So after six games what have we learned about Klinsmann?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by BennyScrap, Nov 11, 2011.

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  1. vaquero28

    vaquero28 Member

    Jul 9, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    an "instant expert at "watching a surgery " I agree. Instant by way of never having worked for it. Touch of sarcasm.
    MERRY CHRISTMAS
     
  2. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90DB-sCjN-k"]Kaká Brilliant Goal 1-0 - Brazil v Egypt - Conf Cup - HQ - YouTube[/ame]

    I guess moments like this, when 'in the moment' he just goes with what he feels, awkward bounce (from a not very good trap) allows him to put it over the defenders head, and the second over the second defenders leg..... I dont know what is!

    He is going with what he is given in the moment. That for me shows how he knows how to work 'off the cuff' like a jazz musician.

    Dempsey had a moment of genius just like it. It's a skill to be able to put your head up when dribbling and see the field, teammates, and at times like that, a goalkeeper that didn't have his back post well guarded.

    So he chipped the keeper, and made it from one of the hardest angles. How that isn't considered 'soccer IQ genius' I'll never understand.

    SOme players in the heat of the moment, with pressure, can't and won't see that, or have enough 'balls' to even try it.

    Just my opinion though.



    Also, just tell me how you really feel GV. :rolleyes:

    The signs from a bully when frustration hits.....

    [​IMG]
     
  3. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    I dont know... I'd say that moments like Kaka's and Dempsey's were a different kind of IQ. I'd call that ingenuity rather than soccer IQ. Soccer IQ is more to do with the tactical side of the game - finding spaces, dragging players out of position with your movement, seeing a wide open teammate. I've thought about chipping the keeper plenty of times, and I pulled it off once in a scrimmage against a girls team, but that doesn't make me any kind of soccer genius. If anything, it makes you confident in your abilities to try such a thing, and that's exactly what Clint is. He's one of, if not THE, most confident players on the team. He believes can do it and he believes he WILL do it - and the regularity with which he does is quite astonishing. But that's a testament to his combination of skill and confidence in himself - two things he's got plenty of.
     
  4. GVPATS77

    GVPATS77 Member+

    Aug 18, 2008
    Fullerton, CA
    You directed that comment towards me implying that I've never played the game. That isn't true. But unlike you, I don't feel the need to tell everyone that I can place the ball on their head from 30 yards with any spin they want me to.

    You played semi-pro soccer 40-50 years ago, before soccer had grown to anything like what it is today.

    Believe me, that doesn't make you Pele compared to other posters on these forums.

    When I was 17, I was on vacation in California and played in a couple of semi-pro games on my cousin's team as a fill in player. Its nothing that I brag about.

    You on the other hand, use your playing career from 4 decades ago as an excuse to dismiss anything that anyone says that contradictory to your opinion. You make personal attacks against me, saying things like "no wonder you aren't a journalist anymore". Which is all well and good. I'm not a journalist anymore because I make a shitload more money doing what I do now than I ever would as a journalist.

    But apparently citing first hand knowledge, conversations I've had with players and coaches, real world evidence and examples...that's bullying if it is contradictory to someone else's opinion that is based in speculation and nothing else.

    I haven't personally attacked BFuego. I have attacked his arguments and pointed out all the times that he has contradicted himself in his own arguments, just so he wouldn't have to admit that perhaps his opinion, while he's entitled to it, is inaccurate.

    On the contrary, you took it upon yourself to personally attack me in a personal message. One the the mods deleted because they considered you to be trolling and making personal attacks.

    Interesting how you complain about people bullying, yet do it yourself.

    This.

    What Dempsey pulled off was a moment of Genius. I'm not arguing that it wasn't.

    But when people talk about soccer IQ, or basketball IQ, or football IQ, they aren't referring to an individual moment of brilliance, because anyone is capable of a "moment".

    IQ stands for intelligence quotient, or your ability to learn and grasp new concepts.

    As it pertains to soccer, it is about the ability to read and understand games. To predict the movement of your teammates, and the defense, and to play the cutting ball, or to make the correct run.

    Defensively, it is the ability to read the play and position yourself in the correct spaces to intercept a pass, or to make a tackle without fouling.

    Our players, even our best players, react to the game rather than predict the game. It really is our biggest weakness as a soccer nation. Much more so than a lack of a first touch or dribbling ability.

    That is what I'm referring to as Soccer IQ. I have spelled it out before this post. The small group arguing that our players have a high soccer IQ, have not addressed these points. They simply refer to the Juventus goal, which was a moment of genius and supreme technical ability, it was not an example of soccer IQ as it pertains to this conversation.
     
  5. vaquero28

    vaquero28 Member

    Jul 9, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was going to reply but you know< it is not worth the thought.
     
  6. ebbro

    ebbro Member+

    Jun 10, 2005
    You said they (you're italics) and a lot of Americans made career choices that got them stuck in situations where it's difficult to get away. Other than signing a long contract, none of what you just posted has to do with their career choices getting them stuck. And contracts hardly keep guys hostage to teams these days. They are not and have not been deemed worthy enough by the big clubs.

    Big clubs have often paid for high salaried, under contract, older, overpriced, non home grown players, who will take time away from their talented young players - if they're deemed good enough. Sure, as time goes by it will get less likely, but no big team was coming in for any these guys earlier in their careers.
     
  7. SPA2TACU5

    SPA2TACU5 Member+

    Jul 27, 2001
    ATX
    Because my post was a reply to a post where you said "they're not stuck".

    It was not a reply to a post where it was stated that 'players are not stuck because of their career choices'.

    We're discussing whether they're good enough to play/be at bigger clubs.
    Not whether their worthy or not to make a move to a bigger club.
     
  8. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I still fail to see where I contradict myself in my arguments? Are you saying on the things I have opinions on, because yours differ I should go with your opinion because you are 'connected' and know people?

    Like I said, until you say who you are, you're just another joe schmo' posting on Big Soccer.

    Until then, you're just another guy wiht an opinion and strong 'belief' on why you're right.

    Ok, so you say 'soccer iq' is about the ability to 'read' plays and 'positoining' to make things happen right?

    Look at dempseys, goal, he 'read' in that split second that the Keeper was off his line, and had his drrible, body placed at the right angle, and gave himself the perfect amount of space to chip the ball from that angle to the opposite backpost of the keeper.

    That is 'soccer iq' based on your standards.

    He had enough 'insight' and ability to see that goal 3 secs ahead of time once he got the ball.

    I am not saying our guys are comparable to Ronaldo, Riquelme, or Maradona. But you have to give credit to our best, in the fact that they can play alongside some of the best and 'hang' with them. In dempseys case, he put in a GOLAZO on one of the biggest teams in italy.

    Donovan showed what he can do to the best in england with a mediocre Everton.

    Give credit where credit is due.
     
  9. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    I think that soccer IQ is more on a wider scale than just the goalkeeper and Clint and the ball. It's about every player on the field. How to move yourself to create spaces/exploit spaces. The chip, while involving IQ, depends more on skill and belief in that skill. Soccer IQ is about everything going on on the field, with AND without the ball.
     
  10. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Right.


    I think Clint has that 'grasp' of the game. Yes, he isn't a riquelme with his vision, or a dribbler like Robinho, Ronaldinho, or the next big thing in Neymar, but he has a good understanding how to play the game at that 'techincal' level, as does DOnovan.

    Yes, they aren't guys you build your team around at the highest level, but they can hold their own playing along side the best, and vs. the best.
     
  11. ebbro

    ebbro Member+

    Jun 10, 2005
    You started the dialogue saying they are stuck due to their career choices. I said they weren't. You replied with a bunch of reasons they're stuck that weren't related to carer choice.

    We were discussing why no big club has come in for our players. They aren't considered good enough.
     
  12. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    But not in a possession style... Even if Clint and Landon can, those are two players...
     
  13. Otergod

    Otergod Member+

    Sep 20, 2007
    indianapolis
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ryan Johnson has had some absolutely brilliant moments for SJ and now Toronto that resulted in goals. Does not mean he has a high soccer IQ. Individual moments are like highlights (actually that's all highlights are made of)... they are good at showing the Best Aspect of a player, but rarely shows the overall player.

    Saying that i think Dempsey has a rather high Soccer IQ. He has his weaknesses to his game, but i think he reads the game well and knows where the dangerous positions are. I think he's capable of slotting a nice pass and also reading the defense. He's a capable US midfielder/striker.
     
  14. vaquero28

    vaquero28 Member

    Jul 9, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  15. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I disagree. I think both their touch, and ability to play touch and go soccer shows they'd be some of our BEST players to play in a more 'possession' style game.

    Yes, Dempsey has weaknesses, but I agree he reads the game well, knows where to 'be', can make special things happen when you need it most through imagination, and 'vision'.

    That to me is signs of how 'smart' he is in the game. Yes, he is no 'genius', like some of the players I mentioned earlier... but he can play along side players like that and hold his own, combining wtih them.
     
  16. SPA2TACU5

    SPA2TACU5 Member+

    Jul 27, 2001
    ATX
    Please carefully read our posts again.

    I said:
    - they made career choices
    - leading them into situations
    - at which they find themselves unable to move.

    Then you said: they're not unable to move.

    Then I replied: they are, because of reasons x, y, z.
     
  17. lurking

    lurking Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    On the Korean players at big clubs, this is probably more statistical anomaly then anything else.

    Although I also suspect that the US soccer establishment is actually an impediment to developing elite players. Once a player even hints at enough talent to be something special, they get spoiled rotten. The anointing of youth talents is counter productive.
     
  18. ebbro

    ebbro Member+

    Jun 10, 2005

    And you backed that up with a bunch of examples that weren't career choices.


    And they're not. They can move.

    And again, these reasons were not career choices.

    Is it easy for them to move? Maybe not and partially because of the reasons you cited, but if you're wanted enough a team will at least put in a bid. Are they unable to move? No. Are they unable to move because of the career choices they've made? I don't think so. Are they unable to move to big clubs because of a conspiracy against Americans, which is what Bolivianfuego alluded to and GVPATS argued against and what really kicked off this discussion? No.
     
  19. TheNearPost

    TheNearPost Member+

    May 21, 2010
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Dempsey and Donovan have had their best times playing for teams that are more directed towards counter-attacking or direct style of play. That's not a coincidence if you ask me. But like you've said, that's an opinion of mine.

    The main question here really isn't whether or not we can play a possession-based attack. The main question is whether we'll be better at it than the style we played under Bob Bradley. Mind you, Bob Bradley's tactics weren't perfect. He was great at taking advantage of our attacking strengths, but once we lost Onyewu and DeMerit, ( and were forced to use inconsistent Bornstein for that matter), he couldn't find a way of covering up our defensive weaknesses. Meaning we scored a lot, but conceded a lot.

    In any event, the general style he played seemed to suit our players pretty well.

    My problem is that even if we COULD get our team to play a possession-based attack, I don't think we'd be better at it than the style that we were doing under Bob Bradley.

    At least not right now. You still haven't answered the question of why we need to force this current senior national team to play that way. Why don't we just implement that style at the youth level and then once those players become good enough for the senior team, bring them up to the senior level?

    Basically, I want you, or really anyone, to answer two questions:

    1)Even if we could get a possession style of attack going in the short time that Juergen Klinsmann has, do you seriously think we'll be better at it than the style we were playing under Bob Bradley?

    2) Why do we need to make this current senior national team learn that style, especially if they're not going to better at it than what we were doing before and we're wasting valuable games we could be usign to evaluate players? Why not just implement that style at the youth level and bring those player into the senior national team when they're ready in the future?
     
  20. SPA2TACU5

    SPA2TACU5 Member+

    Jul 27, 2001
    ATX
    PLEASE READ MORE CAREFULLY.

    Look when you drop out of a plane with a parachute and land on an island somewhere in an ocean,

    then you will find yourself unable to move because:
    - you cannot swim
    - there are sharks
    - no one wants to rescue you
    - you're illiterate
    - et cetera

    But you didn't end up on that island because of those reasons. You ended up on the island because you made a choice to jump out of an airplane.
     
  21. vaquero28

    vaquero28 Member

    Jul 9, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This then falls back on number one and I suppose the answer would have to be this: Klinsmann is no simpleton when it comes to understanding the game and judging the talent of players and has tried different players in various positions and one can assume that he is getting or trying to find players who fit into the style he wishes them to play. For some of us that is sacrilegious. 6 games played and so many suggested players by many different posters would be impossible to fit into the few games available to the team. I am sure the intent is to find a core of consistent players to retain some semblance of chemistry and to introduce players and allow them a few games to blend into that chemistry. It would not make sense to rotate one player in in one game and say he did not perform as we all have good days and bad days.
    I am sure if he would try every player that has been suggested here for various positions and rotated those in, there would be an outcry that would castigate him for being wishy washy and trying to destroy what little chemistry there is. In the end we have everything to gain with trying to vary our game and to change our tactics based on our opponent. We keep mentioning the about face against Slovenia. However in my opinion we may have lined up in a different formation but when it was all said and done we possessed the ball satisfactorily. There is absolutely no reason why a possession oriented game cannot be an attacking and countering team. For me that is a basic misconception. There are no plodding possession teams that win consistently. It is the rapid movement that destroys defenses and the lancing sudden through balls that make the quick passing so deadly. Simple possession in the backfield does little for the game or for scoring. However possession in the opponents half always poses a danger for that sudden strike, from distance or through the middle.

    Just my opinion. Since my experience is based on olden times I am quite posssibly out of line offering an opinion. Apologize in advance.
     
  22. ebbro

    ebbro Member+

    Jun 10, 2005
    You read more carefully. I said "they're not stuck if they're good enough and wanted enough." In you're analogy, someone wants to rescue them.

    And based on your analogy, the only career choice that seems to have mattered is (taking Dempsey e.g.) that he went to Fulham and signed a contract to make some money. That happens all the time and players move on.
     
  23. braun

    braun Red Card

    Feb 22, 2001
    metro Boston
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sanity.
    Everything you've said is dead on.
    I think you understand JK's moves thus far.
    If he is wrong or doing it wrong it will be obvious at qualifying in the most hostile places.
    I think he is smart, spiritual and experienced and will not be wrong.
     
  24. ATLGunner

    ATLGunner Member

    May 8, 2005
    Atlanta
    This is the proper understanding of the situation.

    Saying "I think he is smart and experienced" much less "spiritual" is no less than a naive deference to a desire for a messiah figure.

    A rational understanding of this is one such as thenearpost's. There is room for ideology and transformative figures in US Soccer, and they are at the youth level. Every team up until the USMNT should be training and playing with a focus on high pressure, possession, creativity, aggresiveness, etc.

    However, to ask our finished products, those on the MNT, to do the same is impatient. Training them in the limited sessions with the MNT at an advanced age to play a new style is ineffective. Great coaches, in any sport, know how to adapt to the resources at their disposal.


    Take, for example, a small business (for example, an innovative tech company). Let's say you have a couple of smaller storefronts where you sell your boutique brand and do quite well. However, this is a fairly niche product that does well in certain demographics and has a limited market. However, you have a bit of funds a a fertile market for expansion...so you can decide to invest in development. You hire some really innovative guys who you hope will take a business with massive expansion potentail and fulfill your hopes. Now, it will take years to improve the product, lessen cost so you have a larger customer base, and create products that are of international quality.

    Do you, at this point, keep a focus on development, while keeping your storefronts where they are and making improvements as your product line improves...or do you build all new fancy, good looking stores everywhere where you can eventually put your new product, but must sell the old product until development catches up.


    Those new store fronts would be vacuous; empty and unfulfilling.
     
  25. Bolivianfuego

    Bolivianfuego Your favorite Bolivian

    Apr 12, 2004
    Fairfax, Va
    Club:
    Bolivar La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    1 - I don't know for sure, but from what skills i've seen in the past from many of the guys who were playing last cycle that are with us for 2014, yes I think those guys will sooner or later get a grip on this new possession style.

    But you don't, so you obviously feel this is a mistake. Understandable because of what you feel.

    2 - Again, I feel this is better overall because it throws our guys 'head first' into a system that they all are capable of playing. Yes, it's a little rough right now, but 6-7 games in is still a short amount of time to judge.

    I believe this is the best choice, because it will help our system overall. These guys should be playing what the kids are, because when these kids grow up, and rise through the ranks, the transition won't be as hard because they've played the same style of footie' but at a different level.
     

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