Soccer vs. other team sports

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by sam_gordon, Oct 4, 2018.

  1. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Youth sports have declining participation since 2008. Why? Part of it HAS to be chalked up to the lack of education/learning by youth athletes.
     
  2. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The fact that you don't think money is there is shocking.

    When Japan opened their pyramid, they had 100 applicants, immediately. That would almost double the total amount of pro teams in the US with just that number. US is one of the only countries in the world that only has teams in 2 divisions. It's not because there's not interest, it's because of the joke Professional League Standards.

    You can buy teams all over the world for $5-10 million any year. In the US, it's $7m to have the "rights" for USL and $150m to have the "rights" for MLS. Overseas, that's for everything, team, stadium, etc. Here, you get a paper saying you are an investor/operator.

    Every year, more American investors continue investing in international club soccer.
     
  3. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    True. If kids aren't learning, they aren't developing.

    Notice it didn't say it was because they lacked curriculum? But, what does curriculum provide, potential to teach and learn. If only 31% of coaches have any skill or tactics training, of course kids will quit because they don't know how to play.

    If 7 out of 10 kids leave a sport by 13 years old, there's an issue with the sport. How do sports address that? Assumption time here, 7 out of 10 aren't leaving sports that they know how to play, have fun playing it, and are good at it. Yes, there are some that do. No doubt. How can we reach those that quit because they aren't learning, aren't good, aren't having fun? That's what this has been about for me since the beginning.

    If 7 out of 10 shoppers of Wal-Mart started leaving, would one blame the customers, or would they blame Wal-Mart? What would the leadership of Wal-Mart do? Continue doing what they are doing OR make adjustments to keep [and gain] customers?
     
  4. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    SCREW the USSF….I am not there to defend them; I don’t like them; not even sure you how would think otherwise …They will not top-down lead us anywhere, other than up their own asses…

    Hopefully, soccer in this country will thrive and survive in spite of their wrongheaded and misguided direction they insist on moving…if simply leave to its own devises, soccer would be far better off…of allowed to develop and grow organically, we might one day end up with a unique system that actually works for us…
     
  5. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is exactly what I've said from the first post I made in the thread:

    I don't like the USSF. I've made that known in numerous posts. But, they COULD do so much more. Exactly what I've said too. There's so much good that COULD come from the Federation. Many Federations do great for development and education. That's exactly where things can change in the US with soccer. If they could initiate strategy to develop organically (promotion/relegation).

    They could lead top-down and really give the opportunity for grassroots bottom-up development.
     
  6. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    But baseball, football, and basketball coaches, by and large, do have the skill and knowledge to properly train the next generation, yet those kids are dropping out as well…

    I don’t really think is the lack of skills or knowledge transfer that is causing kids to drop out…

    I do agree, the lack of fun, is probably a factor…just not sure “lack of fun” is necessarily connected to not learning or not particularly any good…

    I think a lot of well-meaning adults (organizers, coaches, parents, etc) are probably to blame for sucking the fun out of these sports…the more organized, the more controlled, the more directed (from on top), the more costly to play, these sports have become, the less fun they have become for the kids involved…very early on, regardless of sport, youth sports becomes very serious business…sure, we all want them to have “fun,” but only in so far that they are developing properly and that we are getting our money’s worth…lets be perfectly honest, very few parents are paying $$$$ at year, or are willing to pay big money, just so their kid has “fun”….

    I am not sure a better development curriculum really addresses the fun factor…and it may actually contribute to the lack of fun, depending on the goal of the curriculum and agenda of the people who produce it…
     
  7. pu.ma

    pu.ma Member

    Feb 8, 2018
    I think what sucks the fun out of the sport is the stress put on the kids by the adults. Whether it be the parent or coach, it can add up and become a grind. And I'm not saying bad parent or bad coach, it's just the investment as mentioned that forms expectations and quite naturally delivers stress to all involved when a player does not perform to those expectations. If there was no money involved (ok, at least a sane amount of money has to be involved) and it was organized in a way to allow players to flow freely up and down levels of play that suits their ability, I'd be 100% behind that.
     
    bigredfutbol repped this.
  8. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is nothing but a grand assumption. There's nothing that legitimizes this statement.

    Another opinion with not much to back that up.

    Another opinion. The fact is "lack of fun" IS a factor, it's not "probably a factor." In fact, it's often the top reason why people quit sport. Of course it's connected. How can it not be?

    I don't golf. I'm not good at golf. I don't have fun at golf. I'm sure golf would be more enjoyable and keep me playing golf IF I was able to be good at golf.

    Of course it depends on the goal/agenda. That's why the curriculum is based around WHAT keeps kids involved and HOW to retain them. Again, how many of the kids are dropping out actually know how to play? Enjoyment in anything revolves around knowing how/what to do. People will quit anything if they don't know how to do it, thus saying they don't enjoy it.

    Yes, it happens that people quit things they know how to do. Yes, people quit things they have fun doing AND know how to do it. But, anyone who has done the research in youth sports, know that a major part of fun/enjoyment is the kids knowing how to play. Is it fun sitting the bench? No. Who sits the bench, kids who can play or who can't play? Who's more apt to quit, the bench sitter or the starter? These are no-brainers.

    The curriculum is no different than what good educators/teachers/administrators do. They want to keep kids engaged, active, and enjoying different subjects. So, they ensure the goal/agenda is as fun as it can be while still learning. This is where quality top-down leadership paves the way. No one [hopefully] truly plans a curriculum to fail or push kids out of the subject (or sport, in this case).
     
  9. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Absolutely, this is another reason why kids quit. The pressure to be overly competitive. A lot of times kids just want to play for fun without the pressures that adults bring (coaches, parents, relatives, etc.).

    There's been several sports trying to engage participation through non-competitive play in a variety of ways. They know it's a way to get interest back into their sport. It's cheaper. It's more local. It doesn't have the competitive nature to it that more expensive, traveling options bring.
     
  10. jvgnj

    jvgnj Member

    Apr 22, 2015
    I think you're underestimating how many local organizations and volunteer coaches in these other sports set player development goals for their seasons and employ some guidelines as to what skills are age appropriate. They don't produce glossy pamphlets or send out press releases, but they do approach each season with a plan. I've seen it in 4 different sports I've coached and I don't think we're unique.
     
    mwulf67 repped this.
  11. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In all my years of working in youth sports, I haven't seen any do this. None. That's experience while living in 4 different states. I constantly talk to many coaches who are active in other states, sports, and they have none. Even most recently, working with two major clubs and I've asked them if they have a specific curriculum they want me to follow while I work with their players -- nothing exists.

    If I'm underestimating it, why does the Aspen Institute report only state 31% of youth coaches receive any skill/tactical training? I'm not saying any of this as my "opinion," it's everything I've done to research, help, and help grow soccer (and other sports, if possible) through the years. The Aspen Institute has more experience and research put in this than any of us and all of us combined. They surely aren't spreading misinformation.
     
  12. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Yes, it is just my opinion…an opinion supported by the fact those sports are multi-generational, deeply culturally entrenched in our society, and that by all reasonable standards produce no shortage of quality talent, up to and including, the highest levels of their individual sports…that critical mass of knowledge and understand appears to be being transferred just fine…or maybe it’s just magic….

    Actually I entire rest of my post is an attempt back up that opinion…dude, you’re really not very good at this…

    I know several kids that have dropped out of soccer rather recently…and it wasn’t because they can’t play (they actually play very well); it’s because they are just as good in football (and baseball and basketball as well)…and in IL anyway, you can’t really play both [in High School]…I am not sure what their enjoyment level is with soccer, but I never got the impression they didn’t like soccer, just the opposite actually…

    Interesting…I suck at golf, yet when I play, actually when I attempt to play, I generally have a lot of fun doing so…I don’t care how good I am or what my 3-digit score ends up being (high score wins, right?)…I just enjoy being with and playing with friends…

    I am not saying knowing how to correctly play isn’t important, nor a worthy goal…I just don’t think there is a direct, one-to-one correlation between knowing how to play and having fun…not unconnected, just not as direct and linked as you do…I think kids can suck, not now how to play well, and still have fun playing…just as I think properly trained and skilled players who have fun playing, may still drop out…

    Make everyone a starter! Holy shit, I think you just fixed soccer in America!
     
  13. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Let me go out on a limb and assume they are only talking about Formal Training…give me the former DIII soccer player Parent Coach over the never played the game, but took a few classes and have a low-tier license parent coach ANY DAY….

    You are not underestimating, so much I as I am not sure you even understand it to begin with...
     
  14. jvgnj

    jvgnj Member

    Apr 22, 2015
    Where did I say anything about coach training? My point is, at best, tangentially related to training coaches. It relates to coaches and programs setting season and multi-year goals and I have seen and participated in it. You can have trained coaches with no overall strategic plan (like many soccer clubs). Not everyone is winging it in the other sports. All these coaches you talk to don't employ a plan for their season? Maybe they should find something else to do with their time
     
  15. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Interesting, my "facts" are the multi-generational, "deeply culturally entrenched" have done a poor job. I look at my hometown, and those communities at where I've coached in just the last 10 years. All football, basketball, and baseball. All have a poor job in developing any of those athletes to even play at a small college level.

    In fact, there's probably been less than a handful of athletes that have gone on to play in all those communities in those "multi-generational" families developing athletes in these sports.

    Kids still leave sports, for a variety of reasons. There's no arguments there. Never has been.

    Yep. Playing with friends is an important aspect to participation. Not part of the discussion.

    You know what makes it even more fun? Knowing how to play. Being better at playing. And still playing with friends.

    I've never ONCE said that kids won't stick with sports even if they don't know how to play. I've even said that kids will still drop sports even if they know how to play.

    It's not THAT hard to understand it. I've given numerous examples. Yet, you fail to even recognize there are correlations. You continue to go with your own unverified opinion over what those who have studied, taught, and published as factual. So strange. Why don't you get published and prove those wrong?

    Assume. Why am I so shocked? Your opinions and assumptions are so accurate. Maybe they should just listen to what you have to say in their studies?

    Never ONCE stated that having any former players is better than having educated parent-coaches. Not once. Maybe you should quit assuming and actually read?

    It's better to have MORE educated coaches instead of less. If we can educate MORE coaches then we can help MORE players. Soccer has this capability more than others because of a more organized structure in place. USSF has failed to actually lead this. Does not mean that clubs, rec leagues, communities cannot do this. The more that players are educated properly, the better they will be in preparation for sport -- any sport. Is that really that off base you really want to continue negating?
     
  16. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Town name and communities please....
     
  17. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've never seen anything you are talking about. None.

    I've seen youth leagues have zero training sessions and only games -- variety of sports.

    Many of these parent-coaches, in any sport, have no backgrounds of "teaching" the sport. How will they know a "plan"? How will they know how to plan? What says their plan is actually accurate for the age group and/or skill levels? This is not something most athletes even know if they grow up in a sport all their lives.

    I applaud your area for doing more. I can only go off my experiences and connections with this, I've never heard these areas doing this.
     
  18. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've been in Ohio, Kentucky, South Dakota, and Kansas.

    I've done camps from Boston to Dallas, and many areas in between. I work with coaches from England, Canada, to the West Coast.

    It's years of experience and conversation. It's research and involvement in sport.
     
  19. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    31% is in regard to formal training, is it not? You have used that stat at least twice now...I, once again, assume you know what its referencing…
     
  20. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Are you saying Ohio, Kentucky, South Dakota, and Kansas does a lousy job in sending kids off to college in football, baseball and basketball…

    Or would you like to be more specific?
     
  21. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What is considered "formal training"? I have no idea what you'd call it.

    Overall, most "training" coaches receive is minimal to begin with, and that's poor too.

    • 32% -- general safety and injury prevention
    • 30% -- concussion management
    • 30% -- effective motivational techniques
    • 29% -- CPR/Basic First Aid
    • 28% -- physical conditioning
    Would you look at this, from Little League Baseball:
    But, curriculum isn't useful. You say so.
     
  22. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I already gave specifics. In the areas that I have had direct involvement, and those that I have connections with. It's not been hard to follow. All these areas are massive football, basketball, and baseball areas. Soccer has a minor presence.
     
  23. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Sorry, must have missed them…those specific towns and communities were again? Thanks….
     
  24. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    #ProRelForUSA
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    I've Been Everywhere Man
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What does it matter? I'm going off your "generational" assumption. I've got the experience, it cannot be negated.

     
  25. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    It matters because you seem to be claiming everywhere you have ever been; every league, club and team, regardless of sport, you have ever seen or experienced has done a lousy job developing players…I think that is vast overstatement and exaggeration; I think its speaks to your credibility…

    Have you heard the term tilting at windmills?
     

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