Stop Dragan this Out: The Wenger Succession Thread

Discussion in 'Arsenal' started by elessar78, Feb 15, 2017.

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  1. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    without trying to knock the current players, i think it may also have to do with 1) the individual characters of the players that do develop and 2) players feeling accountable to other players rather than just free reigning it.

    i feel like the players that developed and progressed under wenger had/have a specific personality where they are just driven to succeed, the football smarts to figure it out on their own, and wenger's lack of structure allows them to be themselves: bergkamp, henry, pires, vieira, and, more recently, fabregas and van persie. my eternally biased self thinks rosicky, had he managed any type of health, could/would have made that type of progression. the people who do not have either the drive (bendtner, pennant, bentley) or who needs more coaching (oxlade-chamberlain, ramsey) just . . . do not.

    i also feel like that the team from that "good" era felt more accountable to each other - would YOU piss lauren off?!?! - so there wasn't a need for managerial oversight. the only time past that era that we have had any accountability held was when mertesacker and arteta TOGETHER were controlling the locker room (like undertaker for the fed!). which, sadly, coincided with what felt like, at least to me, felt like our lowest talent point. though, i guess that does speak volume for the work they did in keeping those teams fighting then. we couldn't beat top teams but we squeaked out wins against the dregs when we didn't play well.
     
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  2. daedalus

    daedalus Member+

    Apr 24, 2004
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    and with THIS point? i absolutely agree. your post, which i quoted specifically, asked, "where's the upside?" and i answered. the end.

    had ZERO to do with managing "the perception of Wenger's career" then. has ZERO to do with it now.
     
  3. Fifty

    Fifty Member

    Mar 11, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree which makes me feel like Wenger has been so overrated. Most coaches could get out of the way from those listed.
     
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  4. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    But here's the thing, the Spanish elite have got their artistic playmakers running and ball winning. Xavi and Iniesta weren't above hard-work. Neither are Kroos and Modric. At. Madrid is on a whole different level with the likes of Saul and Koke.

    Take someone like Wilshere for example. He could be bother a ball player and a ball winner. Just like Koke. But he could never look as good as Koke because Koke press in an organised and systematic team, while if Wilshere press, he'd be doing out of his own initiative.
     
  5. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    In general though guys like matuidi and kante etc have to start

    The guys u mention do everything and are world class but on a general level i feel like strong runners are becoming super important in the 433 which is why guys like prince etc wanted to see ramsey more in that role

    I do like guys like vidal and nainggolan
     
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  6. chjoak

    chjoak Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I would really like to see us run a 3 man mid Not sure it would work with Wenger because of his lack of tactical coaching but I think Xhaka, Wilshire & Ramsey could be very good in that formation and with the right manager...

    If Ozil & Alexis re-sign

    ------------OG -- Alexis ------
    --------------- Ozil -------------
    -----------------------------------
    Wilshire -- Xhaka -- Ramsey
    -----------4 man back line ---

    If they don't (and in absence of new signings)

    --------------- OG ---------------
    Iwobi ------------------- Walcott
    -------------------------------------
    Wilshire -- Xhaka -- Ramsey
    -----------4 man back line ---
     
  7. footykid

    footykid Member+

    Jan 10, 2005
    Mississauga, Ont
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    The modern game is about transition and phase-management. Arsenal seem to take free-flowing as lack of structure and those things aren't the same.

    Free-flowing, means players playing different positions at different times. Lack of structure just means a general lack of responsibility, finger pointing, and losing games when individual talent won't suffice. Soccer isn't actually that complicated. Managers like Big Sam and such can get a team of spare parts they fall into and get them to play decent football and get decent results, if you give them any money they mess it up by thinking they are smarter than they are.

    There are some key players playing in roles they don't excel.

    Xhaka: is essentially an advanced CB

    Bellerin: a Wingback, he should be at outlet pass, almost every time we defend.
     
  8. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Imo to function as a 4 3 3 we need a good attacking lb

    ..........sanchez
    Ozil..................theo
    ........ramsey..cazorla
    .............xhaka

    With the full backs pushing up chaka drops deeper

    Imo if ozil goes we should look at a guy like reus or fekir or any other techically good inside forward who can play in a front 3 and rotate with the other players

    We would need another lb, multi faceted cm and a quakity forward at least
     
  9. AEAAFC96

    AEAAFC96 Member+

    Mar 27, 2006
    NYC
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The only concern the board have about the fans is when the season ticket sales start dipping.
     
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  10. chjoak

    chjoak Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't see Ozil as a good fit in a 4-3-3. If he stays I think you run a 4-3-1-2 with Ozil playing a CAM/SS role much like he is doing now. For the 2 ST I would pair 2 more mobile ST that are capable of helping to create depth as well as spread out the D when needed. Would be nice if one of the 2 is also capable be being a target-man when needed.

    If Ozil leaves and you switch to a 4-3-3 like you laid out above, There are a ton of good options for wings that should be attainable. If Alexis leaves as well, I think it would be nice to grab another mobile ST to play the 9. Someone like Morata, Lacazette, Aubamayang, Dybala, Aguero, etc...
     
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  11. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Ozil as a false 9 in a 4-3-3. Lots of good wide forwards out there.
     
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  12. Serengeti_Boy

    Serengeti_Boy Member+

    Sep 15, 2009
    Serengeti, East Africa
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Tanzania
    Wilshere and Ramsey? Would they really start at Spurs or Liverpool over Dembele, Wanyama, Wijinauldum, Henderson?
     
  13. thebigman

    thebigman Member+

    May 25, 2006
    Birmingham
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Yeah my diamond idea is kind of a false 9 formation but obviously theo and sanchez go wides

    Realistically i prefer now

    ......welbeck...............alexis
    ....................ozil
    ..........ramsey.....cazorla
    ..................xhaka
    Mon....kos.........must.....bell
     
  14. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I'd rather sell Alexis, put Ozil as a false nine, and buy two good wide forwards this summer, with Walcott and Perez as depth.

    That would make the shopping list for this summer two wide forwards, a left back, and another midfield passer because Xhaka is a walking red card.
     
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  15. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Ramsey would absolutely start at Spurs and Liverpool. I think Bournemouth/Everton is Wilshere's level.
     
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  16. ArsenalJake

    ArsenalJake Member+

    Feb 11, 2013
    Charlotte
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Until he starts for Man City next season.
     
  17. chjoak

    chjoak Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think both can be better than many fans give them credit. They have flaws but part of their issue at Arsenal is that they don't fit into AWs managerial style or formation. Maybe they don't fit the 3-man mid like I suggest either but I would personally like to try rather than selling them to another EPL club that beats us with them later. There is a reason clubs like Man City & Juventus have expressed interest in Wilshire and Barca expressing interest in Ramsey last summer.
     
  18. chjoak

    chjoak Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't think that is a natural fit for him. To be effective the wide players would have to pinch inside a good bit which would effectively turn us into the 4-3-1-2 i described above.
     
  19. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I think the square peg in a round hole issue describes a lot of the players at Arsenal including Ozil and Alexis. Wenger's tried to buy the best available player and make the pieces fit, and the result has been a jury rigged system. Though that can be said about Arsenal for the last five years or so. The last Arsenal team that really "fit" Wenger's style and formation was the Fabregas/Van Persie team. Had those two stayed healthy, we probably have a few more trophies.

    I question whether Wilshere is that good. He hasn't exactly set the world on fire at Bournemouth. You'd expect someone with that talent to dominate games when surrounded by not quite as talented players.
     
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  20. NorthBank

    NorthBank Member+

    Arsenal; NYRB
    United States
    Mar 29, 2006
    Connecticut
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Arsecast today mentioned 3 old boys who are currently DOF's: Edu, Gilberto & Overmars. The latter having the most experience at that job. Hmm.
     
  21. chjoak

    chjoak Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wouldn't want any of them as manager but wouldn't have an issue with bringing Overmars and/or Gilberto on-board in other capacities.
     
  22. mebeSajid

    mebeSajid Member+

    Feb 16, 2009
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Wouldn't want any of them as DOF. Maybe Overmars, but Ajax isn't what it was.
     
  23. DutchCane

    DutchCane Member+

    Apr 6, 2004
    New York, New York
    Must be two citys
     
  24. DutchCane

    DutchCane Member+

    Apr 6, 2004
    New York, New York
    You don't want anything from Ajax except Justin Kluivert at this point
     
  25. DutchCane

    DutchCane Member+

    Apr 6, 2004
    New York, New York
    What's Wilshire done to inspire this faith? LMAOOO this is like 1,569,359 Moms supporting their child who just isn't good enough and that's fine.
     
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