Steve Cherundolo on coaching and youth development

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Bayard, Aug 9, 2017.

  1. Scotty

    Scotty Member+

    Dec 15, 1999
    Toscana
    Brings to mind Benny Feilhaber's observations at Hamburg not long after arriving from UCLA:

    "The competitiveness in training is enormous, which makes it really difficult to have good friends on the team," Feilhaber said in a telephone interview from Germany. "Everyone’s competing with you, and if you’re doing well it means it’s bad for them. It’s an environment of real competition in training and it’s unbelievable how people fight against one another to win a spot on the team.

    "I never felt that in the U.S.," he said.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/15/sports/soccer/15soccer.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&
     
  2. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006

    Well, yeah.

    Two years at Portland would be terrific, considering the new coach and where he's taking the program.

    Besides, I'd get to watch some good soccer as a bonus.:)
     
  3. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Cherundolo joined Hannover at the tail end of the 98-99 season. He was 20 at that time (born Feb 1979)
     
  4. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    #29 Cliveworshipper, Aug 10, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
    Thanks.

    Transfermark. https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/steven-cherundolo/profil/spieler/1335

    Shows he signed on Jan1 1999

    We can split the difference at 19.


    I'm not sure how that fortifies the -we have to get our kids in Europe at 16- argument.

    Though seeing that his birthday is February, it does show Malcolm Gladwells theory that having your kid born in the first Quarter is important.
     
  5. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #30 jond, Aug 10, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
    Despite how arguments are phrased at times, I'm of the opinion the Euro vs MLS debate for 16-18 yr olds only really applies to our top 1-2%. Of course, many of our youth NTers are our top 1-2% so that's why the Euro opportunities follow but by and large, the large majority of our players will come thru our system.

    And whether it's Chero or others, it's pretty clear the 16-20 age range is a clear weakness and I'd argue, where we lose ground on others, then never really catch up.

    The "how" we do that is a lengthy conversation with numerous issues.

    For example, since we're talking the top 1-2% in my mind, a guy like Pomykal signing for FCD seems a pretty good situation. However, Carleton is not in ATL's plans this season and might be our top stateside prospect, period. Would he have been better served to do a year of NASL ball and go to Germany next summer at 18? Maybe. I'd probably go with yes given the interest he had. Will Sargent fall that far behind by playing U17's this fall and going to Werder in that same window next summer? I don't really think so. He's our top striker prospect stateside so it doesn't seem he's fallen behind anyone. McKennie waited till 18 to sign with Schalke and it appears a phenomenal decision. But these are our most elite prospects.
     
  6. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    Clive actually talked about that just before he died. The argument is that college players ( there were no academies) didn't get enough games a year.

    College players only play 20 max during the season, and until the early 90's could play on semipro teams ( Keller -and others- played for the Timbers while he was in college).
    Those opportunities were taken away.
     
  7. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Disagree. Most people think the American player lacks technique. I, personally, loved Steve's point because it's one I've made a hundred times here, that the biggest weakness in our system is the tactics. Physically we're top notch, technically we're good enough, but tactically we stink. Kids don't watch games on TV with their dads.

    The next time I have this argument with a poster here, I hope I remember this article. ;) :D
    Read the last part of the article.

    "Prior to that, you can do a lot of wonderful things on the technical side and the physical side to get players ready, but from 16 to 18, that's where you need to learn the tactics of the game and implement them on the weekend against high-quality opponents. That's the problem in the U.S. right now."

    His argument is that Pulisic went to Germany at the precise point in his development that the tactical side of things gets worked on. I'm not saying necessarily that he's right and you're wrong; it does seem a bit of "argument by hand waving" by Steve. But there's also something to what he says, IMO.
     
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  8. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I get this point...but I think people exaggerate the difference, because a player who is elite at MLS has a very similar mentality to a player who is elite at a big club, and the same goes for marginal players. If Messi has a bad week of practice, he's not going to be benched. Same with Landon in MLS.

    The thing is that even the most elite players in MLS aren't elite at top clubs. They may go to Euro clubs and be elite within that club...my favorite example is Ryan Nelsen going to Blackburn and becoming captain and the first name on the team sheet within a few months. But Ryan still may have a cut throat mentality because he wants to move up the food chain from Rovers to (then) Everton or Spurs. And if he made it there, he'd want to move to Liverpool or Arsenal. Now, once a guy is at one of those clubs, and is elite in the context of the club, then he can be jolly toward the trialists.
     
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  9. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Even a player like Pulisic, who is elite at a top club, has commented on the differences in mentality and culture.

    This isn't even a 'top club' thing. Players have commented on the different cultures at the youth professional levels and the lower professional levels.

    99 percent of the players at a given club aren't the Messi or Donovan of that club.
     
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  10. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you include all of the teenagers, sure.
     
  11. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    In 10 months, Dortmund had Pulisic tactically ready for their first team? From my reading, he thoroughly dominated their youth ranks. What did they work on, his scowl?

    Funny thing is, at some point, he still wanted to go home. But his dad convinced to stay. That cultural aspect keeps popping up.
     
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  12. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    This whole "we have to get our kids in Europe at 16" discussion is one of the silliest on Big Soccer. Partly because the overwhelming majority of our prospects don't have European passports and thus can't go to Europe until they're 18.

    And secondly because the USMNT cannot advance without its domestic programs improving and developing. Yes, we can get the player or two over to Europe early (like Pulisic and Hyndman). But that's gonna be a very slim portion of our player pool.

    MLS clubs are ramping up investment year after year into both their academies and their reserve/USLPro teams. We're starting to see results. But to some degree a lot of patience is required here. There seem to be folks that are expecting MLS to develop young players like they do in the Bundesliga..........................TOMORROW! The culture of youth development has to be built. The youth coaching infrastructure has to be built. The youth facilities have to be built.

    I think we need to manage some expectations here.

    What's undoubtedly true is that European clubs seem to really want to sign young Americans. There's a steady stream of kids heading over. So while we're bashing our young development programs, European clubs sure seem to want the products of those programs. And we can include U20s in that as I believe Palmer-Brown, Adams, etc. will be in Europe soon.

    There's a disconnect there. We're getting better at this development game folks, and the more input we get from people like Cherundolo the better off we'll be.
     
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  13. largegarlic

    largegarlic Member+

    Jul 2, 2007
    Just to add to the points about the cultural and psychological elements, it's a lot to ask of an 18-year-old kid to leave his friends and family and essentially become a soccer-playing hermit in Europe. Not to rely too heavily on my experience, but the team I trialed with put me up in a hotel and paid for my meals, but I didn't really have much money (I don't really remember, but presumably my parents gave me a couple hundred bucks in spending money), so pretty much I hung out in my hotel room by myself for a month (outside of the couple hours per day for practice and/or games). More power to the guys who go over and make it in that sort of situation, but I suspect the majority of US kids would find it as difficult as I did.
     
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  14. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    Meanwhile, while we talk of sending kids to Europe, we are missing the influx of European players coming to college to play.

    The local university has a kid coming from the Everton youth program, a Kid from Germany's Hertha youth program, and kids from Portugal, Belgium, and a kid from the Republic of the Congo through the International school in the Haugue. Also a Brazilian kid who was at Monteverde Academy in Florida. The coach says there are multiple agencies from Germany alone who are trying to place players in the USA.schools.

    It seems kids are attracted by the idea that you don't have to choose between soccer and school. There is increasingly more than one path for kids just when we are trying to replace our traditional method for kids to move up.
     
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  15. Bob Morocco

    Bob Morocco Member+

    Aug 11, 2003
    Billings, MT
    We need a far better developmental mentality from our coaches, front offices, and ownership groups. There's still a gap between youth and first teams that USL needs to fill (and think about who's coaching and running those clubs) but even with the rare kids who are good enough to make the jump or the guys who are older and could be made into better pros we are doing a poor job.

    If we have a suboptimal environment and limited capacity to work the levers within it what kind of results can one expect?
     
  16. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    Just raise the salaries of first and second division players. The rest falls into place.
     
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  17. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    in my opinion, this is one of the silliest types of arguments on BS...

    "Same thing can be said for Weston McKennie. Left FCD and within a calendar year had made his debut for Schalke. But somehow folks give zero credit to our domestic programs, and believe that kids go over to Europe and get sprinkled with some sort of magical pixie dust."

    It's not magical pixie dust, but it is currently the best environment for 16-20 yo to develop. The best culture, tactics, competition, etc.

    The USMNT could advance advance significantly if every top 18 yo (or 16 yo with a passport) got into a situation like Pulisic or McKennie are in now. By 2026, we could have very deep pool with just these players who have spent their careers in this environment.

    Ideally, MLS progress on the development front will have continued to improve at a faster and faster pace. I'm in the wait and see on Carleton, but it would be great if they had a second team so he'd at least be getting games. It isn't going to happen overnight and we all need to have patience, while demanding that they do better. This is the exact reason why our top players should be getting into the best environment than can now, which is generally not MLS, and hopefully that will change over time.

    MLS won't be harmed by the top 10 kids going overseas isn't going to stop them from building a coaching infastructure, culture and environment where they can get minutes. As the league shows they can develop players, fewer players will need to leave to get the best development opportunity possible. They may get there, but they aren't there yet. As you and others point out, MLS hasn't been around for 25 years and have a long way to go. There's nothing wrong with that, but acting like they are more than are isn't helpful for anyone.
     
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  18. SUDano

    SUDano Member+

    Jan 18, 2003
    Rochester, NY
    I agree our true top players need to go the right situation. But aren't you picking and choosing players to fit a narrative. 2 have succeeded, Pulisic and McKennie while dozens haven't. Works for a few but isn't a solution for all. Lletget got his national team debut after returning to the US. MLS teams need USL teams and need to USE them.
     
  19. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Of course one size doesn't fit all, but as a general rule, getting in a situation with the best coaches, players, culture, etc is the way to go. To further clarify my view, here is something I wrote in a YA thread.

    "I'm disappointed that Akale and/or Perez haven't broken through, but am holding out hope for them to do so. If it isn't going to happen for them where they are, I hope they continue improving while there and don't wait too long before choosing to move on."

    I don't see Lletget as an argument against what I'm suggesting. His time at west ham was derailed due injury/illness and then never made the jump to the first team. He was still trained at a level that prepared him for MLS and maybe even higher. He made an impact from the first time he stepped on the field for the Galaxy.

    There are many others who have not had great success abroad to only come back to MLS and be very successful. Lee Nguyen couldn't get on the field in Holland, spent time in Vietnam, and the was a MVP candidate. Feilhaber tried Germany and England without material success before Denmark and then back to MLS. LD and Taylor twellman are two others that spent a year or two in the reserves in Germany and hit the ground running.

    A lot more prospects have not reached their potential in MLS. The list of top MLS only career players isn't that impressive. The players that succeed in MLS often go abroad so not completely fair analysis, but worth noting. In no particular order, Pope, Besler, Nagbe, Zusi, Wondowloski, Beckerman, Conrad, Davis... who did I miss?

    The other part to this part of the discussion is that many players seem to plateau after a couple years in the league while those that move abroad continue to improve. Dempsey, Bradley, Altidore, klejstan, EJ, etc are all examples of players coming back to MLS significantly better players than when they left.

    MLS Doesn't need our top players to build infastructure, have USL teams, improve coaching, etc. Luckily, they keep making decisions that make young players think twice about signing with them. After the signing of Arriola, I'm sure Acosta is looking at his paycheck and thinking things don't really add up. It'll be interesting to see the details on Efrain Alvarez's contract, but hard to think he couldn't have made more money going the path of Arriola.
     
  20. Mantis Toboggan M.D.

    Philadelphia Union
    United States
    Jul 8, 2017
    And that pipeline will become all the more attractive if guys like Jack Harrison, Jack Elliott, and Julian Gressel can start attracting attention from big clubs in Europe.
     
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  21. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I am also concerned about players like Gooch, Rubin, Zelalem, Hyndman, Payne and quite a few others.

    A few years back I had hoped that some of these players would have been on the fringes of the national team by now but instead they have seen players like Arriola, Morris and Acosta move to that level ahead of them.

    McKennie breaking through would be a VERY welcome sight for US National Team fans. The good news is that all of these players are still young, the bad news is that the years pass very quickly.
     
  22. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I'm slightly concerned about those guys, some more than others. Some it has been injuries, some its situations.

    It's not clear to me that the guys you mention are necessarily ahead of the other guys, but that the new coach has picked them. I think most of those guys in Europe could walk into MLS sides and might be in the picture... exactly the way Lletget did. Gooch, Rubin, and Hyndman have looked ok to slightly impressive in their limited minutes with the USMNT. Rubin hasn't seemed to recover from is injury and didn't see his ceiling as high. Gooch was a fringe u20 player and looked to make some big strides after being left off. I haven't followed Payne's situation as close. I've been really hoping for at least one of Hyndman and Zelalem to break through. I think Hyndman is close but continues to be unlucky with small injuries. An ACL for Zelalem could have a huge impact.

    McKennie is something to get very excited about. Time does pass quickly, but always remind folks that Hyndman still isn't behind the timeline of Reyna. I had hoped for more than that from him, but if he was at that level and struggling to get on the field because we are pairing McKennie and Pulisic in front of dmid, we will have jumped a level.
     
  23. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Morris was from JK not Arena, but in the end from a national team picture, it comes down to impressing the coach so that you can be picked. Every coach will have different things they value but one thing all coaches love is that there players are playing regularly at club level so that they can be evaluated.

    If the players have chosen a development path which sees them get limited playing time, their chances to get chosen and have a positive affect on the National Team diminish no matter who the coach is IMO. We have far too many of our best young players not playing enough minutes right now and that goes for all leagues, Europe, MLS, Liga MX etc.

    Lletget is a perfect example as you mentioned. He chose a development path that saw him moments away from quitting the sport. Not that he is in any way a game changer but you still hate to see any talent thrown away that is of national team quality.

    Thankfully Arena provided him a lifeline and more importantly playing time in LA that unknowingly at the time helped him impress the future national team coach.
     

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