Skillfull, Hopefully Interesting Talents: The Summer 19 Transfer Forum

Yeah well, take all that with a large grain....

Who was the last English 'midfield 'savant' - was it Will Hughes or something like that? Played for Derby County but hardly got a sniff for the Lions.

Than there's this cat named Adu - should have been 'adieu'.

 

Two of them did get injured for the last few games of the season, the back up forwards dealt with it.

Klopp has more faith in Origi than much of the fanbase, we'd be cashing in on him not offering him a new 5 year contract if Klopp did not think he could cover. The same is true of Brewster, Klopp has promised him time. Bringing in a new forward for that is going to mean zero time for Brewster.

On top of that there is Ox, Shaq, Keita and Lallana who can all fill in in a makeshift front three.

We've not even played our first preseason game, it is a bit early for the doom and gloom. Kent, Wilson and Jones were all likely to play ahead of Shaq for the first few games as we look for a buyer for at least one of the three.

We can do that formation with Ox, Lallana, Keita, Origi, Wilson, Shaq and Brewster. Spunking 70 million on Pepe at 80k a week is not going to give us more options than we already have.

Last summer we spent big. The right players for Klopp were available and the owners backed him to the tune of a net spend of over 120 million. We also saw the wage bill increase considerably with these genuine upgrades as well as new and improved contracts for Salah, Sane, Robertson, TAA and others.

Pepe is spending for the sake of spending. If Klopp and the scouting network don't think he will improve us or that there are no other viable alternatives then it is better to keep that money for when the right player becomes available.

Well if that excites you only Jack Grealish was fouled more times on average than Wilson was last seaon in the Championship. Harry is constantly winning free kicks and penalties, is younger, homegrown and does not have a greedy agent agitiating for a move every other summer and has played in the middle three, front three last year. He can fit in 5 of our current positons.

I don't know if Wilson will stay, I'm happy to let Klopp access him and Kent (though I can't see that happening, his production was poor despite great performances).

But whether it is Wilson or Pepe that player is likely getting only a few hundred minutes in the league. Klopp roates the midfield, he does not rotate the attack, he rarely has in his career as a manager as he's a big beleiver in goalscoring form and does not try to disrupt that.

As much as Klopp likes him that is a no-go. His body is in the Fekir category, he'll never be fit for a whole season. He trains poorly, does not eat well and had a shit attitude when leaving Dormund.

Unless Barca offer an excpetional deal I can't see our scouting team signing off on it and lets face it after rinsing them with Coutinho that is not going to happen.

To reiterate, we spent a huge amount last summer, we increased the wage bill by some margin. This summer unless the right player becomes available don't expect us to sign for the sake of signing players.

 

I'm not basing it on just the Barca game. There was interest in Origi this summer, we could have cashed in on him instead the manager wanted him to stay, that is primarily were my faith comes in him.

But the Barca game was not just a mircale. He scored the only goal from open play in the final. A few days ago the Premier league ref association pointed out that the handball would not have stood in the premier league so had that been a league game Origi would have been the difference between winning and losing.

And it was not just his Champions League exploits, he played 368 minutes in the Premier league scoring 3 goals and 1 assist in the process. Two of those goals being the winners against Newcastle and Everton. He played one domestic cup game and scored the only goal for us in that game.

Origi has done what is expected of a back up forward. He's only 24 (same age as Pepe) and been able to score in England, France, Germany, the Champions League and at International level.

Obviously he's not perfect, he's a poor passer of the ball and his link up play is pretty bad. But his strengths are his pressing, being able to create out of nothing and being able to play in any of the front three positons. He also is happy with his positon in the squad and has shown in his entire career with us that he can produce from a limited role.

It should also be remembered that Mane was premier league proven, Salah had been on our radar for half a decade by the time we bought him. An expensive forward from outside the Premier League who is going to be a rotation player is going to take time to adapt.

Even huge money signings like Keita and Fab took time to be integrated and they were bought for the first team.

We don't regularly play the 4-2-3-1 because Klopp has taken advantage of the attacking prowess of our fullbacks. 4-2-3-1 limits their attacking play, the extra man in midfield means that the defence has support when they are attacking. klopp was not forced not to play 4-3-3, but did so on purpose due to how effective TAA and Robertson were last seaon. He had no reason to change it up, they were our top assistors, our most effective resource

Klopp may twerk the system again with Keita more comfortable in the league and Ox, Lallana and Shaq all capable of that no 10 spot but don't expect it to be a regular part of our game unless other teams start double teaming our full backs.

City's spending is not the standard for us or most competitive teams. We are not a multi billionaires plaything who chose to bypass the financial fair play rules to fund their team.

We have great owners but we simply can't afford hundreds of millions of talent that is only used for a few hundred minutes of football all season. That is not in our budget, it should not be in any clubs budget.

Man City are the team people are always going to cite but United did the same, they brought in Sanchez and it's killed them they went from a coherent tight attack to too many players and none of them being able to find form. Higuain was a disaster for Chelsea, to a lesser extent so was Morata. Giroud, who is Chelsea's back up, was less effective than Origi was for us.

First of all we are not City. This needs repeating, we simply don't have their finances. You are going to have to let this go, they have no interest in financial fair play. The owners, thank god, are not going to put the club's future in jeopardy by trying to match them.

Secondly Sane wants to leave, Mahrez was unhappy last seaon. Their adding players is begining to backfire to the squad harmony.

They've been blessed that Aguero is so injury prone that Jesus has always been able to have enough games to keep him happy but it should also be remembered that Origi in the league has been just as productive as Jesus. 7 goals in 1022 minutes vs 3 in 368.

A big difference between our fringe players and City's is that for last 3 or 4 seaons we've been drawn against Premier league opponents in the first round of the domestic cups and Klopp has been using those games to blood some youth players. City have taken the domestic cups more seriously than Klopp has, I kind of hope that changes, but I'm not exactly broken up about it considering our european and league form in the last two years.

 

We have a set wage bill. We simply can't afford to many players on x wage. Last year we had to ship Ings out on loan, the season before that Origi and Sturridge. We have a budget.

I don't think we have it in our budget to have a 60 million pound reserve as such players expect wages to match their transfer, the ones like Mahrez and Sannchez expect even more money to compensate being a rotation player.

We are looking at cheaper alternatives if Wilson does not do enough in preseason to convince Klopp, alternatives that are going to be of the Origi and Shaq calibre, not the Pepe.

Not 30 million, not with his contract being increased. We got huge sums for the likes of Solanke, Ibe and Ward because they were on such low contracts, smaller clubs can take the gamble.

Origi and Brewster have been promised bigger roles, considering the two of them played a combined 368 minutes it is hard to see where another attacker would fit in.

And they are not alone, Lallana and Ox played a combined 484 league minutes last season, I'd expect that to at least double that and both can play in a forward 3. Keita was very slowly integrated into the team last season, I expect him to be picking up more minutes.

Just from the last two season's numbers I don't see where another 60 million pound player would get the time to justify his expense.

No, I'm saying that Klopp should give the preseason to access Wilson, if he's good enough we'll not sign another attacker, if he does not think he is we will likely bring in another attacker for in the region of 20-30 million and offload Wilson.

I have faith in Klopp, I have faith in Wilson and I have faith that the the window is open for quite a while, there is no rush.

But spending for the sake of spending is idiotic. If the board don't think the right players are available, either through price or not fully sold on them, then spending that money now and not being able to do so at a later date is idiotic.

2 years ago there were fans desperate to buy a Centre back, fans pissed that we didn't buy anyone when Southampton refused us VVD. The board were patient, rather than buy Harry Maguire or some other weaker alternative they waited for the right player to become abvailable.

The club can spend big this summer, but if that means missing out on the players the board and manager actually want at a later date because we've allocated that transfer fee and wage to a secondary choice then I'd rather we wait.

 

Good discussion Suss and Pika - for someone like me, very informative on how the game works.

And instructional - just about any other forum I've visited, two posters couldn't or wouldn't have a discussion like this one without insults and f-bombs. Credit to you both and reason why this is my favorite forum.

 

great post !!

 

more Divock in our futures ....

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/48943512
Striker Divock Origi has signed a new long-term contract with Liverpool after helping them win the Champions League.

 

We may not be Man city but we did win the CL and came in 2nd in the PL. This along with the the revenue from TV and other revenue sources means we have a lot of money to spend on wages and players. The wages for extending players contract over the last couple of years is going to look like cheap money.

 

I don't think that is true. We had a net spend of over 120 million last summer, the last 3 seaons we've brought in a lot of elite players for the first team which has burdened our wage bill.

As of the accounts of 2018 we had a wage bill of 264 million (second highest in the league) while our turnover the last two seasons has been inflated by making the Champions League final the last two seasons, an event we can't take for granted. Our bill has increased substantially since 2018. Keita, VVD, Fab and Allisson is over an extra 25 million added to 2018's bill while Salah, Firminho and hopefully Mane, all received huge new extensions.

We hugely overspent last summer, this one, unless the right player who could actually improve the first eleven becasme available, was always going to see us spend modestly.

Certainly a Left Back. I'd put that positon over an extra rotation forward. Ideally, I'd also like to see us cash in on Clyne and bring in a more attacking rotation RB, but next season I think we can cope with one of Milner, Clyne or Gomez covering for TAA.

My argument is not so much that Origi is awesome and that no one could do better, but just pointing out that the club has made their call by offering him a new contract. He, as well as the other attacking fringe players, will be our rotation.

Had we wanted Pepe Origi would have been offloaded. As it stands Wilson may be offloaded and a 20-30 million attacker brought into replace him, but it's not going to be a Salah/Mane/Pepe level signing.

 

Im fine with LFC re-signing Origi. In all honesty I have seen Pepe and I don't see much difference out of him thatn what Origi brings to table, and Origi has shown he can be effective in this team paradigm. I am with Idreamofpikas Origi being resigned shows a cooled interest in Pepe. Also as said before if Brewster is giving a chance to show he is part of the future of this club, surely Wilson deserves his chance. Not to mention we have Ox back. (Granted with his history it will be for like month before he is hurt for 7 months again, but you can only hope this year is different for him)

 

I did that after #6. The neighbors have needed PTSD counseling ever since.

 

Looking a bit like Danny Sturridge before his pace left him to me, using hold up skills, some dribbling, some technique. I'm excited to see him in person.

 

I think this is all really great logic... but perhaps only when it comes to Pepe in particular.

My point would be, were City worrying whether or not Bernardo or Mendy or Jesus or Sterling or Sane would really, fully pan out? The issue wasn't "oh they won't play because City already have Silva/KDB/Aguero!" The issue is... what happens when one or two or three of Silva/KDB/Aguero/Walker are injured, what are you bringing to bear in that moment? Because City just went through that, missing some of those players (or others) for weeks, months at a time. And still got 98 points and the title because of their depth and ability to rotate and respond to long injury layoffs.

So for LFC: miss on Felix because he's 120M euros, fine, miss on Pepe because he's maybe an overrated one-season wonder, fine, miss on MDL because he would completely shatter the wage structure, okay, fine, miss on Brandt because he wants starter minutes, also fine, miss on Werner because heart is set on Bayern... that's all fine! But you still have to keep going after it. Fernandes is still out there, is he the answer? I don't know, but the drop in ambition between aiming for those guys and not getting them to just saying "oh well, we have Ox back, and Wilson/Kent/Brewster could collectively offer something, and Naby could be better too"... that's a huge, huge gulf.

The consecutive miles Firmino & Salah & Mane all have, the way they play, the demands of the system... they need support. They need top-quality replacements. They've all missed time due to injury, what happens when unluckily that is compounded when 2 are all out at the same time? Just slot in Origi and Wilson? They need to be spelled by quality. Maybe it won't work out! Maybe it won't be an optimal deal. But the club has never had more money, and this starting 11 needs that ambition in order to push for a prem title.

If not now, then when? This is the most complete first 11 in probably what, 30-35 years? Certainly in my time as a supporter, and probably in my entire life. They need to have some contingency plans for worse-case scenarios in terms of squad injuries, and right now they frankly don't. All it costs is a bunch of money. So go do it. Because bringing in no one, missing or just not engaging on ALL of Werner, Brandt, Fernandes, Felix, Pepe, Havertz, Jovic... just feels like a big mistake and big opportunity lost.

All that said, if Klopp is waiting for the right buy then I trust in him to get it done. We'll see how the rest of the window shakes out. It's over before the 1st match this August, right?

 

Tough titty. We're trying to win the premier league. Against City. He can have a go next year maybe.

Well that's not good enough. Not for this system.

Maybe he's not the guy, but someone needs to be. It's a mistake to not bring someone in.

This is pretty fair, and if they really feel that way perhaps this is the way it's going to be... but they have to continue to get fairly lucky with injuries in order to maintain the kind of challenge this 11, and this run by Klopp, deserves. LFC were incredibly lucky last year in a number of ways, so... hope it continues, should they bring no one in!

So I guess we'll hope that these 3 key attackers will not get serious injuries despite not being given much rest in the past 3 straight years. Fingers crossed! With a bit of bad luck could be looking at an attack of Origi, Brewster, Firmino, with maybe Shaq as the most creative CM coming out of midfield.

Ordinarily I wouldn't say "spend just to spend", and you do make some good points... but they should really spend this summer. It'd be a huge mistake otherwise. Maybe CM and the fullback positions are in a better place than I realized, but the attack is not. It's incredibly thin in terms of top-tier talent. City have 2 near world class number 9s, because one gets injured a lot! They have 2-3 world class 10s, 2 world class wingers (which can be spelled by one of the world class 10s), and a backup winger who had 22 goals and assists in the league a couple season ago, and 28 goals and assists in the league a couple years before that.

Danny came off the books too and he was on a huge inflated wage. They've went to 2 straight finals, they've made hundreds of millions over the last few years. The net spend over the last decade is something like 30-35M per season.

"The money" is not a reason to not do anything, it's the last reason on the list. If there ever was a time to spend, it's right now.

 

Sorry, I just realized I'm very late to this.

I'll read the whole thread next time... I'm basically repeating people's points.

 

I don't think some of these arguments are very strong...

1. Ox, Lallana, Wilson, they wouldn't sniff the City bench, and like it or not that's the opponent.
2. LFC don't have to "spend like City"... they have to spend SOME money now on a player or two since, you know, they've just taken 180M from CL over the past 2 years.
3. As for huge fees on players brought in, remember that Barcelona funded the acquisitions of VVD & Fabinho. So yeah, they bought, Naby, Shaq, and Alisson. Now they need to buy 1 player to help out their attack. They can spend half of what they spent last summer. And that's still only going to bump up the net spend over the life of FSG to something like 45M a season. This is not a financial issue, at all.
4. The wage bill is high... who cares, no one is shattering the wage bill individually, and the club is richer than it has ever been. The time is now, why spend the money on Naby/Alisson/VVD/Fabinho only to let the process down now? It's working! Keep it going a LITTLE bit.

To pull a Spurs this summer MIGHT be a ********ing gigantic mistake.

 

Puh-lease. You clearly have a short term memory, Ox would easily make their bench, he was one of our best players last season.



You think Fabian Delph is better than Ox and Lallana? Man City last season relied on 18 year old Folden as a back up forward. All clubs do so.

Man City have better depth in some departments than us, weaker in others. I'd not have have all out CB's before I'd dream of allowing Otimendi near our team. I'd have our front three over their's.

2018 our wage bill was higher than Man Cities, only United beat us. Last season we spent a over 120 million net, Man City made a 10 million pound profit.

Clubs don't have to spend like crazy everyyear. One year of relaxed investment is not enough to have the wheels come off the bike.

But not both their wages. Our wage bill is huge and we spent big last summer. Out net spend for the last two seasons was 130 million, a 65 million net spend is not within our budget every season, certainly not at the rate our wage bill is growing.

If the right player became available I am certain the owners would back Klopp but right now they are not going to spend for the sake of spending.

There are six teams in the Prem capable of getting in the top 4 next season, we don't want to end up like Arsenal who's finances are screwed because of their wage bill. We want to be able to be in a positon that one season out of the top four does not totally derail us as a club. It means managing the finances properly.

Was the attack not fine last season? The season before?

The attack is more than fine. The depth is decent. Not Man City decent but then their depth at CB and CM is not as good as ours, it all evens out.

First of all most actual Spurs fans consider last season to be better than the one before, so I'm happy to pull a Spurs.

• 3rd vs 4th
• a domestic cup semi final and fourth round exit vs a semi final and fourth round exit
• Knocked out in the first knock out stage vs their very first Champions League final

Secondly are situation is vastly different to Spurs.

1. Spurs knew before the season began that Son would be missing on international duty for an extended part of the season, they did nothing about that
2. They allowed Dembele to leave, one of their better players the previous season, without replacing him. We have lost no one of that status
3. They were aware they were over reliant on Kane and knew of his niggling injuries, Mane and Salah were the two top scorers in the league, Firmino scored 12, the same amount as Spur's second top scorer Son
4. Vertoghen was 31, Alderweild 29 and spent most of the previous season injured

So we are not looking at the same situation. Also we have have had a vastly different last two years to Spurs. It is not just that Spurs did not buy a player last summer but the previous two summers they'd only invested 45 million, a third of our investment the previous two seasons. In those two years only Sissokko and Moura had improved their first elven, the rest all fringe players. In the process they lost Walker and Dembele, two important players of their first eleven.

In our previous two years we'v added 7 players who should be challenging for the first 11 and Shaq as fringe. In that time we only lost Coutino and, at a push, Can from the first eleven.

I don't want to be rude but saying we are in danger of pulling a Spurs is pretty ignorant. Spur's failiure last season in the market was a culmination of three years in a row of poor ( at least in comparison to us) squad management.

 

good post pikas, right on.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...mours-nicolas-pepe-jurgen-klopp-a9000656.html
Is Jurgen Klopp right to stand still in transfer market?