So much for the Spanish and Italian Leagues [R]

Oh Googling something stands for about as much hard evidence as wikipedia. I can't wait for someone to try, and succeed, in incriminating someone based on what has been written on wiki or what they've googled

 

Like I said, I'm not making the allegation. However, there are things that are being questioned. The events of the Catania/Chieveo game for example, were deemed very suspicious (note the word "suspicious") mainly because of the volume of bets that were disproportionately paced on the actual outcome. I watched the highlights and it was one team attacking til they got the first goal, the other attacking til they got a very dubious penalty for the second, then very little attacking for the rest of the game.

Now those events may have been legitimate. I don't personally know. However, they were suspicious (mainly because of the betting patterns), hence they are being investigated - and that's good.

If you can provide a similar example of that in the English game, I'll be open to considering it.

 

Googling isn't hard evidence. However, the fact that "Serie A match fixing" is such a widely searched topic and amount of results many results does show how much coverage the subject has received and is still receiving.

At the very least, there is certainly more suspicion of it in Italy. Of course that could be down to awareness and (as you said) cultural acceptance that it goes on. But then, as I said, I find it hard to believe that our tabloid press wouldn't be digging and fishing for something like that if it were a prevalent issue.

 

I've already told you it's a popular subject because of the attention it brought upon itself, first and foremost by the Italian people themselves. Did you forget that they wanted Buffon and Lippi to quit Italy before the last world cup based on nothing but speculations?

It's part of the culture to accept that corruption exists on all levels. There may very well be more corruption there than other places, even if there is no way to really measure that, but what is for sure is that the people are more acutely aware of it.

You guys do a better job of keeping it hush. There's a lot more at stake to be lost. In Italy, because it's accepted that it happens, all that has to happen is to watch a game equivalent to the Pool/Chelsea one for the claim to be made again and for it to hit major papers. Did that happen in England after that match?

Nope.

 

But that's just it: speculation was rife that Liverpool might tank, especially because them winning not only helped their rivals, but also would set them on the way to breaking their record of 18 titles.

Yet afterwards, all the reports, commentary and coverage of that game generally came to the same conclusion: Liverpool had tried to get something out of the game.

In any case, that was the last game that a team would dare throw because of the scrutiny involved. That's why the Italian games under investigation right now are midtable draws and Serie B matches.

Also, why would the FA be hush-hush over it? That in itself is playing with fire. Corruption and match rigging can only go on for so long on a significant scale before it gets uncovered. The FA would be insane to cover it up. If anything, there would be more at stake if they stood by and let it happen rather than doing all they could to prevent or stop it.

 

If you guys could be a little objective just for a second you'd realize that:

-the betting patterns in the Chievo game were suspicious to say the least

-the outcome of the Liverpool v. Chelsea match were suspicious as well


Now the question becomes who do you believe and why.

The EPL fans have no problem jumping from "suspicion" to corruption....and even go so far as to cite the Calciopoli scandal which:

a) they likely know very little about outside of what they've read about in English papers (which is as biased as it can get when talking about Italian football)

b) they probably don't realize that the sanctions were doled out without a proper investigation or enough substantial proof that anything "corrupt" actually happened.

THEN......the EPL fans assume that the logical suspicion that came out of the Pool/Chelsea match is just a bunch of "they were tired" or "they were demoralized" because that's what the English media say?

It's ridiculous. IF they reported on the Chelsea/Liverpool game in Italy....how do you think it would be painted?

I'll tell.......OH THEY'RE SO CORRUPT!

Long story short......why do you believe that corruption is possible/probable in Italy but not in England......based on the same (lack of) evidence?

Again...I can answer that....because you're biased and as such....you've rendered your opinion a little less valid.

 

Personally, I dismissed the fears that Liverpool would throw the match because they (and other teams) have been in positions to shaft their rivals before and done the complete opposite. 1995 was a prime opportunity and they didn't take it.

The "demoralised" and "tired" appraisals were my own. Liverpool started strong an faded. Had they looked remotely half arsed I'd have been livid, because that game had a huge impact on our title.

The fact that I watched the game and my opinion was that Liverpool hadn't deliberately screwed us is specifically why I'm arguing against it. And once more, you can;t know anything of our tabloid press because they are eternally clamouring for a juicy scandal. Everything that could be done about John Terry's affair was done to keep it under wraps and the media fought tooth and nail to be allowed to report it.

Why do you then think they'd be trying to keep corruption under wraps? As much as they like to pretend, the papers are never happier than when English football is in turmoil.

 

I'd like to point out that your comments on the Chievo match are suspect in and of themselves.

"I watched the highlights and it was one team attacking til they got the first goal, the other attacking til they got a very dubious penalty for the second, then very little attacking for the rest of the game."

You can't make comment in bold #2, if you were watching only the highlights.

In other words, you're basing your comments strictly on what is being speculated or reported in the UK, which makes your speculation that match fixing occurred in that game no better than the Pool/Chelsea game, which had it's own degree of speculative evidence per viewers observations.

Like voodo asked above why do you accept the corruption being evident in Italy and not the UK?

Likely because you believe most of what your media reports with regards to Italian football (almost all negative).

Here's something to consider.

Prior to taking a hold of your national team, I recall the English media being quite critical of Capello's tactics. Especially when he was coach of Juventus and specifically during the 06 CL campaign when Arsenal knocked Juve out with, what I'd like to add, were good counter-attacking means (not very typical of Arsenal in your league, but well played in that CL game).

Nonetheless, the common degradations hurled Capello's way while he was Juve boss, from the English media were:

Negative Tactician
Anti-Football Merchant
Catennacio lover

Now as your NT boss, don't you think it's a bit curious that while Capello is still the same manager, using the same tactics, etc, that he's not criticized in any way. All of a sudden you hear things like

He plays a great "English" Style
Smart Tactician
Brilliant Motivator

Why the changed stance?

discuss....

 

1995??????? Really???

So because you don't think they did it 15 years ago, it's not possible that its happening now? That's a pretty low threshold you have there.

There is a HUGE difference between being "gossipy" and reporting something that could/would destroy your league. John Terry banging some dude's ex is a far cry from outing a match fixing scandal...no matter how blown out of proportion the "banging" story is.

They would (and probably do) keep it under wraps because, for all of its strength and power, the EPL is built on a very fragile foundation. The big clubs in the EPL are almost all exclusively foreign owned. As such....if a scandal like Calciopoli ever emerged in England....that foreign money would dry up so quick your head would spin.

If people believed the matches were fixed (whether they actually were or not) like in Italy...you'd see the crowds dwindle.....next, bye bye lucrative tv....next.........bye bye EPL strength. A match fixing scandal would absolutely cripple the EPL in a way that would make the empty stadiums in Italy look like the Bombonera during the derby.

Now you know why a "journo" in England might hesitate to dig all that hard in an attempt to unearth any "real" scandal.

For the record...I'm not implying that the EPL suffers from match fixing. I think it's a very well run league that showcases some of the best players and teams in the world.

I'm just not naive or biased enough to believe that the whole country wouldn't protect their golden calf at all costs.

I think "influence" happens in every league in the world. The "haves" impose their wealth and strength every way they can to ensure they remain one of the "haves".

It happens in England just like it happens in Italy...Spain and every other league of prominence in the world.

 

This is a topic that most fans of the English National team like to sluff off. Its a whole other ball of wax and is even more off topic for this thread than our last rants.

For the record...it's a relationship of convenience.....they'll "adopt" anyone that can bring them from mediocrity to success...EVEN AN ITALIAN!

I love it...this World Cup is a win-win for anyone cheering against England. If they crash out it's "same old under achieving England".
If they do well it's "it took an Italian to fix English football"

 

You just became my favorite poster on BS

Where you been hiding?

 

I try not to get into these kind of pissing contests because somebody eventually takes it personally and it degrades into a bunch of incoherent babble.

 

Lets see you produce a single article that said those things.
That is just a flat out lie and piece of fiction.

I wont hold my breath because no such articles exist .
I notice yanks like you are always claiming the "english media have said stuff" and then cant find a single article to back it up.

And you'll "adopt" a phoney allegiance to Italy so you can hang around these threads and talk shit.
Even though you're just a poser from CANADA!!!
Thats what I call "convenient"

 

Hahahahaha....that's awesome. I don't need to justify why I support Italy. I have very legitimate reasons, but for the sake of this argument...what do you say to somebody born and raised in Italy when they ask you about your new found love of Fabio Capello?

Oh thats right......there's nothing you can say because your FA has made all of you Serie A haters look like a bunch of fools because they've forced you to support an Italian.

.....and then, that same Italian makes your team respectable again and you conveniently forget how much you dislike Italian football...even though your success is a direct product of it.

Beautiful. Still a win-win for me.

BTW....back in 2006 when the talk about Capello was going on there was more than enough concern in the media about defensive tactics and the fact that he didn't speak English so don't make it sound like it was an overwhelming cry of joy when he was being considered.

 

You're implying that people previously hated him. Which isnt the case ,cannuck.
The other mouth-breather claims there were a load of articles bashing him in the past. That is fiction ,unless you want to post some sources!!! you got nothing!!!

This forum blows because it is packed out with posers from America and Canada who run their mouth about European football based on their delusional beliefs. Like the lie that the English media is always attacking italian football. Which is the biggest load of shit I have heard. The english sport media is packed out with people who hate all football and footballers in general.

Capello was seen as a good choice despite your own fantasies about him being a hated figure.

 

First of all...I never implied that Capello is/was a hated figure.

What I will say is this......the English have ALWAYS talked shit about Italian football....FACT. Then they go and hire an Italian. That's the funny thing for me.

Also...I still don't see why you call me a poser. Not to mention that your "location" indicates some place in east Africa.

Btw...I hold a Euro passport...not that it matters to you because it's easier for you to assume that I'm some "mouthbreather" to assist you in calling names when you can't refute the fact that it's ridiculous that the English FA turned to an Italian to right their ship while people still talk shit about Italian football.

 

Post some sources or you have no credibility.

 

This is a joke right?

Go to the first post in this thread....then read the posts that follow....then look at where some of those posters are from and who they support.

If that's not enough read some of the posts in these threads:

https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1056594

https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1125534

Do I really need sources to show that the English (generally speaking) hate Italian football?

This is bordering on ridiculous now.

 

No, that's ridiculous. The thread starter you sourced is American. English people and foreign supporters of English clubs are not the same thing.

For the record I think you have a point, that the English press are hypocritical. But to generalise that to all English fans is complete bollocks. The press have never reflected the views of English football fans, and probarbly never will.

 

Edit: Argh long time ago, ignore.

 

Anything is possible. The timeframe just goes to show rare that opportunity is. However, nobody can show anything about that Liverpool game that can prove they deliberately dogged it. I've given valid, alternative and realistic explanations for their performance and yet get accused of "bias". Frankly, the only reason on earth that the result was even considered "suspicious" is because Liverpool are our rivals. If Chelsea had been playing Fulham and the exact same incidents and outcome had occurred, I am 100% certain in that not one individual would even question the legitimacy of the tie.

You're showing a lack of knowledge here. The press has done plenty of stings over things that are far more than "gossipy" in the past. Are you not aware of Bruce Grobelaar? It's a different sport, but they just stung a professional Snooker player (quite a popular sport in the UK) and if you needed any further evidence about their attitudes, look at what happened with Treisman over the weekend. The 2018 World Cup would be a massive economic boost to our country and has massive political support behind it - yet for the sake of a story, the Mail risked losing us the whole thing.

Again, an enormous misconception. The Premiership was NOT built on the money of foreign buyers. It was built on a breakaway from the Football league which allowed the top flight to broker incredibly lucrative TV deals. Of the "foreign investors", only two teams have been drastically improved by such events. One of those purchases (Chelsea) only happened in the last six years, with the last one (City) not even being in it's second year. If anything, the foreign participation has done more overall to hurt individual teams than improve the league. Take a look at Man U, Liverpool, West Ham and Pompey. If anything, the increased stature the league enjoyed based on the TV money attracted the foreign owners. They had little if anything to do with making the league what it is.

And cripple the EPL? I don't think so. People in the UK stick by their teams through thick and thin. I see countless games on the continent where the Nou Camp or San Siro are nowhere near capacity because the opposition are mediocre. Our top teams fill their grounds week after week and that's been a pretty steady constant forever.

Attendances might take a minor knock in the short term, but they would still be substantial and would undoubtedly recover IMO.

Again - huge misconception over the English attitude to Italian football. Nobody ever questioned the quality of Serie A in it's heyday and nobody ever felt that Capello was anything less than a top-class manager. The thing with the Italian style is that historically it is very tactical and methodical and while one can appreciate the tactical nuances of the style, to the layman (especially one brought up on '70s and '80s style British football) it's lack of pace and open play is often perceived as tedious, boring and negative. It's the entertainment value, not the quality that is held in low regard.

As for Capello, yes, people were concerned that he didn't speak English when hired and that it might be an obstacle while plenty (myself included) wondered how well his tactical approach would translate to an English squad of players and how much knowledge he had about the players at his disposal. That wasn't to say that we felt he was a poor choice and that his strengths didn't outweight those minor uncertainties.

 

But at the same time nobody can show Liverpool were clearly trying.

Siena had nothing to play for yesterday against Inter. Now they were clearly trying. Liverpool's performance was nothing like that...

 

Siena's last game was a full week before. Liverpool's had been the previous Thursday, in a must-win European Semi-Final, lasted 120 minutes and was their last chance of silverware in a disappointing season.

Surely that is a perfectly reasonable scenario for a team being physically, emotionally and mentally drained? And surely that in turn is a more rational explanation for the performance than a "lack of effort"?

Furthermore, given that an accusation is being made, why given that set of circumstances is the burden of proof on proving Liverpool didn't cheat?

I'll repeat what I said before... if that was Fulham's fixture and not Liverpool's, even if the run of play was the same - same stats, same shots, same level of effort, not one person would have found reason to question it. The fact is, the seed of doubt over that game was planted beforehand by all-and-sundry because of the assumption that Liverpool as our rivals would prefer us not to win the league and break their record.

Likewise, if they'd played like that and it had been Chelsea and Arsenal competing, again, nothing suspicious about it at all.

 

This was all brought up to highlight the fact that you judge two situations with completely different criteria...based on your bias.

You're the one who believe a Serie A match was fixed because of betting patterns. Fair enough. I agree, its suspicious.

Then you "back it up" by talking about the highlights you watched of the game about one team attacking and the other..blah blah blah..insert more talking out of your ass.

Its ridiculous.

You have ZERO idea what you're talking about when it comes to allegations of match fixing and corruption in Italy. I know this because you've convinced yourself that there was wrong doing based on highlights you watched.

Sounds like someone made up their mind before even watching the game.

Now...the Liverpool/Chelsea match is an innocent tired team according to you. Good. That may be so...but please don't try to pretend that you know what you're talking about when it comes to Italian football.

You actually have to watch it to make an educated comment on it.