Spain or Brazil? Who will bounce back quicker?

Discussion in 'BigSoccer Polls' started by Guigs, Jul 8, 2014.

?

Who will bounce back quicker?

  1. Spain

    62.9%
  2. Brazil

    37.1%
  1. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    Worthless to who? Because clearly not to the players... World Cup was a worthless trophy until the 1966 in England when it became prestigious since England (powerhouse at the time) won the tournament... that's 36 years after it Started. Confederations Cup and it's current format of every 4 years has started in Germany... 8 years ago...

    CA and EURO have exactly the same meaning, to Europe EURO is important and they couldn't care less about the CA. To S.Americans CA is important, and they couldn't care less about the EURO.

    clearly you're European if you're putting the EURO as #2

    The confederations cup are not missing any big teams... they have THE BEST teams each confederation can offer... If you can't qualify for it.. you are not good enough, that simple.
     
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  2. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    You realize that by the age of 22, the only player you mentioned that had a better career than Oscar is Ronaldo right?

    While none of them by the age of 22 had better careers than Neymar...

    You do realize you're comparing it completely out of context of time right? Oscar as of right now has had better careers than.. Zico, Falcao, Socrates, Rivaldo and Romario.

    Falcao played for Botafogo-SP (fourth division team)
    Zico was not included in the NT and had just had his breakout season
    Socrates was not yet a Professional
    Rivaldo just got transferred to Palmeiras
    Romario had just started his professional career
    Ronaldinho won the WC but was unwanted by his club PSG..

    people are comparing careers that are already over with a player whose career JUST started.
     
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  3. ChinoMafia

    ChinoMafia Red Card

    Jul 9, 2014
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls

    Copa America is not third behind the Euros, only a euro centric fan would say something like that. Copa America is as big and as prestigious as the Euros are.
     
  4. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    lol The confederations cup were missing the top 3 teams and 7 of the 8 quarter-finalists from the 2014 World Cup.

    PS... Brasil did not qualify for the 2013 confed cup.
     
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  5. Sifrit

    Sifrit Member

    Mar 15, 2014
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Maybe the perception is different in South America but (like the previous German poster mentioned) no one cares about it in Germany at least. It is not considered as an important competition.

    The Euros are objectivly better than the Copa America because they have better teams as proven by the teams' results at the WC.

    There are only 2 teams from CONMEBOL who've made a WC final in the last 20 years: Brazil and Argentina. UEFA has 5 different teams who've made it to a WC final in the same time period: Italy, Germany, France, Spain and the Netherlands. For semi-finalists CONMEBOL only has one more team with Uruguay while UEFA has an additional 5 teams with Sweden, Bulgaria, Croatia, Turkey and Portugal. That's 3 different CONMEBOL teams good enough for the WC semi-finals in the last 20 years but 10 UEFA teams.

    In fact the only CONMEBOL team outside of Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay that ever made it to a WC semi-final was Chile in 1962. That's a total of 4. UEFA had 18 different semi-finalists in the history of the WC.

    You can say that you don't care about the Euros of course. But that doesn't change the fact that they are a higher quality competition than Copa America.

    Yes, I'm sure Tahiti is superior to the 3 WC semi-finalists Argentina, the Netherlands and Germany all of whom didn't participate in the Confederations Cup. The Confederations Cup only exists to test if the stadia and infrastructure of the host country are ready for the World Cup.
     
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  6. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    not really ...
    At 22yrs old :
    Pele > Ronaldo > Neymar > Zico = Ronaldinho >= Kaka > Romario = Oscar >= Falcao
     
  7. Renato Goulart

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Jun 25, 2014
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I think bouncing back means different things to each of these teams.

    Spain's fiasco was getting eliminated on the group stage. Had they advanced and been eliminated by Brazil in the second round, I don't think anyone would be talking about them having to bounce back from anything. Spain should never be eliminated in the Group Stage of a WC, and I think this was one of those surprises that the WC always holds in store for us. I expect them to bounce back quickly from this. They should cruise through the qualifiers, have a decent showing in the Euro and probably be a top-8 team by the Russia WC. Historically, Spain's placement in World Cups have been between getting eliminated in the R16 and the QF, and there's no reason for us not to expect them to get back to this level. I think getting a championship was the result of one-in a lifetime circumstances, which will not repeat itself in a very long time, as was their elimination in the Group Stage.

    Brazil's fiasco was losing 7-1 to Germany. Had they lost 2-0, this would've been a pretty good cup for them (of course to Brazilians anything but a title is a disaster, but this is a personality issue we have). So if bouncing back means avenging this loss to Germany, most likely it will never happen. This will be just like the loss to Uruguay that our grandchildren will have to carry on for us. However, getting back at being a WC favorite, and contender, I think is very close. Brazil just made it to the top 4. Taking a couple of steps up is a matter of adjusting a few details or getting some lucky breaks (i.e. someone else eliminating Germany before we see them).
     
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  8. Renato Goulart

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Jun 25, 2014
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I disagree that Brazil only got as far as they did because they were hosting. Which of the games Brazil played would have had a different result had they taken place in South Africa or Russia? Playing at home for Brazil is only an advantage if they're dominant (like they were in the Confederations Cup). If they're not playing well, like what happened in the World Cup, being at home works against them. There's simply too much pressure. The 7-1 loss to Germany was only as lopsided as it was because of a complete emotional breakdown by the team. It's clear that Brazil was not on the same level as Germany, but nor are they at a level below the US, Algeria and Ghana, all teams that gave Germany a real game.

    Barring any surprises, Neymar and Oscar should be at the top of their game in Russia at 26 years old. They didn't have much of a supporting cast this year, but if Brazil can put together a team at least on the same level of what they had this year (shouldn't be that difficult), Neymar and Oscar should be able to carry them even farther.
     
  9. PMLF

    PMLF Member

    Jul 20, 2004
    Rio de Janeiro, Bra
    Copa América has also often suffered with weakened teams being selected for the competition, the last edition (2011) was an exception though.

    Another problem is that since the World Cup qualifiers started been played in a league format, Copa América stopped being the best tournament to indicate the strongest South American national team.

    The European Championship isn't more important like some said though, since it's still a regional competition. It does have more prestige and quality than Copa América, although quality will deteriorate with 24 teams, 16 is pretty much ideal for a European competition.

    As for the Confederations Cup, it's a bit like the League Cup, it's not an awful competition (despite lack of prestige) and it's nice to win it, but it's not a big deal to lose it.

    As a Brazilian though, I care far more about the Olympic football (despite age restrictions) than about either Copa América or the Confederations Cup.
     
  10. Roofvogel

    Roofvogel Member

    Jun 17, 2014
    Club:
    FC Groningen
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    European championship being second is a eurocentric argument. The top of Europe right now is slightly better or close to equal to the top of SA. One level below (Colombia, Chile, Uruguay) is arguably better than many traditional European big teams such as Portugal, Italy, and England. Tell me how many big teams Europe has right now? SA has LESS countries.
     
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  11. EDonEnta

    EDonEnta Member

    Arsenal
    Nigeria
    Jun 2, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Spain was eliminated at the group stage of WC98.
     
  12. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    They are two strong steam (still) and having suffered two different cause for the SAME FIASCO results
    - Spain: a team AGING and FULL of TROPHIES - no more hunger + bad tactics (of old winning coach)
    - Brazil; Young hunger but inexperienced that caught slumped with BAD TACTICS (of old winning coach)
     
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  13. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    I wonder what the numbers would be of people watching the Confederate Cup in Germany in 2005 compared to the 2006 WC...

    I'll take a wild guess and say it was pretty damn close.. why!? cause Germany was participating in it... in 3 years you'll eat your words when everyone will be once again in Germany watching the Confederate Cup... Simply because your team's in it..

    So up until 2006 the Copa America was a better tournament right? Because according to your line of thinking that must be it.

    more teams playing for it, more chances of them making it. How many top qualifying teams in Europe have fallen on the first round of the world cup? Because I've done that math before and it's not pretty... Lots of 1st place qualifying teams from Europe get knocked out. While teams that if UEFA didn't have 3 times the slots as CONMEBOL wouldn't even qualify go on to get a third place match...

    You can say that you don't care about the Copa America of course. But that doesn't change the fact that they are a higher quality competition than the Euros.
    [/quote] Italy and Spain are superior to Germany and the Netherlands at the time, or they would have been participating. Also Uruguay was superior to Argentina at the time.. or Argentina would have been participating.

    Care to bring up other teams so we can check to see if they were superior to the teams in the Confederations Cup back in 2013? Guarantee you'll lose this little game every time.

    We never needed a test of the stadiums etc before the WC, this only started in 2005, and it wasn't to test anything, people started calling it a dress rehearsal because they felt like it. Fifa took over the competition because they saw an opportunity to make tons of money on it. The only people that don't care are the people that don't qualify for it.

    The people that qualify on the other hand.. they care and they watch... the neutrals that love football, they care and they watch...

    If you tell me you had 0 interest on a Brazil vs Spain confederate final, a game which everyone wanted to see since 2008, then you sir are no lover of the world of football but only of your national team, which is ok I respect that.
     
  14. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    lol the top 3 teams from the 2014 world cup couldn't even qualify for the confederations cup.

    They couldn't win the Euros or even get second place!!
    they couldn't win the Copa America lawlawlawl
    and they couldn't even win the previous World Cup, they actually all lost that World Cup!!

    lawl bad teams are bad! they needed to wait until the best teams get worse in order to participate!!

    PS... France did not qualify for the 1998 World Cup
    PS... Argentina did not qualify for the 1978 World Cup
    PS... England did not qualify for the 1966 World Cup
     
  15. Lemonade

    Lemonade Member

    Jun 29, 2010
    Are you really trying to sell the FCC > Euro myth again, after you got debunked in the final thread?
     
  16. Deep Pal

    Deep Pal Member+

    Jun 19, 2013
    India,Kolkata
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    India
    dumb post .
     
  17. Deep Pal

    Deep Pal Member+

    Jun 19, 2013
    India,Kolkata
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    India
    I do not see Brasil being real contenders for the next World Cup ( they will be always contenders because of their rich heritage though ) . The Brasilian team for the next world cup will be a fairly young one , and it is more or less a norm that a team with a proper balance of experience and youth goes far in the tournament .

    If I am not wrong then there are only 3-4 ( Neymar , Oscar , Willian , Marcelo) players from this team who would be in the team for the next WC , and barring any major injury Neymar and Oscar seems to be undisputed starters . That leaves 9 players to be filled in for the starting 11 ( ideally it should be a mix of 3-4 29-32 year old , 4-5 in the 26-27 yr range and 1-2 in the 22-24 year group ) . That means a core of around 7-9 players who are now in the age group of 22-25 . Are there really any world class talent in this age group right now , bar Neymar and Oscar ?

    Also a totally new defense needs to be formed. I do not think it is a wise thing to start the pair of David Luiz and Thiago Silva again in the WC , imho David Luiz is too old and erratic to correct the defensive flaws in his game , and it would be a recipe for disaster if Silva who will be around 34 at that time to shoulder the responsibility of the defense all by himself .

    Brasil should use the 2018 WC as a means of trying out younger players similar to what Germany did in 2010 and allow them to play without any pressure of being champions . That would give them the much needed experience to excel at the highest level and prepare themselves to have a go at the 2022 WC with far greater intent .

    This should be a project to reinstate Brasil back to its glory and not look for a quick fix and win and do away with all the malaise that is there in Brasilian football at the moment . Also , Brasil has never been about tactics and strategies , it always has been about talent , this perception needs to change and a somewhat middle ground needs to be taken , if Brasil are to challenge seriously for the WC in 2018 it would be on the basis of individual talents like Neymar , Oscar - this reliance on talent needs to go , and they need to find a system which will serve them for years without being over reliant on individual talent .
     
  18. Renato Goulart

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Jun 25, 2014
    Houston, TX
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    It's true that a lot of Brazilians are craving for that ever elusive gold medal, but I grew a bit tired of the Olympic Soccer tournament. Today my order of priority is:
    1. World Cup
    2. Copa America (at least until we match Uruguay's number of titles)
    3. Confederations Cup
    4. Olympics (let the Cameroons, Mexicos, and Nigerias keep their gold)

    I think both the Copa America and the Confederations Cup got a boost in importance now that they have a regular, predictable schedule. Like another poster said in a different thread, the Confederations Cup is a bit like the World Club Cup. It's great to win it, but if you qualify, it's probably because you already won the Libertadores (unless you're hosting), so the major conquest is already in the bag.
     
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  19. PMLF

    PMLF Member

    Jul 20, 2004
    Rio de Janeiro, Bra
    Brazil have all been about tactics and strategies too, some innovations like the back four started or became popular because Brazil used/developed it.

    The problem is that nowadays Brazil's managers are clueless and outdated, and since there is no talent either, we end up in the 1-7 kind of situation.

    In other times there were both the tactical knowledge and the talent.
     
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  20. Sifrit

    Sifrit Member

    Mar 15, 2014
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Why are you talking only about 2014? I've made a general statement about both competitions. It's a fact that Chile only ever made it to a WC semi-final in 1962. Other than that it's Brazil, Argentina and recently Uruguay again. No other team from SA has ever achieved anything at the WC.

    Colombia and Chile don't have the results to suddenly be considered better than 4 times world champion Italy, 1 time world champion England and 2 time WC semi-finalist Portugal. They have made it out of their groups at WC 2014 while Italy, England and Portugal have not but that doesn't make them big teams. Italy won the WC in 2006. Spain won the WC in 2010. They are not small just because they were eliminated in the group stages this year.
     
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  21. Sifrit

    Sifrit Member

    Mar 15, 2014
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    The Confederations Cup will not suddenly become a prestigious tournament for me because Germany plays in it. In 2017 it will be just as worthless as it was in 2013. If Germany wins it: nice. If not: who cares. I won't have any strong feelings either way because it's a meaningless trophy. I'll watch it of course, just like I've watched the 2013 edition (only the games played by two good teams) because I like football.

    Why? Even before 2006 UEFA had more successful teams than CONMEBOL. CONMEBOL had more WC wins in total but that doesn't matter for the starting field. Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay are the only WC finalists in SA. They are also the only WC semi-finalists except for Chile once in 1962. Europe had 18 different WC semi-finalists even in 2006.

    UEFA having more teams is the reason for them having more depth and that results in more quality teams. But if teams from SA other than Brazil, Argentina and Uruguay were good enough they would have had some results in the WC as well. There have been 20 WCs now and Colombia, Paraguay, Bolivia, Ecuador, Peru und Venezuela have never achieved anything. Chile has one WC semi-final in 1962 and that's it.

    Why are you reducing everything to the 2014 WC which was held in SA? Because it makes their teams look better? You can't take such a short time frame and ignore everything else. At the WC 2006 in Germany 10 UEFA teams reached the round of 16. These are the results of home field advantage. You'll see it again in Russia 2018.

    It's not about Italy and Spain being superior to Germany and the Netherlands. It's about Germany , Argentina and the Netherlands being superior to Japan, Mexico, Nigeria and especially Tahiti. Yes, I understand that the Confederations Cup has the champions of each confederation playing against each other. But the result is a weak starting field because not all confederations are equal. What's the point of such a competition then?

    And yes, it is just a rehearsal for the WC. See also Wikipedia:

    "Since 2005, the tournament has been held in the nation that will host the FIFA World Cup in the following year, acting as a rehearsal for the larger tournament."
     
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  22. PaulieJay

    PaulieJay Member

    Sep 10, 2013
    Iowa, United States
    Club:
    Wolverhampton Wanderers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The FCC has gained a lot of prestige in the last couple cycles. Look at the rosters that were selected, it's not like guys were missing out and on vacation, and in 2013 EVERYONE took their absolute top team. It's one of the three big inter-continental competitions that exist, and teams are certainly beginning to take it quite seriously, it's certainly not the Club World Cup.
     
  23. FutbolCoachOnline

    FutbolCoachOnline New Member

    Jun 21, 2014
    Worldwide
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Australia
    Spain for sure. I thought they played really well against Australia and I think Casillas cost them an early exit unfortunately.

    Brazil is a train wreck, they have a lot of deep soul searching to do. It's just incredible how they came apart. You don't recover from that humiliation overnight but it's sad to see such a futbol superpower humiliated and I hope they can dig their way out soon.
     
  24. Guigs

    Guigs Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Club:
    Vasco da Gama Rio Janeiro
    this team was really young

    yes they were left outside of the world cup call up because they are not in the Felipao family among other issues.
    Players like Dede, Miranda, Rever, Gil are better than David Luiz, Dante or Henrique.
    Mario Fernandes, Danilo, Alex Sandro are all better than Maicon or Dani Alves
    Jefferson is our best GK and was at the bench.
    These are all defenders not called because of outside of the pitch issues.

    They already did that between 2010 and 2014, but they got rid of a bunch of players along the way after they failed at Copa America, and then lost the Olympics, instead of accepting defeat and progressing with the players. We have so much talent though we can replace players at all times and still put up a team that will get the tag of favorite of the WC every cycle.
    The malaise is not for now, you guys are experiencing this from the outside and see the obvious reasons why it is the way it is, reality is that this is the Brazilian way of life, with our politics, our work, our schools, our football clubs, our construction projects and everything else we do.

    Brazil gets by in football on pure talent, and brazilians get by in life by trying to take advantage of the person standing next to them. Hard to understand for outsiders, but it's true.
     
  25. Emperor Adriano

    Emperor Adriano Member+

    Jun 17, 2009
    Utica NY (the refugee city)
    Club:
    Santos FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    What's up with the generalizations ?
     

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