Soccer vs. other team sports

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by sam_gordon, Oct 4, 2018.

  1. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member

    Feb 27, 2017
    Under the category "strange things I think about"...

    Older DD played travel and (middle) school softball for a number of years.
    DS has been playing travel soccer for about seven years and spent a couple seasons playing travel basketball.

    Soccer (often, not always) does a team "cool down". If nothing else, a jog across the field to clap for the parents. I don't remember ever seeing that in other sports. Game over? Shake hands, coach speech, goodbye.

    With soccer, you keep hearing "development over results". I don't remember hearing that in the other sports we've been involved in.

    So, why?

    Just thought we can talk about the differences on how different sports do things.
     
  2. keeper dad

    keeper dad Member

    Jun 24, 2011
    I think I could come up with quite a number of sports, other than soccer, that an excellent athlete can not just pick up and dominate. Granted most of these are individual as opposed to team sports but it wouldn't change the development over results piece. Off the top of my head I would think wrestling, golf, tennis, diving, figure skating, gymnastics, and fencing have at least as much development over athletic excellence.
     
  3. TheKraken

    TheKraken Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Jun 21, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Traditions like that in soccer come from the old European version of the game. They were thanking their supporters who literally paid for the club's existence. Now athletes think they are doing everyone a favor for just showing up.
     
  4. jvgnj

    jvgnj Member

    Apr 22, 2015
    Cynically, I'd say you keep hearing "development over results" in soccer because it's a marketing tool for pay to play. The term "development" is so overused in soccer it's devoid of meaning at this point. I've coached football, basketball, baseball and softball and in each one I've seen most of the parents involved focus more on teaching skills, equal playing time, moving kids around, etc. than winning but no one is patting themselves on themselves on the back about their development model because we don't have to convince the parents to spend their money with us instead of another group of coaches down the road.
     
    smontrose, mwulf67 and pu.ma repped this.
  5. kinznk

    kinznk Member

    Feb 11, 2007
    I made my son choose between soccer and baseball after 5th grade. There was enough overlap in the seasons that he would end up getting sick a couple of times in the spring due to over exhaustion, he would simply break down. I played baseball growing up and it's my favorite sport. I'm always drawn back to baseball as a fan.

    That said, I am so glad my son chose soccer. I think baseball does some very basic things different than soccer. If little league baseball has the equivalent of an E license it only consists of 2 topics. The first topic is at the 89th minute of a 90 minute time limit, hustle your team out to get on more inning played despite the fact that neither team has a pitcher under the pitch count capable of throwing strikes. The second topic is how to conduct a 30 minute post game meeting down the foul line despite the fact that every parent hustled home from work to grab their kid and take him to the field without eating dinner and the fact it is probably 30 minutes past a good time for a 10yo to go to bed.

    I like soccer. 2 hours in and out. It's great. I'm not sure how my parents slogged through that many baseball games.
     
    bigredfutbol repped this.
  6. StrikerMom

    StrikerMom Member

    Sep 25, 2014
    The cool down drives me nuts! Play hard for 1.5 hours, a pathetic warm down and then go sit.
     
  7. ppierce34

    ppierce34 Member

    Aug 29, 2016
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Especially after practice when we just want to get home. It adds an additional 10-15 minutes (which we dont have to spare) to the night.
     
    bigredfutbol repped this.
  8. pu.ma

    pu.ma Member

    Feb 8, 2018
    Do other sports require player ID's?
     
  9. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    Columbus Crew SC
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    NKY
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've had this chat with basketball and football coaches that I've worked with. Maybe a baseball coach or two, minimal though.

    My takeaway is this: no other sport truly has a "governing body" that promotes (however minor USSF actually does this is another story) "development." Football, basketball, and baseball are mainly singular coach driven, whatever the coach knows the team does. Without a "development" model to actually follow.

    To me, this is a huge disadvantage to some other sports. How can you not have a "curriculum" to gauge baseline abilities off of? Where and what should players be knowing and when they know it? Granted, many soccer clubs don't do that either...but, at least there is some sort of understanding that it does exist. Would anyone send their kids to a school without a curriculum, no. Why would you send your kids to play something where they have no educational standard.

    I won't agree with you here. We see "development" utilized by recreational organizations too, and those require participation fees too. What youth sport doesn't require a "pay to play" model? Even YMCA charges -- and they make a killing off of it too, while utilizing free parents to "coach." So, would you rather pay YMCA to babysit, or pay a club/youth league that will actually utilize the money to teach?
     
  10. ppierce34

    ppierce34 Member

    Aug 29, 2016
    Fort Wayne, IN
    You cant compare YMCA Rec dues to those of a Club. I pay over $2k a year for club soccer. YMCA ( local rec league) is like 60 bucks.
     
  11. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    Columbus Crew SC
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    NKY
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #11 ThePonchat, Oct 5, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
    Never compared any of it. If one wants to claim "pay to play," they all have pay to play. Nothing is free to play in.

    I know YMCA's that cost over $100. My best friend pays $130 (spring) and $100 (fall) for youth baseball -- NO practices, only games (not YMCA, local baseball league). How can one truly "develop" if there's no practices?

    EDIT: The local YMCA where I once worked charges $47 (maximum) for youth soccer. They had around 750 kids (minimum, we had heard 1000 possibly) in it. If all kids are paying full price, they could bring in $35,250 for one season -- free parent coaches, minimal training. The "club" I worked with (called club, but it just wasn't YMCA) had 75 kids when I came to it and charged $175 (average). So, we brought in $13,125 for our fees. Tell me who is the racket out of these two.
     
  12. TheKraken

    TheKraken Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Jun 21, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #12 TheKraken, Oct 5, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
    That is why it is hard to compare baseball to soccer. Baseball is "practiced" by playing games and lots of them. Once kids learn the basics, the rest is mostly ironed out by playing (aside from batting practice and then later on pitching coaches).
     
  13. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member

    Feb 27, 2017
    Right. That's why you never see baseball teams "practicing". :rolleyes:

    Baseball/Softball, Football, and basketball all rely on repetition and muscle memory. You better believe they practice (at least the better ones).
     
  14. dehoff03

    dehoff03 New Member

    Apr 22, 2016
    USA Hockey is a much stronger governing body at “development” at the youth level than USSF. They revamped their entire developmental model back in 2009 and it is trickling down to other sports after impressing the USOC. Small area(sided) games and coach education were some of the cornerstones of the revamp (wonder where USSF came up with their ideas?) They even provide FREE PDF training sessions for different age groups of significant quantity ( approximately 80 sessions for U10) besides actually making it easier to get coaching education.

    On USA Hockey’s homepage you see kids playing hockey. A link for Team USA news is at the bottom of their homepage, and their slogan is “USA Hockey provides the foundation for the sport of ice hockey in America; helps young people become leaders, even Olympic heroes; and connects the game at every level while promoting a lifelong love of the sport.”

    Contrast that to USSF where you see articles about the USMNT and WNT with a couple articles about coaching youth buried after scrolling and scrolling way down the home page. “Welcome to the home of U.S. Soccer, where you can find the latest USMNT and USWNT soccer news, rosters, tournament results, scoring ...


    Which one cares about “development”?
     
  15. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    Columbus Crew SC
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    NKY
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Absolutely not. I played baseball for 13 years.

    Baseball is practiced, a lot. In all the places I’ve been coaching, I’d say baseball is one that may be practiced more than most sports (swimming or gymnastics may trump them all). Baseball pregame...2 hours on the field.

    No sport just requires “learn the basics...iron out by playing.” That’s a huge disservice to sport.
     
  16. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    Columbus Crew SC
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    NKY
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thanks for the insight on USA Hockey. I had no clue about any of it.

    But, USSF didn’t replicate SSG from hockey. USSF has always had input from other countries and their curriculum/educators. It’s changed through the years: Dutch, Belgian, German, etc.

    There’s been tons of free sessions put out by State Associations. But, USSF has largely failed education and curriculum. While the curriculum exists, no one routinely talks about it. It was only developed in 2011. By then, all the clubs (if they had one) have already instituted their own curriculum, so why change it with USSF’s?

    But, these both are light-years ahead of baseball, basketball, and football. There won’t be anything from them anytime soon, why should there be? We already are the top destination for any of those sports and there’s never been a centralization of “development.”
     
  17. TheKraken

    TheKraken Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Jun 21, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You had a much different experience than me. We played way more games than practices. Doubleheaders on weekends plus a game or two during the week sometimes. Tournaments. Never had more practices than games.
     
  18. jvgnj

    jvgnj Member

    Apr 22, 2015
    I don't think you need a central organization putting out a curriculum that looks good on paper and no one follows. I think it's actually counterproductive to force feed a one size fits all approach on a diverse country of over 300mm people. Just because there isn't a central organization in other sports doesn't mean local programs don't implement some sort of curriculum and/or development plan for kids. It's organic. I'd bet the curriculum and development plans put together by my local little league and football programs are more well thought out and actually implemented than the curriculums and development plans of most of the soccer clubs by me that say "development over winning" every third sentence as though it's some amazing insight unique to soccer.
     
  19. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member

    Feb 27, 2017
    Maybe once you get into the season, the number of practices are cut down, but you're going to have a hard time convincing me they're relying on games for the training.

    DS's High School soccer team would have three games during the week and only two practice sessions. Does that mean soccer just relies on games?
     
  20. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    Columbus Crew SC
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    NKY
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Doesn't even have to be a "national" organization.

    I'm sure we all have friends that coach a variety of sports, as well as our own personal experiences within multiple sports. I've yet to experience ANY sport (other than soccer) that actually has a developed "curriculum" or "coaching methodology" that prepares football/basketball/baseball/etc. for even the next year, let alone the next level OR even higher.

    My hometown decided to establish biddy league football at K-3 to prepare kids for 4-8, so they can be prepared for HS football. Guess what they do? Nothing. It's just a new group of dads trying to teach how they think it should be done. It's not even a "centralized" organization from HS down, even though that's why it was established! Football still sucks there too.

    Like I mentioned previously, my best friend's boy is playing local league baseball. They have no training. They only play games. There is no established "curriculum" for anyone to teach anything. I saw them trying to play. It's astonishing how much these kids don't know at their age, and they are expected to pitch, catch, hit, field, etc. without a skill base to do any of it.
     
  21. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    #21 mwulf67, Oct 8, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2018
    Disadvantage? I think those “unorganized” and “unregulated” sports are doing just fine developing talent and creating world class athletes…

    Those other sports have a critical mass of knowledge and understanding for their games that soccer in the US doesn’t come close to…the average volunteer parent coach in this those sports is light years better at teaching fundamentals and understanding their games than most soccer parent coaches…at the paid level, the idea of requiring a coach to be licensed or take a class so they can be taught the “correct” way to train, develop and coach their players and team is an absurd joke…

    Those other sports (Football, basketball, and baseball) survive and thrive in a very capitalistic market place…those markets demand quality and yes, that quality often takes the form of winning, but you can’t win without proper development…

    Soccer, on the other hand, follows a more socialistic model…it “requires” central planning, heavy top-down regulation, and everyone waiting and counting on the latest 5-year plan to fix everything…you have to join the “Party” (for boys it’s the DA) to have any hope of success…

    Not trying to make this political; just pointing out, money drives everything and there is no real money in soccer in the US (relatively speaking)…if there was, things would take care of themselves, like they do on those other sports…

    Popularity creates profit/glory, profit/glory creates competition, competition creates development and innovation, development and innovation creates winning…and winning is the feedback loop to popularity….

    Soccer in US is still struggling with popularity part….
     
  22. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    Columbus Crew SC
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    NKY
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do we really want to talk about athletes? Or is the discussion about the player? Outside of basketball and baseball, we can't compare how football develops as we are the only country that puts it to the forefront.

    One could easily argue that basketball isn't doing a great job in development as the international make-up of the NBA has gotten increasingly international nearly every year.

    Let's look at the top 5 picks in each NBA draft here:
    2018 - 2
    2017 - 0
    2016 - 2
    2015 - 3
    2014 - 3

    That's a large percentage going international. Oh, and 4 of those 5 drafts had the #1 pick as an international player.

    But, yes, we can talk about disadvantages of not having a curriculum/development methodology. If you want to use the few "elite athletes" who make it, then go ahead. I'd rather focus on who we are losing and why. Soccer has some of the largest numbers in participation, but yet, it's still losing players. There's not been more money spent on it than we have recently and it will only increase.

    Agree 100%. So, that's why it is important to have educational opportunities for parents -- something that USSF has failed miserably on.

    I wouldn't say that parents can teach fundamentals better in other sports, but they know enough to get the kids started and confident. The other thing I've noticed personally, "other sports" have a lot more willingness to help coach by someone other than just a parent of a player. I've rarely seen people involved with youth soccer that are independent of that entity.

    None of this has to exist. It exists this way because there haven't been any alternatives. For how many years did "rec" exist and we were able to develop players in every sport? There wasn't the great difference between "rec" and club, it was all just people playing locally in their community -- in all sports.

    Some people wants more than just that somewhat competitive league, so they started another MORE competitive league. And it started to domino into ultra-competitive youth sports. But, it doesn't have to be that way. Parents can opt out, and start doing more on their own. But, why do that? It's much easier to pay someone else to have that responsibility.

    In what way? It's basically the highest participation sport in the US (all ages). It's the third most popular youth sport (behind baseball and basketball). Soccer has nearly 2x the amount of participants as tackle and flag football combined.

    With over 25m people in the US playing soccer, it's a pretty popular sport.
     
  23. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member

    Feb 27, 2017
    Agree 100%. I still feel most adults of "coaching age" (so mid 30s+ generally) didn't grow up with soccer. They grew up with baseball, basketball, and football. So they already KNOW the fundamentals of those sports. They understand the strategy behind the plays.

    I'm starting to run into parents in the soccer world who had played soccer in their younger days, but they're few and far between.

    Speaking of coach licenses (someone brought it up), do other sports "train" coaches like youth soccer does? And (again, someone else mentioned it upthread), why does soccer force you to present player cards each game? I remember having to present birth certificates for kids to play softball and basketball, but they weren't checked each game (unless someone cried foul).
     
    ThePonchat repped this.
  24. ThePonchat

    ThePonchat Member+

    Columbus Crew SC
    United States
    Jan 10, 2013
    NKY
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Licensing rarely exists in other sports. I know US Track & Field offers some, volleyball does too. Other than that, I'm not really aware of any others. Baseball, basketball, and football have always done a good job offering "coaching clinics" or smaller convention-type offerings. It's pretty common to see certain state offerings, county-wide, or colleges offering educational opportunities for those sports.

    Growing up, I never once had to present any form of identification for baseball, wrestling, basketball, or soccer. The whole card system is a joke to me. Once we registered with a league, we never once were verified wherever we went.
     
  25. CoachP365

    CoachP365 Member

    Business Metrics SC
    Apr 26, 2012
    How do you track card accumulation without the player passes then? Joey gets sent off vs NextTown Premier u16b Silver, without the player pass how do you make sure he doesn't play against ThoseCityKids Elite Academy u16b the following weekend?
     

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