What you have just described is less about single entity and more about the Calvinball machinations of the league, which we all admit exist and which does cause consternation. But what if the alternative were, "Peyton Manning doesn't play in your league at all," and he goes and plays in another league? Because, make no mistake, having him in your league is better than not having him in your league. And Dempsey wouldn't be in the league were it not for the machinations. Dem's the breaks. You can be "furious" if you like, but the utilitarian in me says, "your outrage is outweighed by the overall benefit." None of that has eff-all to do with single entity per se. The WHA did that with Bobby Hull ages ago without single entity. And, truth be told, given all the revenue sharing that goes on, the NFL is far more single-entity-like than MLS. If that turns you and other Euros and Europoseurs off, well, sorry. It seems to be working for us. And we're not beholden to you people anymore. If it wasn't single entity, it would be some other bullshit excuse.
Nah man, jfalstaff is right. Rooting for the Revolution, a "fake" "club" that's really just part of the single-entity league, is way less "authentic" than rooting for my EPL team, Liverpool, which is what a True Club should be: part of a diverse portfolio of John Henry's investments along with stocks, bonds, a newspaper, a baseball team, a NASCAR team, and technology companies. You know, community-based.
Threads like this are kind of puzzling to me. Every once in a while, I see non-MLS fans come to the "profound" conclusion that the league is not as popular as the four major American sports leagues, or the top foreign soccer leagues like the EPL. They seem to think they're pointing out a terrible truth that MLS fans aren't aware of. My cousin is a big rugby fan. A thread like this is the equivalent of me telling him "You know, rubgy's not as popular as baseball in this country." He'd probably give me a consufed look, and wonder if I was having some sort of senior moment by pointing out a glaringly obvious fact.
If you then went on to tell him EXACTLY how rugby could not only be as popular, but could surpass baseball in popularity in this country, THEN you'd have the exact discussions we always have.
This was my entire point. These may be rare, but they are common enough and they do impact the perception of the league Now of course there are positives to those moves. If you want to argue that in the grand scheme of things the positives out weigh the negatives I would be happy to listen. But you can't ignore that it does leave a perception that the game is intentionally slanted in favor of certain markets. Also there is a massive difference between the NFL draft with transparent rules and some of MLS' more notorious transfers. If I used the term single entity incorrectly i apologize. I was using the term as a catch all for exactly the phenomenon that you described. The league takes a more pro-active role in player personal and contracts than any other league I know. And while it may only be annoying for you it makes me question the credibility of the league. Wouldn't really care. As a stated in my 2nd example I wouldn't want Richard Scudamore working to bring Ronaldo back to the Premier League with Man United. And if he did I would want John Henry to threaten a law suit. I sure as hell wouldn't want John Henry to be in favor of it because it would help the next TV contract. At this point I am too emotionally committed to Liverpool to just dump them but I sure as hell would want Henry out (and 15 years ago would have made me question my allegiance). Please define. I never know if I should be offended or not. You throw it around like an insult, so what exactly does this mean. . I guess this is the root of the question. Is it ? Is MLS growing (and no debate) because of it's buisness model? Or because the sport as a whole is growing? (would be fascinated to compare MLS TV ratings in 1997 to those of the Premier League in 97) You seem to know peoples thoughts better than they do. How are you so sure? The fact that the league has felt like a marketing demonstration more than a sports league since it's founding (yes it has improved but the old never get a 2nd chance to make a first impression still holds, on top of the fact that some of those factors are still there) is one of the three reasons I don't follow MLS much even though I love soccer.
And my point is this: this is America. Things are different here. Well, then, there's the inherent disconnect. Because we really believe in means to an end, while Euros get caught up in the authenticity and machinations of shit. At the end of the day, Clint Dempsey is playing in our league and not some other league. This is good for our league and good for soccer in our country. If someone would be okay with him not being in our league, that's their right not to care, but it's also our right not to care what you think about our authenticity and credibility. Because you're not a stakeholder to begin with. We have long since passed the point where this isn't anything but a business. People like you get so ********ing emotional about the fortunes of 25 people you've never met and who surely don't feel the same way about you. What, "Euro?" Someone from Europe? "Europoseur?" An American who fancies themselves as being worldly in the ways of soccer, meaning that only the European way of doing things is good enough for them. Yes, it's a pejorative. It's like anyone else who poses. It's enough already. It certainly would be dying without it. TV ratings going back to the NASL days in this country have never been impressive. Men's domestic outdoor league soccer has never been a ratings-grabber on American television. Might never be. But the league has gone from 10 teams to 12, then back to 10, and now to 19 and on to 24+, with stable ownership almost everywhere, infrastructure, stadiums, clubs that are meaningful to their communities, with players who've become heroes making moments that resonate with people, and with exponentially more fans who actually care about what happens. That's light years ahead of where we were. I know it's trendy now among some of the less educated people here who have axes to grind to say, "MLS didn't have anything to do with that, the sport's profile rose all by itself (oddly) and MLS just came along for the ride." Which is, as you might have guessed by now I would say, complete bollocks. MLS is not solely responsible for the increased profile the sport of soccer has among Americans now. There have been far too many moving parts for any one of them to be solely responsible, but they have all combined to create a true golden age The fact that I've seen these people do this....forever? "Get rid of the stupid names or I won't support you!" (Got rid of the stupid names. Still not supporting.) "Dump the shootout or I won't support you!") (Got rid of the shootout. Still not supporting.) "All you ever do is sign aging Euros! Stop it, or I won't support you!" (Sign young players and capable players from Europe. Still not supporting.) "Get out of those cavernous stadiums and build proper grounds or I won't support you!") (Built a bunch of stadiums. Still not supporting. Complain about football lines in 5% of games.) "Get announcers who know the game or I won't support you!" (Brits take over the announcing booth. Still not supporting.) "You have no atmosphere at games. I'm not going to support you!" (Supporters sections become big parts of most MLS games and league marketing efforts. Still not supporting.) The goalposts move all the time with these people. I've seen it. I'm not reading their ********ing minds. This is what they do. The FACT is MLS is a far, far more credible and worthwhile league than it was in 1996, yet the people who made up their minds then (who don't believe in second chances) have never seen fit to revisit it. As a result, they've missed out on some pretty fun stuff. Not the be-all, end-all, but some pretty fun stuff. Meanwhile, the rest of us have gotten to enjoy a league that's not going to fold, is growing in size, stature, relevance and ability, and provides us with local, high-quality soccer and entertainment. So. What. The. ********. Is. The. Problem. Again? (Emphasis mine.) So why do you keep telling us how to do shit? You don't follow the league. You're not a stakeholder. We're not interested.
There are other issues (which these instances themselves actually address) that far outweigh these in terms of the perception of the league. Actually no ... it really doesn't. If so, NYRB would be much more like LA. How exactly is TFC being favored ? Seattle ? Why ? For being honest about itself, what it is, where it sits in the global picture, and where it sits in the public conscience ? I mean do we really want to get into that about sports leagues ? Yeah, let's really talk about FFP .... Were the EPL and the MLS equal in all things but how each conducts its business .... but that's not the case. We (while the growth has been tremendous) haven't grown to the point that moves such as this don't greatly benefit the league. That's just a fact of the state of affairs. How could you say otherwise ? People have tried to correlate the overall popularity of the sport/USMNT/USWNT to that of the MLS and it simply can't be done. It's called a pattern ... and time and time again the same tome has been written in this regard. We can't help that you are stuck on an impression from a decade or whatever ago. If you're one and done, then you don't find many new things to enjoy I guess. I don't say this to be rude, but you're not who this league honestly cares about capturing. You've already made up your mind. Curious, what are the other two reasons ? .... and in those answers, is that first one not something that deals directly with the other two ? People in their criticism, are quick to forget/ignore the realities and state of things that this the truth of necessity for this league.
I'm just wondering among whom he thinks there is this deep philosophical rift over single-entity and the league's roster rules. I can bet you right now that if I surveyed 30 sports-following friends of mine, the only ones who would know a goddamn thing about MLS's roster rules are people who already follow the league. Those are the ones who are pissed about the lack of transparency in roster moves -- the people who already know the league very well. John Q. Sportsfan who watches the USMNT on ESPN and will check out Chelsea vs. Manchester City on a Sunday at 10 doesn't know or care what MLS's salary cap is, what a Senior International spot means, or what Generation Adidas is. On the flipside, they also probably don't know what Financial Fair Play means, or the EPL's Homegrown Player Rule. This is the largest group of people who could hopefully be reeled in to MLS fandom in the next 10-20 years, and the group of people who MLS needs to become a viable TV presence, not just a viable gate presence as it is now... NOT the small, self-important group of people who get together and wank about how cool they are because they root for a European soccer team. Self-important though they may be, there's not enough of them to make this league a viable TV presence -- and they won't watch MLS anyway, until the day the next Messi comes through an academy here and stays here. And even then, those people will probably just go watch F-1 or something.
Damn. I was actually going to award him points, but I couldn't remember what the values were off the top of my head. Nice.
What does that have to do with anything? MLS is different in this way than the other American leagues as well? Ahh and we get to the root of the discussion. You had better believe I get too damm emotional about the fortune of 25 people. (Or 53 if we are talking about the Chargers). That is why I love sports. It is irrational and stupid to be emotionally involved in how a group of payed professionals perform but that is the reality. I have established a totally irrational bond with the San Diego Chargers and Liverpool FC. To the point that my day can be absolutely ruined by their actions. I know it is stupid and sometimes even get mad at myself for it. But guess what it's what being a fan is about. Maybe you should try it? So you are right I don't really care about the business side of it. Nor do I give much crap about the finances of the league. Of course I want the league to be healthy enough for my team to have a place to play but that's where my interest in the leagues finances end. And when I talk league I mean NFL also. At the end of the day the reason sports make money and work is because people in your words "get so ****** emotional about the fortune of 25 people you've never met who surely don't feel the same about you". If we didn't than professional spectator sports would be absolutely irrelevant. And with MLS it is difficult to have that connection when the league appears so overtly interested in making a profit for it's owners (I am not blind that it is the goal of other leagues too maybe they just do a better job of hiding it). NFL fans don't really care much about their leagues marketing goals. If the league did something for the "good of the league" that improved one of their rivals you had better believe those fans would be furious. Again this has NOTHING to do with Europe. Speaking of... Not from Europe, born in Washington DC raised in San Diego, California. Went to University for a year in Britain, some call that Europe some don't, depends on your definition (and political views). I do know British Football pretty well. Have a working understanding of other leagues but wouldn't consider myself an expert. Do not believe that the European way of doing things is necessarily the only way. Neither do I believe the American way is either. So I am not European, and I don't think everything has to be the European way so not either of those terms. So stop lumping me in with what you think I am. Thanks. Well just say we will have to agree to disagree on the rest. I think MLS is riding the rising tide more so than driving it (although I would not deny MLS has made a contribution) you have made it very clear you disagree. One point I will emphasize is that I have NO ax to grind nor am I bitter or angry at the league. Quite the opposite I have tried to follow the league and be a fan. I am a big supporter of the idea that you follow your local team/club and I despise glory hunters. I have attended DC United, Galaxy, Chiva USA and Timbers matches. I have been to an MLS cup final, and watched probably 100+ matches on TV. But I have never ever been able to make that irrational f**ed up connection that you pointed out earlier. I have my own hypotheses as to why, but it's not due to lack of exposure, or an ax to grind (not that you care, you already have you mind made up because you know everything) And maybe I have found the reason I can't follow the league. The other two reasons are... The quality and specifically speed of play. Yes it has improved over the life of the league and expect it to continue to improve but it is still not at a high level compared to other leagues I can watch. A lack of a local team to support. I have tried to be a Galaxy fan but I can't develop that irrational connection to a team from LA. (Not just MLS tried to in Basketball, Hockey and College football and just can't cheer for a team from LA can't do it). Also the Beckham thing didn't help (Manyoo connections). Tried to connect with DC united but to far away and really don't have any ties to DC anymore. So those are my two reasons. Honestly if the quality of MLS magically matched the best in the world I would probably follow like the Champions league. Watch a match or two a week and consistently follow. If San Diego got a team I guarantee I would have season tickets the first year. And I would have to see if the local connection would overcome my other concerns with the league. Could see it happening (lord knows I have some serious issues with the way the NFL does things).
Parking at the Super Bowl costs $150. Tell me more about how there is anything unique about the profit-seeking of MLS owners.
The difference is that no one has ever made money on pro soccer in the US until recently. We don't have pro clubs with a century of generational community support. We need people to step up and start clubs from scratch. We need stadiums built, we need academies paid for, and we need American coaches and players to be paid fair wages. This happens with huge investment and in America if you want to encourage investment you are going to have to show some profit or at least sustainability. Yes in Europe you will find wealthy member members of the community willing to sink money into a local club because of civic pride, but we don't really have that here. Guys are investing because owning a sports team is fun, but ultimately there needs to be a good business model or else the soccer we all want to see just won't happen. You don't have to be a fan of owners making profit but as an American soccer fan you should realize that there is a direct connection between clubs succeeding financially and the growth of the game i this country.
This is fair, except that it's true for almost every league on the planet. The sport will die if people refuse to watch anything but the absolute best--the Champion's League is great, but those teams have to come from somewhere. It's like football--we all know the NFL is the pinnacle of the sport, but that doesn't stop people from watching college and HS football as well (some of us even prefer NCAA to NFL, even though we know the latter is "better"). This, to me, is totally legit. I started following soccer--and MLS--in 1998. At first, I was just watching whatever I could in an attempt to "catch up" and learn more about the game. I followed MLS just because it was there, and I knew no more about the big Euro leagues than I did about USL (pretty much nothing). My loyalty to DC United started back in 2001 while we were temporarily living in Charleston, SC* once I'd learned a little about the team's history, but when I actually moved to the area in late 2002 and started going to games regularly--that's when I became a real diehard supporter. And that loyalty is continuing even now that United are frankly pretty awful to watch. But I've developed a genuine attachment to the club based on years of attending games, being a member of a supporter's group, tailgating with friends, traveling to games with friends, etc. At this point, if we were to move away from this area I would remain a United fan. But if I'd never lived here? I don't know. If I'd stayed in Nebraska there's a real good chance I would have become a Sporting KC fan instead. That's not a glib guess based on proximity--in the past few years (since I moved away), Sporting have really expanded their footprint. They have youth clubs in places like Lincoln, NE, and I have friends back home whose kids play in those clubs and who've become fans of the team themselves. I think that's probably the barrier for MLS right now--it can, and will, continue to grow in the "markets" that have a team. The level of play may not be the best, but it's pretty damn good and if you live near a team you can go see that fairly respectable level of play LIVE. Beyond that, it's going to take some time. For soccer fans who don't live near an MLS team and have no personal ties to any of them, I can understand why you wouldn't tune in. But just realize that that's not a problem with the league--MOST leagues and MOST clubs around the world are in the same position. There's no reason for anybody outside of Bulgaria to follow Sofia Levski, but if you live in or near Sofia you damn well have a good reason (better than CSKA--[shudder] ). What you're describing is a perfectly valid reason for you to not follow an MLS team or watch the league in general--just don't think that it's a "problem" that the league needs to address. It is what it is. *Yes, I was also a Battery supporter--season tickets & went to every game the two years I lived in Charleston.
If that truly were the case ... you wouldn't have a problem with the MLS. Why does that matter for the MLS, but not for the NFL ? You enjoy paying regular season ticket and concession prices to see guys that won't make the first cut ? Based on what ? The USMNT ? .... well, guess where half of those players have come from ? Guess what league they're starting to stay in/come back too ? There is a tide rising, yes .... it has two swells ... one is, in fact, being driven by the MLS/Garber and Co. And I have my own too .... for some reason it matters with the MLS, but not your other leagues. FFP ? freaking joke ... but it doesn't bother you. A few straight moneyjacks about the NFL have been pointed out ... they don't matter either. When you're goosing but not gandering, you've already made up your mind. I was right. The mechanism you just openly blasted directly addresses this issue. The academy and development is coming along nicely ... but it's a process that just takes time. Something has to be done as a make weight until the production from that route is regular. The League and those that bought into it know and understand this. They're all smarter and better at this than we are. Just a thought. I don't have a local team to support. You're closer to one than I am. You're closer to one than one of the two that I truly follow. I was in the DC Metro area for 3 years ... developed a love for the team. I've been back in Texas for 3 years now ... hasn't changed a thing about how I feel for DCU. I don't say this to be an ass .... but really, I'm just hearing excuses. Now, the local team is a huge issue ... but NO LEAGUE has a "local team" in every market where it has a fantastic following. Why is it different for the MLS ?
First you did see what I put in parentheses. Second the NFL does not help facilitate player moves to help high profile players go to high profile markets.