St. Pauli is the Hipster version of supporting Bayern

Discussion in 'Germany' started by Kampfschwein, Oct 26, 2011.

  1. 96Squig

    96Squig Member

    Feb 4, 2004
    Hanover
    Club:
    Hannover 96
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I think the problem here lies first and foremost with the BKA (German FBI) who failed to monitor those and focus on left-wing terrorism (there are some pretty shocking stories to be told on this, without wanting to dismiss left-wing lunacies a 100%) and islamic terrorism. Blame should also go the politicians, and, to a lesser degree, the media.
     
  2. HSV-Jung

    HSV-Jung Member

    Jun 15, 2010
    Frankfurt
    Club:
    Hamburger SV
    In light of some of the details that have been published in the news now, there was definitely some sloppy policework involved. But I don't think it was because of neglect of the right-wing scene by the authorities. After all, the main reason we can't get rid of the NPD is because you have to assume that half of its members are undercover BKA or BND agents or informers, just like the CPUSA, which has apparently been mostly made up of FBI agents and informers for the last fifty years. Looking at some of the crimes and violence perpetrated by left-wing nuts and the whole autonomous scene, the focus of attention has a serious bias to the right in Germany. Half of the German population over 40 still consider Andreas Baader to be a hero. Although in all fairness I have to say that the police bias is somewhat justified, as contrary to the neo-nazis, the far left idiots have never been guilty of violence against innocent passers-by, unless you happen to be a police officer in riot gear.

    Getting back to the topic: Nice showing from "hip" St. Pauli fans in Rostock the other day. There should be severe penalties against fans from both teams. Those guys are ruining the sport. The DFB should start considering penalties such as the one they issued in Turkey, where only women and children under 12 were admitted to the following games. That way there is no financial loss to the club and the team still gets supported on the pitch. As far as I heard the penalty was considered a huge success in Turkey.
     
  3. Kampfschwein

    Kampfschwein Member

    Jan 3, 2011
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    This is also the type of penalty I was hoping the DFB would impose on Dynamo Dresden.

    Sends IMO a far better message than simply banning the club from the DFB Cup.

    It's a more targeted approach. It also allows such clubs to possibly reach a more family-oriented demographic, otherwise scared off by those jerks. And teaches those a far more valuable lesson: "The show goes on, albeit without you! Mend your ways!"
     
  4. "Eisenfuß" Eilts

    Jul 1, 2005
    In the sun ;)
    Club:
    SV Werder Bremen
    I hope "supporters" of both clubs get punished. The people in the Pauli block for breaking throught the security and using Bengalos with fines and the people from the Rostock block that fired rockets into the Pauli block belong into prison. :mad:
     
  5. Hobo

    Hobo Member+

    Apr 29, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    St. Pauli fans Turbonegro have specific thoughts on Rostock at the beginning of this song.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHcFWcnS94E&feature=related"]Turbonegro - I Got Erection - YouTube[/ame]
     
  6. Alex_K

    Alex_K Member+

    Mar 23, 2002
    Braunschweig, Germany
    Club:
    Eintracht Braunschweig
    Nat'l Team:
    Bhutan
    I admire your dedication to always being the exact opposite of right.
     
    herthabsc repped this.
  7. HSV-Jung

    HSV-Jung Member

    Jun 15, 2010
    Frankfurt
    Club:
    Hamburger SV
    Alex, you are obviously on an agenda on this thread to drive a point across that has nothing to do with soccer. As you appear to have developed a special fondness for my posts I will attempt to respond as concisely as possible in the hope that afterward we can talk about the hipness of St. Pauli again.
    I stand by everything I said in my previous post and I did take the time to read the Zeit article posted by you, as well as many of the comments. Of course every one of those 137 murders is a tragedy and an outrage, perhaps it is even 182 as the Mut gegen rechte Gewalt initiative indicates. I agree with everything the article says with the exception of the conclusions drawn by the author. Some of these cases will certainly have been handled inappropriately by the courts and enforcement agencies and not been given the warrantied amount of public attention. I also believe that particularly in Eastern Germany there are many citizens and local politicians and likely police officials who don't adequately appreciate the depth of the problem of right-wing ideology in their midst and who sometimes try to talk problems away, such as the mayor of Mügeln in Saxony who after the incidents in 2007 appeared to be more concerned with the image of his town than with the occurrences themselves.
    At the same time, police statistics alone will prove that in proportion to the general statistics for violent crime, the relatively low figures for violent crime with a right-wing background (despite all problems relating to definition, there are roughly five times as many murders directly attributable to honor killings alone) the amount of police resources dedicated to these acts is on average very high, because in these cases not only politicians and, contrary to what you say, the media will quickly become involved, but also the BKA and the Verfassungsschutz will likely take an interest. In those cases negligence can quickly kill careers. As indicated in my previous post I believe it is appropriate that an overproportionate amount of resources is dedicated to the German brown scene, not only because they terrorize and kill innocents (as opposed to leftist violence which is mostly "only" directed against other people's property and police offers), but because we as Germans have a special moral and historical obligation to keep very close tabs on this particular evil.
    As far as the media is concerned I think what the author says is purely made up. Any violent crime will automatically get more media attention if there is a brown background. I think all the hubub over the last few weeks is a testament to this. If we were dealing with with "regular terrorists" with a possible connection to some form of terrorist network, do you honestly think there would have been anything close to this amount of media coverage and involvement of all levels of government.
    We have a problem with right-wing extremists and brown violence in Germany, but to suggest the authorities and the media are purposely looking away borders on libel. My two cents.
     
  8. Alex_K

    Alex_K Member+

    Mar 23, 2002
    Braunschweig, Germany
    Club:
    Eintracht Braunschweig
    Nat'l Team:
    Bhutan
    First of all - I'm sorry if it looked like I was picking on you. My fondness for the sarcastic one-liner response sometimes makes my posts read kind of assholish.

    Anyway - and I'll keep it short: you are pretty much dead wrong on this. For example - authorities have, for decades, tried to play down the statistics on right-wing crime. That's not news - it's been widely known for years. If a known Neo-Nazis murders an immigrant, while screaming racist slurs, but afterwards takes 2 bucks the guy had in his pocket this would not be classified as a right wing crime (and I'm not exaggerating, that's how it works - every crime gets one motive attached to it in the official statistics, and whenever they can find a non political reason, as filmsy as it may be, authorities tend to not classify crimes as right wing). Add to this the general incompentence of those assigned to right-wing crimes...

    Politicans are cutting funding for anti-right wing initiatives left and right. Especially the CDU is on a crusade to let everyone know that the true danger in Germany is left-wing terrorism - which frankly, is almost non existent in Germany these days.

    The media usually ignores right wing crimes, or gives them to lines on the back of the paper (depends on the paper/channel, of course - Bild, let's say, is less likely to report than taz). Every Muslim crossing a red light, however, is reported as a possible danger to public safety (I'm slightly exaggerating).

    I'll just refer to this blog on rght wing extremism in Germany:
    http://www.publikative.org/

    The archive goes back years, and there's a wealth of information on there for everyone who wants to keep up. It's run by reputable journalists (the founder works for the Tagesschau) and academics, so it isn't left wing propaganda or anything.
     
    herthabsc repped this.
  9. HSV-Jung

    HSV-Jung Member

    Jun 15, 2010
    Frankfurt
    Club:
    Hamburger SV
    Sorry, I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't want to protect the right-wing scene one bit and not the Springer media either, they have plenty of other faults. But to me Patrick Gensing is a crusader on a mission, his research and reporting may be outstanding, but his conclusions are off.
    Left wing violence is never discussed anywhere, I know Schäuble has commented on this, but I can't see any proof of a CDU agenda there. All the while the left scene is still a problem in Hamburg that has never really been solved since the days of the Hafenstrasse.
    At the same time I can't see any proof in the German media of a "Progromstimmung gegen Moslems" or any reporting that is not commensurate in light of the things that have happened and are happening. But I think on this issue we could bomb each other with articles arguing both ways all day long without coming to an agreement, so I simply respectfully disagree.
     
  10. laasan

    laasan Member

    Apr 12, 2010
    a bit difficult to enforce legally though in Germany, don't you think?
     
  11. 96Squig

    96Squig Member

    Feb 4, 2004
    Hanover
    Club:
    Hannover 96
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Would have been better than banning them outright IMO. Much better. It's kinda easy to see who is older than 16 (and to check the 15 and 14 year olds) and who's a women and who's not.
     
  12. HSV-Jung

    HSV-Jung Member

    Jun 15, 2010
    Frankfurt
    Club:
    Hamburger SV

    Yes, a friend and I have discussed this. There would definitely be a problem with the principle of equal treatment (Gleichbehandlungsgrundsatz) derived from Art. 3 Grundgesetz and and other anti-discrimination law as well as loads of protest from all sorts of people. The question is how much sway the constitution would have in this case. The clubs are private entities and the stadium owners hold domiciliary rights (Hausrecht), so you would likely find it tough to argue for a constitutional right to be admitted to the stadium. I don't see how you could do anything against it, if the DFB and the clubs were really committed to this sanction, mostly as it is commensurate and definitely the more mild option, considering that the only other option would be to have no fans at all.

    Hans Lorenz, the presiding judge of the German Sports Court has discussed the possibilities with 11Freunde magazine. The original article is not available online, but it was discussed here:
    http://www.merkur-online.de/sport/f...uen-urteilin-bundesliga-moeglich-1427932.html
     
  13. Kampfschwein

    Kampfschwein Member

    Jan 3, 2011
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I wish... Yet apparently they don't have the courage to do so.

    I'm not persuaded most such projects are effective. They cannot get at the root-cause of extremism among youths: a lack of direction in their lives.

    My alternative: I think one should invest that money (and a whole lot more) in schools, music schools, sport clubs and other organisations that give youths a full life. A positive and holistic agenda.

    Keep kids busy until five. Lots of sports and extra-curricular activities.

    That's the extremism-busting strategy I advocate.
     
  14. Kampfschwein

    Kampfschwein Member

    Jan 3, 2011
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    They should go for it. In the unlikely event that such a sanction were forbidden by the courts, they can return to Plan B and ban the club.
     
  15. Alex_K

    Alex_K Member+

    Mar 23, 2002
    Braunschweig, Germany
    Club:
    Eintracht Braunschweig
    Nat'l Team:
    Bhutan
    It's a fact that they did - however, they took it back 5 days ago (one day before my post, and something I didn't know when I posted yet) due to the sudden media attention.

    The sum of money spend on those initiatives is positively tiny. The annual federal budget for those initiatives (without the originally planned cuts) is 22 million euros. The city of Braunschweig alone spends 16 million Euros a year on maintaining schools (and I mean the buildings, not teacher salaries or stuff like that). With less than a Euro per kid/year you wan't be able to pay for a full life. (yes, you said "and much more" - but this would have to be a LOT more, like 9 figures or so).

    Not to mention that full life stops when the kids head back to their unemployed parents in the projects.
     
  16. Capt.Tsubasa

    Capt.Tsubasa Member

    Nov 20, 2007
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
  17. Kampfschwein

    Kampfschwein Member

    Jan 3, 2011
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    That's what I was referring to. Considering the dubious value of such projects, that funding should have stopped. With or without extremist terrorism in the news.

    22 million would say pay a lot of kids' music lessons and sports club fees.
     
  18. Capt.Tsubasa

    Capt.Tsubasa Member

    Nov 20, 2007
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Oh well, I guess not! :rolleyes:
     
  19. Alex_K

    Alex_K Member+

    Mar 23, 2002
    Braunschweig, Germany
    Club:
    Eintracht Braunschweig
    Nat'l Team:
    Bhutan
    I'm all for giving kids the opportunity to do sports, arts, whatever. But it's just naive to think that this would be a solution, especially on such a small scale. The problem runs much deeper.

    I have people who move or moved in such circles in my extended family. There are people who either are long time unemployed, or work in the most dead end of jobs, because they don't have much hope of ever getting anything half-way decent. People who were at a severe disadvantage from the start because they weren't born into middle class families.

    That's nothing you can fix with weekly volleyball training (not with tiny anti-extremism initiatives either, though). Education that also gives people a proper moral framework, but also major changes in society and economy, that's what you need.

    And even then - it's not as if all extremists, including neo-nazis, are from poor backgrounds. One of the recently discovered killers was the son of a university professor after all.
     
  20. Alex_K

    Alex_K Member+

    Mar 23, 2002
    Braunschweig, Germany
    Club:
    Eintracht Braunschweig
    Nat'l Team:
    Bhutan
    Well... with a topic like this... you just shrug, say "sure, that ain't exactly news" and move on.
     
  21. laasan

    laasan Member

    Apr 12, 2010
    I'm no lawyer, but I don't think that's how law works. businesses are private entities, that doesn't mean they can discriminate against anyone.
     
  22. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Rangers
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    It's true that when Pauli is in the Bundesliga 1 it attracts the kind of tossers who like to drive their Porsche 4x4 right up to the stadium and park it on the first footpath they can find.

    However Pauli & Karoviertel have tended to lack the latte drinking hipsters you see say in Berlin - it is still more an Astra drinking crowd and many of the fans are older now.

    In general this area suffers from Culture tourism and Pauli is no exception
     
  23. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Rangers
    Germany
    Jul 23, 2004
    Karo Viertel
    Club:
    FC Sankt Pauli
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    What do you make of the recent troubles?

    It seems to have settled down for now.
     
  24. TASDD

    TASDD Member

    Jul 2, 2014
    the hypocrisy of St. Paulis image is or was totally ridiculous for me.. while the clubs marketing departure seems very clever, the supporters were more annoying when claiming their club is so uncommercial while you can buy merchandizing articles of St. Pauli literally everywhere, be it a fun fair in Stuttgart or a gothic festival in Chemnitz.. another claim is that the supporters culture is so creative but all their chants were copied..
     

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