Spain or Brazil? Who will bounce back quicker?

Discussion in 'BigSoccer Polls' started by Guigs, Jul 8, 2014.

?

Who will bounce back quicker?

  1. Spain

    62.9%
  2. Brazil

    37.1%
  1. Deep Pal

    Deep Pal Member+

    Jun 19, 2013
    India,Kolkata
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    India

    Thanks for the reply . But if you imply that there has not been a drop in quality of talent , I would beg to differ with you . Brasil may have talented players playing at top clubs but no way are they world class , only Neymar , Silva and to a certain extent Oscar are world class .

    The last squad participating in the WC which had world class players literally in all positions was in 2006 , there was a significant drop in quality in 2010 and 2014 showed the worst Brasilian side in recent times , hoping to win it all pining their chances on a 22 yeard old .

    I am not fully aware of all the players you mentioned but I guess they are not good enough to land as big a tournament as the WC based on their talent alone . And it is high time Brazil produced a world class striker , they have become much like Portugal in the last 2 WC-s which is a lot to say considering all the imperious no 9s we have seen over the years donning the canary yellow .

    All I hope to see is a compact Brasilian team adept at modern tactics , playing to their traditional strenghts , capable of switching formations and not relying solely on talent but a system to deliver the hexa , I really do hope Brasil comes back stronger because without Brasil at its best , football loses a lot of its sheen .
     
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  2. Deep Pal

    Deep Pal Member+

    Jun 19, 2013
    India,Kolkata
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    India
    P.S. : I fervently hope Brasil do not win anymore Confed Cups .
     
  3. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    See if you can find TV ratings for the 2005 Confed Cup, I couldn't find it, but I did find the 2013 and compared to Spain, Spaniard posters are always saying how unimportant that tournament is for them.

    Yet in 2013 10 million watched the finals in the middle of the night while 13 million watched the World Cup finals during peak hours of programming.

    I bet the German numbers would be very similar...
    It doesn't matter now that your theory goes out the window.. the starting field for CONMEBOL is always smaller because UEFA gets to send 3x the amount of teams to the tournament.

    I've already posted the top qualifying teams from Europe and how they did in previous cups, There has been teams from Europe going into the semi-finals that if Europe only had 4-5 slots they wouldn't even have qualified to the World Cup... That shows strength in numbers, not depth..
    yes 10 teams reached the round of 16... which was 70% of the teams entered from Europe qualifying, while CONMEBOL qualified 75% of their entries in the tournament to the knock-out stages.. still better than UEFA statistically, but strength in number eventually wins. This Cup CONMEBOL qualified 83% of their teams to the knock-out rounds... much better than UEFA's best tournament ever with 70%.

    That's the problem, just in this World Cup alone, Italy and England weren't superior to Costa Rica... And last two times Italy was grouped with Mexico the CONCACAF team topped the group. And you have many more instances of European top teams falling in the first stages of the World Cup to African, Asian or Concacaf nations

    France in 2010
    France, Portugal 2002
    Spain, Belgium, 1998
    Not to mention the times the CONCACAF, CAF, AFC or CONMEBOL teams topped the groups.

    WIKIPEDIA! !!! OH WOW!!
     
    ihatewaiting4years repped this.
  4. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    For the Brazilian way of life?
     
  5. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    GK - Dida
    RB - Cafu
    CB - Lucio
    CB - Juan
    LB - Roberto Carlos
    CM - Emerson
    CM - Ze Roberto
    AM - Kaka
    AM - Ronaldinho
    CF - Adriano
    CF - Ronaldo

    when you compare those players by the age and accomplishments of the current players... Current players are actually right on Par.
    GK - JC - more accomplished than Dida
    RB - Dani Alves - has a lot more individual accomplishments and honors than Cafu, best at his position 4 years
    CB - T. Silva - considered best at his position Lucio never got close to that
    CB - D. Luiz - you can say it's a toss up here, but I prefer Juan... to say Juan is world class is a push though
    LB - Marcelo - Roberto Carlos at the age Marcelo has now just got a second place in France while having less honors at club
    CM - Luiz Gustavo - Ze Roberto is pretty much the same player
    CM - Paulinho - I was never a fan of Emerson, at the same age he had just got transfered from B.Lev to Roma
    AM - Oscar - Kaka at the age of Oscar just got transfered to AC. Milan and didn't even have start for the NT.
    FW - Neymar - Ronaldo is one of the few that can compare to Neymar, but Neymar has more honors while Ronaldo has more European individual awards.
    FW- Fred - Can we really compare him to Adriano? Adriano stopped playing how long ago??
    FW - Hulk - Ronaldinho clearly a better player here

    players I mentioned are not connected with CBF well enough, politics have more to do with anything else. Fred didn't get callups because he wasn't friends with Mano Menezes for example, while Mario Fernandes refused call ups after he was paid a visit by CBF cartola.

    When Brazil wins the Hexa, it will be the same exact way they've won the past 5 times, talent will take over and win a tournament.

    Good thing about short tournaments, you can win it with talent Alone... But it doesn't help Brazil's cause to depend only on talent. Things though. will never change.
     
    ChinoMafia repped this.
  6. Lemonade

    Lemonade Member

    Jun 29, 2010
    WC 2014 Final..............GER-ARG.....................32.70m
    WC 2014 Semi Final.....NED-ARG....................19.52m
    WC 2006 Semi Final.....GER-ITA.......................29.66m
    Wetten, Dass...? 2005(A German game show).....14.87m
    FCC 2005 Semi Final...GER-BRA......................12.77m
    FCC 2005.....................GER-ARG......................13.09m
    Women WC 2011........NOR-BRA.......................6.20m



    links are in German but you should get the gist of it.
    FCC slide to 6/10 and 7/10
    WC 2014
    WC 2006
     
    schwuppe repped this.
  7. Lemonade

    Lemonade Member

    Jun 29, 2010
  8. Emperor Adriano

    Emperor Adriano Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Utica NY (the refugee city)
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Yep. I'll address you tomorrow, I need a little time to think about it.
     
  9. Emperor Adriano

    Emperor Adriano Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Utica NY (the refugee city)
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    No talent??? Very harsh for a country that exports as many players as Brazil and the fact it has a top 5 domestic lg without that champions lg money fueling it/lack of foreigners. Carpegiani invented the 4-2-3-1/4-5-1, but he can't hold a job because he's crazy, yea he can coach and will always try something new but did you notice his last stint at Ponte? It was a circus... To manage the Selecao it takes a special man with an incredible temperament. It has to be a top 5 hardest job in sports so idk how you really prepare for it no matter where you coached b4. Some of the tactics in the Brazilian lg are frustrating no doubt, but I see some young coaches coming up who have different views and who have potential to develop.
     
  10. Deep Pal

    Deep Pal Member+

    Jun 19, 2013
    India,Kolkata
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    India
    Man however hard you try to extrapolate and deduce that the current crop is as talented as the one in 2006 then you are living in fool's paradise .

    to compare Alves to Cafu is a sacrilege , and I won't even get to an argument here .

    iirc Ronaldo had already won the Ballon d' Or by the age of 21 , so comparing him to Neymar is again a glaring example of how you are living in denial . And while Oscar at 22 might hold some promise I think majority of the people without any bias can vouch that he will never reach the heights of Kaka .

    Ronaldo , Kaka , Ronaldinho were all generational players , Oscar is not one of them and will never be one , there are a number of non Brasilian players of his age ( Reus , Hames , Isco ) who are far better than him at the moment and has much more upside . And seriously comparing Fred to Adriano ? Adriano at that time was one of the hottest strikers in Europe coming off an excellent season , Fred's performance has to be the worst I have seen of any player in any of the WC I have seen till date , it just shows how deep you are in denial , probably your ego is blinding you , it is ok to accept that other countries have better talent at the moment than Brazil , it is this basic change in perception that needs to be implemented first , that Brazil is not the best in terms of organization nor in talent at the moment and use this in a positive way to strive and reach that goal.
     
  11. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    all WRONG perception and BIASED comment!

    RB: Cafu played for a smaller club Roma so less wining but >> clumsy Alves
    LB: Carlos was twice 2nd in Balldon Dor >>>> Marcello ...WHO? a King of Yellow Card in Liga???
    CB: Lucio was more skillful than Thiago Silva, but Thiago is more solid ... (well exposed vs Netherland) EQUAL
    CB: David Luiz more skillful than Juan but Juan more reliable (same as above) EQUAL

    CM: Zeberto can TEACH Gustavo how to control and passing balls
    CM: Emerson was betetr DM than Paulinho who often lost in the crowd
    AM: Kaka was twice talent of Oscar (in playmaking and passing)
    AM: Ronaldinho could teach Hulk how to do dribble and thrupass, flick pass

    FW: Ronaldo was 3 times a Nemar now in scoring and creating assists (at same age was ABSOLUTE best of world 2 WPOY + 1.9 Ballon dors, while Neymar is still PROVING in Europe

    FW: Adriano could TEACH a clumsy Fred how to shoot and score goals (Adriano was best FW of UEFA and MVP of copa/confed 05)

    ==============================================
    So over all,
    WC2006 Brazil team quality = 8.0 >> Brazil WC2014 = 7.25
     
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  12. Deep Pal

    Deep Pal Member+

    Jun 19, 2013
    India,Kolkata
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    India
    Agree with everything apart from the last sentence , Brasil WC2014 is more 5.5/6 .
     
  13. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY

    You're doing the same mistake you always do. Yes, the 2006 team had more big names but many of them were past their prime. In his prime, Ronaldo was 3 times the player Neymar is now. But not in 2006.
     
    jerrito repped this.
  14. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    Well, they are not hosting the next World Cup so if they want to play in and win the 2017 Confed Cup they have to earn it. No more gifts!
     
  15. Deep Pal

    Deep Pal Member+

    Jun 19, 2013
    India,Kolkata
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    India
    Still a far far better team than this horror .
     
  16. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    did you read or you jump as you always do?
    Did Guig even mentioned WC2006 team? NO ... he just compared to past decade
     
  17. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    back to the topic ...
    I hate to say this ... but Spain NT will have bigger chance to bounce back than this Brazil
     
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  18. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    He was responding to a post about the 2006 team.
     
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  19. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Spain won two straight European U-21 Championship and two out of the last three U-19 championships. They have the talents to go through.
     
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  20. dna77054

    dna77054 Member+

    Jun 28, 2003
    houston
    I think the Euro is probably stronger, mainly because it is taken more seriously than the Copa due to the length of Conmebol WC qualifiers. Historically it was probably also stronger due to stronger teams in the past, but things change, and to judge the current strength of a Confed by the number of teams that made a WC semi is ridiculous. Many of those Euro teams were one and done, never to matter again. Turkey playing a Euro in 2016 does not make the tournament better because they had one good WC run 14 years ago and have done nothing since, same for Bulgaria, Croatia, etc... Also the second tier South Americans have really stepped up their games recently. Chile and Paraguay have been excellent in recent WCs, and imho this Colombia team will be around for a while now that they have their sh*t together and a good coach. I wonder if they will keep Pekerman. How much money would you put on Turkey, Bulgaria, or Hungary defeating Chile or Colombia today?

    Also concerning the semis, for quite some time South America had at most 4 teams in the WC, so
    2 non-Bra, Arg, whereas Europe sent many more second tier teams, sheer weight of number means they are/were much more likely to have teams catch a golden generation, lucky draw, or good breaks. Remember Bulgaria 94 also had Greece 94. Turkey 02 also had Slovenia 02.

    Here is a different perspective, in WC2010 and 2014 Conmebol advanced 10/11 or 91% of their qualifiers to the second round and 7/11 or 64% of their teams to the quarters. For Europe those numbers are 12/26 or 46% for advancement and 7/26 or 27% for the quarters. The very elite of Europe did make the semis and win the tourney, but most of the teams they sent were poor to mediocre. Bulgaria making the semis in 94 did not mean a thing to the 54% of the Euro teams eliminate in the first round in 2010 and 2014.

    Now lets apply this to the most recent and upcoming Euros, tournaments in which at least 66% of the participants were NOT good enough to reach the second round of the most recent WC. Not exactly a stellar field. Decades ago, yes, when Europe's second tier was far ahead of the rest of the world, but that has not been the case in the past decade.
     
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  21. theblake30

    theblake30 New Member

    Jul 21, 2014
    I feel like Spain is in a better situation at this point. Yes, Neymar is good, but the re-hiring of Dunga doesn't really push them forward in the way that they needed.
     
  22. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    agree that's what I see too ...

    Sadly for a very first time that Brazil are kinda SHORT in youth talents (in number and also in quality)
     
  23. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    ... if so I owed you an apology :thumbsdown:
     
  24. ihatewaiting4years

    Apr 29, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Very fair post. The gap between 2nd tier Euro teams and South American teams has closed. I'd argue that the 2nd tier South American teams are better than their European counterparts. If not for the unlucky draw, we very easily could have had 4 or 5 South American teams playing in the Quarter-Finals. Could have had 3 South American teams in the SF. This is impressive considering the major numbers and financial advantage that Europe has over South American. This giant confederation of 54 teams has needed to win 3 World Cups in a row just to have 1 more than a small confederation of 10. On paper the Euro is going to look more important because we are a bigger confederation and have more names participating in our tournament. Copa America is just as competitive and maybe even more so than our tournament due to the small amount of teams participating in it. It's very possible that next year Chile, Uruguay, and Colombia could all be drawn into the same group. It's not easy winning the Copa America. I don't know if it is right to rank one tournament above the other. Both are difficult to win and IMO are equal. Of course both sides will try to claim superiority over the other and that's fine I guess for the sake of an entertaining discussion. To be honest I find it impressive that one nation (Brazil) nearly has half the World Cups that all of Europe does, despite Europe having more money, members, higher quality academies, etc. Quite impressive.
     
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  25. Dmnk

    Dmnk Member

    Jul 27, 2014
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Spain won them because we don't send our best eligible talents to these tournaments. :cool:
     

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