the players play during the game. Anyway, not here to bash coaches since there will be others who revere Mr. Matkovich. The ODP teams are not always the best team (but they are always very good) in a region for one reason or another (lack of playing time together, lack of chemistry, turnover, not the best players in the region (many fine players do not try out for ODP), etc.).
Band of players Yes Wisconsin. A couple years ago the Fire actually started an academy and held tryouts in a couple locations (Rockford (these were cancelled) and Libertyville. This was when the Super Y League was just a couple years old. Tim Carter (current head coach of Pittsburgh Riverhounds) was the director. A couple players (including my son) in our area found out about the tryouts. Parents of the players made some contacts with the Fire. We wanted to find out if the academy was going to lead to the formation of teams or just a money maker for the Fire. We were lead to believe that the Fire Youth Academy would have Super Y League teams after the first year. So the kids went to the tryouts (4 days straight and 2 1/2 hour drive) and were picked to be part of the academy. The kids were very excited as were the parents. Tim Carter even did a couple of the training sessions (which included winter indoor training). In addition, a very fine Chicago area player who is currently in the national pool was also in the academy. Unfortunately the Super Y League teams never materialized. Unfortunately, almost all the kids and parents on my sons club team thought this type of commitment was insane (my son was a U12 at the time and his school work did not suffer - if he had homework he did it during the ride). JohnR's comment about competition for spots on a team is an important point. Many players (and their parents) in my area believe the goal is to get on an "A" competitive team rather than improving once on the team. This attitude along with the lack of a big pool of quality players mean there is not a great deal of incentive to improve.
The Milwaukee Rampage team is associated with the A-League squad to some degree. Boro Sucevic, the Rampage coach actually coached a youth team called the Elm Grove Rampage, which fielded at least four guys to the A-league squad. They are all '78's. I think that Henning and Fadeski are still playing on the Rampage, and for the Fire reserves(?). The new Super-Y team is coached by ex-nat Jimmy Banks, but Boro is behind it to a large degree, along with the Wave coach, Keith Tozer. Notice that both the Wave and the Rampage are at the top of their respective leagues. So the 56ers have a squad too? Are they competitive with, say, Brookfield or FC Milwaukee? I am assuming that you would know Yahara87. Do the best Madison players play for the Super-Y team? 56ers always seemed to be the best Mad-town team, along with Yahara. Did the old 56ers club just change their club policy to play in the Super-Y league? Can they still play vs other local clubs in tournaments? People in Brookfield have been really against Super Y, mostly because they care more about keeping local players in the club. There are actually a lot of good players in the Milwaukee area, but they rarely play together, and ODP is a joke (at least it used to be). In my age group the club coach for Mequon was the state team coach as well, making it a miracle if you made the team unless you played for Mequon. I think that the only way to get players to really want to play Super-Y is to make sure that the professional teams pick up some of the costs, and are actually involved in the training. Otherwise there is no advantage, as the coaching in the top clubs is all done by former Wave and Rampage players anyway, for the most part.
I know that current realities about one league vs the other league are very, very important, but I would also like to interject that the Super Y league is important for other reasons. In order for player development to succeed at high level in this country, it needs to be run by professionals. Volunteers will never have the same accountablity that the players need from coaches and league and club officials. The Super Y League is structured for the specific purpose of facilitating the transfer of player development over to professional clubs. How well that is happening in the short term isn't as important as the fact that the league is structured to make this transition as easy as possible. The US Youth Soccer Association has been an important part of the development of soccer in this country and will continue to be. It has done a wonderful job of getting parents and volunteers involved in the organization of soccer and it should be commended for it. This very strength is, however, it's biggest problem. These same volunteers are demonstrating, as we post, that they are having a very hard time giving up control of any aspect of youth soccer as they jockey with the Super Y League for control of US player development. The good folks at the US Youth Soccer Association need to let the Super Y League do what it does best (work toward turning the training of top youth players over to the pros) and instead concentrate on doing what it does best (providing opportunities to play the game to as many kids as possible).
This is all good discussion, the kind I was hoping to generate! It sounds like most of the posters feel Super Y is a good idea, and if it leads to changes in the way USYSA operates, it's probably for the better. I was just reading an article about the recent agreement between US Club Soccer and the Super Y. Now US Club Soccer recognizes the Super Y League as the top youth league in the country and will admit SYL teams to its national cup competition. But apparently part of their plan is to create "Division 2 and 3" regional youth leagues (under Super Y). It seems these would be in direct competition with existing regional USYSA leagues. Anybody here know much about US Club Soccer and whether it is a viable alternative to USYSA. Do USCS and USYSA work together at all? Frankly, I'd never really heard of USCS before this announcement.
My understanding is that USCS came about partially because of elite clubs chaffing under USYSA restrictions, particularly those imposed by state bodies. Karl Keller can comment on that as can Hala Madrid's dad. Don't know if he posts anymore. USCS now has separate representation within the USSF, similar to USYSA and AYSO. There was another thread on USCS somewhere. Darn if I remember what forum it's under. Try searching. Of course BS has deleted a ton of stuff due to crashes.
Try Google Sue A ton of stuff also when you plug in US Club Soccer into Google Scan the retrivals. If you want a particular topic try also searching within the results.
Matkovich "Not the biggest fan of Mr. Matkovich. Every other word out of his mouth would be beeped on Fox. Likes to scream during games. I have always been told (by state, regional and national ODP coaches) that the best coaches do their work during practice and let the players play during the game. Anyway, not here to bash coaches since there will be others who revere Mr. Matkovich. The ODP teams are not always the best team (but they are always very good) in a region for one reason or another (lack of playing time together, lack of chemistry, turnover, not the best players in the region (many fine players do not try out for ODP), etc.)." That is one of the dumbest comments I have ever heard in my life. If you watch any coach in the World Cup they are all off the bench and yelling to their players. The reason for this is it is sometimes easier to see things from the sideline then when you are actually playing. Good coaches coach in practice and in games. If they don't do anything during games then whats the point of having a coach there. The team should just coach itself in games. Also, I can guarentee that you have never played for him so you are talking out of your ass. You have maybe seen him a few time and thats what your opinion is based on. GEt a life and stop writing pointless posts.
Now now, it's the YOUTH soccer forum, let's keep it clean for little eyes and ears. More seriously, great discussion on the topic. Someone mentioned the Fire youth teams and tryouts. We did a story on their setup. Peter Wilt explained that they haven't put their teams in matches mainly because the schedule is already so crowded for Chicago area club and school teams (including some that play in Super Y). But I did come away with the impression that the club is seriously committed to helping with the development of area players, via quality coaching and training. As someone noted, if a family is gauging everything on being on a certain team and match results, they miss out on this.
The parents need to be educated about the differences between development and winning. What a huge nightmare all of this youth soccer BS seems to be. This whole process would be so much simpler if MLS/USSF just got together and did U17 teams kind of like the Bradenton set-up.