statement regarding 1906 ultras protest

Discussion in 'San Jose Earthquakes' started by SJTillIDie, Apr 9, 2011.

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  1. tonyh01

    tonyh01 Member

    Nov 9, 2003
    San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wow!
     
  2. JLoeza

    JLoeza Guest

    No one is saying don't express yourselves, just don't it in a way that isn't so blatantly demeaning.
     
  3. skippybentley

    skippybentley Member

    Aug 9, 2009
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Seriously?!? I don't see the equivalence. The offended women aren't punishing the ultras. Rather, the agents of the owners who grant you access to a private event have imposed conditional terms on future entry to future games.

    How far should speech rights be extended at Quakes games? Is it the same standard as the street corner? Which, if any, of the following signs should the FO prohibit to protect its interests...

    • "We will fist fight the Riot Squad after the game"
    • "Female Galaxy fans are sluts"
    • "Children are not welcome at Quakes games"
    • "Go home, Mexicans"
    • "Amway products are crap"

    These statements would be highly offensive or counter to the Quakes' interests. I'm just saying...your argument that the stadium is an unfettered free speech zone doesn't hold water.
     
  4. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    The answer to bad speech is more speech. The FO could have told the Ultras that they found the tifo offensive and politely asked that they refrain from similar such efforts. The tactic more than likely would have succeeded because, believe it or not, the Ultras value collaboration with the FO.

    Instead the FO chose to punish the Ultras for alleged "obscenity" and refused all entreaties (including from me) to reconsider. No purpose was or is served by the probation other than to agitate the Ultras and, plainly, to divide the fanbase and ultimately to potentially forfeit fervent fans.

    You and the FO have made your displeasure with the tifo clear. Now, it's time to retract the probation.
     
  5. Mister Luther

    Mister Luther Member

    Aug 27, 2010
    Did you love when the ultras female member was shoved to the ground by the head of the security on his way to catch some guy going to the top of the section? I was sitting nearby with my family and my wife and the kids were shaking.

    Based on what I talked to some of their guys tonight, the banner was just one of the reasons they were protesting. There was physical violence against their members at the home opener, and there were other bans that they considered unjust. Per my conversation with one of their members, they were not protesting the sanction for that banner alone, but the fact that it came only after a fan from Seattle complained. Security should've done their job and pull that banner-which by the way neither my wife or I found obscene-down right away. That would've avoided this whole mess.

    I got a question for those of you complaining that Ultras should've done their job tonight to support the team: What did you do tonight to support our team? It's not their job. They do it because they choose to. Tonight they chose to be like the rest of the fans and the result was a morgue like atmosphere. It was an awkward silence and one of my worst experiences at a Quakes game since the Spartan days.

    I was near the player's tunnel, and at the end of the game they threw their jerseys to the Ultras who were there chanting for them. So I believe they knew what was up with the protest.

    PS: I found that Charlie Sheen video someone posted kind of funny. But tagging it "porn stars"?!? What porn stars? Our players? Really, if this is the message that the FO is sending out, what do they expect from the Ultras?
     
  6. dspserpico

    dspserpico Member

    Jul 7, 2008
    Newark, NJ
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This protest is as much about the lack of good faith dealing between the Ultras and FO than the actual tifo itself. The Ultras have gotten into disagreements with the FO in the past but those issues were resolved through dialogue. This time there as been no dialogue. The short version of the dispute is like this.

    FO: A Sounders fan has complained that your tifo is obscene, and you guys are on probation.

    Ultras: We don't think it was obscene, Suppprters Bill of Rights says we can appeal this. So let's appeal.

    FO: Your appeal has been denied.

    No dialogue whatsover.

    There has been other issues from this season where the Ultras have been stonewalled. An Ultra would be punished and appeals would be denied without explaination. Or an Ultras member would be injured by security, the FO would deny the incident, and refuse to meet with the affected member. If that person was "regular fan" and received that kind of treatment from the FO. I'm sure that person would have lawyered up by now.

    The Ultras aren't looking for preferential treatment, but for fair treatment. I don't know why the FO wants to go nuclear.
     
  7. Beerking

    Beerking Member+

    Nov 14, 2000
    Humboldt County
    [​IMG]
     
  8. don gagliardi

    don gagliardi Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    Feb 28, 2004
    san jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    I didn't say the the stadium is an "unfettered" free speech zone. I did suggest, contrary to your previous assertion, that I don't believe the Quakes have carte blanche to prohibit on a content-basis whatever speech they please at their caprice and whim.

    But, assuming for sake of argument, the Quakes have complete and "unfettered" discretion to prohibit on a content-basis whatever speech they like, nevertheless, using your terminology, it is "counter to the Quakes' interests" to adopt a heavy-handed legalistic approach to dealing with the Ultras based on the content of their banners.

    In this case, the legalistic approach -- a five-game "probation" for an allegedly "obscene" banner which was not obscene -- predictably induced a severe backlash from persons who were innocent of the legalistic charge, reinforcing the indispensibility of the Ultras to the stadium atmosphere and bringing greater awareness across the internet to the tifo that the FO disapproves of and supposedly harms the club by association. Nobody seems to have noticed the tifo in the stadium during the Seattle game itself, but now, because the FO refused to rescind its ill-considered probation imposed days after the fact, that tifo will likely become the most notorious in MLS history. Censorship inevitably backfires.
     
  9. Beerking

    Beerking Member+

    Nov 14, 2000
    Humboldt County
    Ah, the reason behind this whole discordant note is made crystal clear.
     
  10. TonyHarrison

    TonyHarrison Member

    Sep 7, 2008
    San Francisco
    Club:
    West Ham United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    the whole period the Quakes have been back, there's been an immense amount of tension between those fans who want the 'real' football experience as practiced around the world and those who want it to be a family friendly day out for the kids.

    it's always been obvious which of those the FO have been going after and this latest nonsense confirms it to me. i did think the Ultras tifo was ridiculous and immature but you know what ? they put in the effort to make it, they were loud as ******** all game etc. i certainly didn't think it was something worth 'taking away their tifo privileges' or whatever stupid 'treating people like children' bullshit the FO are pulling. the stance of the FO and the poor treatment of fans who actually try to support the team is mostly why i didn't go to any games last year and didn't renew my season tickets the last 2 years. i love the Quakes and watch every game live and even went back to the Seattle game to take some friends of mine who really wanted to go check out a match, but the treatment of fans who don't have or aren't kids by the FO and the Buck Shaw staff (and even other fans, i've been asked to stop chanting or singing before and it wasn't because of non-child friendly lyrics, it was 'too loud') continues to turn me off MLS, and that's not even counting the ridiculously bad refereeing on a consistent basis (at least the quality of play has gotten a lot better over the past few years).

    it's MLS and the Quakes' right to choose which set of fans they're going to go after, but they shouldn't be surprised when the other set tells them to go ******** themselves. i'll save the money from a season ticket and go and make my annual pilgrimage to upton park with my mum and dad instead, personally, until the FO decides that fans with passion are actually welcome and everything shouldn't be sacrificed for a bunch of 7 yr olds who rarely even watch the actual game.
     
  11. TonyHarrison

    TonyHarrison Member

    Sep 7, 2008
    San Francisco
    Club:
    West Ham United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    i think she's still upset about playing on fake grass every week at home, tbh.
     
  12. TonyHarrison

    TonyHarrison Member

    Sep 7, 2008
    San Francisco
    Club:
    West Ham United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    and oh yeah, FO listen up : you call us customers, we call ourselves fans

    we know that we DON'T have to be the former to be the latter

    despite what anyone may try to tell us.

    Tony Harrison press release : I am boycotting the next 5 games in solidarity with the Ultras - it is a protest against your treatment of them.
     
  13. Beerking

    Beerking Member+

    Nov 14, 2000
    Humboldt County
    And s#(?!y fake grass to boot! :D
     
  14. swiftys72

    swiftys72 Member

    Feb 14, 2008
    With that being said do you think the advertising with Charlie the Quakes used, is equal or worse then the tifo? The reason I ask is because this could have gone a completely different way. The fo is being hypocritical. All the fo needed to say is take it down and at worst give them a warning. In my eye the Ultras lead the stadium. Last night was a joke who ever the group is next to the Ultras were embarrassing. As a season ticket hold I think more of us average fans need to get being these guys. If we have more games like last night you can kiss good bye to any advertising and possibly are team!
     
  15. TyffaneeSue

    TyffaneeSue moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 15, 2003
    Upstairs
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    As far as we know, no Quakes fans complained. If the FO found the tifo offensive, they should have acted at the game. We could sort of see the banner (section 103) but couldn't tell that it was Charlie Sheen or what it was depicting. And I am someone who is quick to take offense at anything I perceive as demeaning to women. Even now that I know what it is, I don't see that at all.

    But does one wrong justify another? No, the Ultras aren't required to support the team -- though we sure missed them last night -- but is being an Ultra about the team or about the FO? I wish the Ultras could have risen above their petty hurts over this injustice and participated last night. Your behavior was akin to a player who starts sulking and stops playing because he gets an undeserved yellow card.

    So all that said, can we try asking the FO to reduce the punishment to time already served? The other fans need the Ultras too, and none of us need this kind of discordance among the base.
     
  16. TyffaneeSue

    TyffaneeSue moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 15, 2003
    Upstairs
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    P.S. While we're on the topic of obscenities, a reminder that words commonly deemed to be offensive, scatalogical, demeaning, etc etc will be edited out in accordance with the TOS.
     
  17. darkstar10990

    darkstar10990 Member

    Jun 26, 2007
    Bay Area
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I really dont understand the comparison between the Quakes FO using Charlie Sheen in their video and the Ultras banner. To say the banner was okay because the Quakes FO made a video using Charlie Sheen is stupid because the video had nothing innapropriate in it. The same can't be said about the banner.

    And yes I saw security chasing a fan up the stairs at the home opener but I did not see (or even hear about) the woman being tackled by security. From what I remember some Ultras members lit up flares (which are prohibited at Buck Shaw and everywhere else) in the seating area during the first half and ran away from security when they stepped in to stop it. If the tackle on the girl was unprovoked then that's bad on the security's part but I have no sympathy for whoever was running up the section trying to get away after breaking a rule. It's one thing to break a rule but it's another to break a rule and then run away from security. And I remember seeing cops chasing them too.
     
  18. proud smurf

    proud smurf Member

    Jul 30, 2005
    Uranus
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This !

    Let see if tomorrow a fan from Toronto complained because he/she found the new Casbah AMWAY flag offensive,because long time ago he got schemed by AMWAY. so the FO will punish Casbah for it.

    Whats the message here ? any visiting team fan can complain via facebook, twitter.. no matter just complain, the Quakes FO will make sure to punish their own SG even if the FO doesn't personally know the complainer.
     
  19. proud smurf

    proud smurf Member

    Jul 30, 2005
    Uranus
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We should ask the FO to STOP this kind of "special" treatment towards the Ultras.
     
  20. dmaveritas

    dmaveritas Member

    Nov 7, 2010
    San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's interesting that everyone is offended a week after the TIFO was displayed for a mere few minutes. It sounds as though if the one Seattle fan didn't complain, this thread wouldn't exist.

    When I saw the TIFO, I immediately interpreted that it was about a Quakes Charlie Sheen, subjugating the Sounder and Galaxy fans, much like his "family."

    His underwear? Here's Mr. Sheen's complete quote below:
    So really, in context, I have probably as dirty a mind as most of you, and never thought that it was sexual in nature. No profanity, no obscenities, just good hearted TIFO directed at the opponents.

    BTW, speaking of religion and TIFO, have you seen the TIFO at the last Milan derby?
    http://11x2.com/news/735513/milan-fans-giant-banners-depicting-leonardo-as-judas

    I wonder how many complaints the AC Milan "FO" received and how they responded. Did they go overboard? Did they call it blasphemy?

    The is the crux of the problem with the Quakes FO is they're imposing probations and bans left and right on the Ultras with disregard to the FOs own drafted supporters bill of rights. In all cases they have gone overboard.

    It was really difficult to have the ultras be regular fans on Saturday, for themselves, and for the rest of the stadium. That much we can all agree on. It went against the Ultra nature and respect has to be given that they stood firm. Section 109 sounded the same as how section 101 usually sounds.

    Except for that drum... ohhh... that drum... I'm hearing offbeat drumming in my sleep, much like vuvuzelas after last summer...
     
  21. athletics68

    athletics68 Member+

    Dec 12, 2006
    San Diego & San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No the message is that the Quakes received complaints about the Ultras immature, tasteless, offensive banner and acted on it. Was their reaction to the complaints over the top? Probably. But was some sort of sanction justified? Absolutely. Should the team remove the probation? Yes, but I'd suggest instead of no Tifo they rather sign off on any Tifo the Ultras bring in before the game for at least the duration of the 5 game time frame to ensure the Ultras understand what they did wrong and bring their Tifo back to the more tasteful displays they've used in the past.

    As for any Ultras feeling slighted because security went after them for using flares... again, no sympathy from me. Lighting flares in a stadium made of old wood is one of the most moronic things you guys can do. And to complain because the FO went after the offending party and punished them without any appeal is also moronic. You break the rules, you get punished... period. Next time don't break the rules by lighting flares. Don't get me wrong the Ultras do a lot of great things for the team and the rest of the fans, but that doesn't give them carte blanche to shirk the rules...
     
  22. krudmonk

    krudmonk Member+

    Mar 7, 2007
    S.J. Sonora
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Have we clarified what "probation" is in this case? No elaborate tifo? No flags or banners at all? No standing and yelling of any sort?
     
  23. dmaveritas

    dmaveritas Member

    Nov 7, 2010
    San Jose
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    LOL... did you watch the RSL match? There's a reason why no one smelled mj that day.
     
  24. Earthshaker

    Earthshaker BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 12, 2005
    The hills above town
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Professionals in the mental health field have offered the opinion that Charlie has some mental health issues, some suggesting he is bi-polar. So, is it appropriate for the FO to use the sound bites of the mentally ill for their promotion, and then turn around and censor the Ultras for taking a Sheen sound bite and putting it into a picture? I do see this as highly hypocritical on their part.
     
  25. darkstar10990

    darkstar10990 Member

    Jun 26, 2007
    Bay Area
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6iTSAwGo1Y"]YouTube - fire in soccer stadium - Great Britain.[/ame]

    I don't see why not as long as it is appropriate and in good taste, which can only be said for one side of that comparison.
     

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