Should Gold Cup Qualification be changed???

Discussion in 'Gold Cup' started by drt2k3, Jul 8, 2013.

  1. drt2k3

    drt2k3 Member

    Jul 1, 2005
    Wilmington, NC
    Club:
    Wilmington H.
    Would UNCAF nations be open to a proposed change in Gold Cup qualification.

    Instead of automatic qualification for all 3 NAFU teams and 0 for UNCAF, I suggest CONCACAF should automatically qualify the top 2 NAFU teams and the top 4 from UNCAF based upon FIFA rankings at the beginning of the year the Gold Cup is being held. The remaining 1 NAFU team and 3 UNCAF teams could play each other for the last 2 Gold Cup spots. I would have a draw amongst the 4 teams pairing them off for a home-away aggregate goal series. They could be scheduled on 2 consecutive FIFA matchdays the Spring Prior to the Gold Cup in order to assure each team has their full side. This would also emphasize the importance of consistency among the NAFU and UNCAF members as automatic qualification would be the reward for maintaining a higher ranking.

    Any negatives?
     
  2. Mutiny RIP

    Mutiny RIP Member

    Apr 15, 2006
    Bradenton, FL
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Country:
    United States
    To start off the list of negatives, I oppose any qualification system that relies on the FIFA rankings. What ranking did they give Brazil before the Confederations Cup?

    If your overall point is that we may want to rethink the automatic admission of Canada, I agree. It's kinda crazy that Honduras or Costa Rica have to go through qualification, but Canada gets in automatically.
     
  3. drt2k3

    drt2k3 Member

    Jul 1, 2005
    Wilmington, NC
    Club:
    Wilmington H.


    I agree that FIFA rankings may be a little odd at times, but overall for CONCACAF they do a decent job at ranking the confederations teams w/i the confederation. Some system has to be used and I was trying not to be too radical.

    I think forcing some form of qualification on the NAFU members and rewarding higher ranked UNCAF members, who from what I have read on this board are not big fans of the UNCAF cup, would be beneficial to CONCACAF and would improve the quality at the bottom of the sub regions.
     
  4. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Country:
    United States
    Don't be silly. Brazil had won only 2 or their last 9 matches before the Confederations Cup, and haven't played any non-friendly matches since the last Copa America. No WCQs for Brazil, as they are already qualified. Any ranking system that had them near the top had to both totally discount results over the last two years and somehow value meaningless friendly wins over WCQs.

    They are what, 8th now? That seems about right.

    And, BTW, all of the WCQs systems and seeding are based on FIFA rankings.
     
  5. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    United States
    They are 9th.
     
  6. Jay510

    Jay510 Member

    Apr 21, 2002
    Madison, Wi
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Country:
    United States
    Canada have money, as such they will probably always get into the gold cup, no matter how bad they are

    I would be open to entertaining this:

    If you make the semis of the wcq, you automatically qualify for the gold cup. (12 spots)

    Everyone else (regardless of who you are) play some sort of qualifying for the last 4 spots
     
  7. Jay510

    Jay510 Member

    Apr 21, 2002
    Madison, Wi
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Country:
    United States
    I should say in a 16 team format that's what I like
     
  8. SJJ

    SJJ Member

    Sep 20, 1999
    Royal Oak, MI, USA
    Club:
    Michigan Bucks
    Country:
    United States
    I would rather just put Canada as the eigth team of Central qualifying; but if you have them play for six spots, you pretty much can guess the six teams (barring any big upset). Other than this one case, I'm not sure what any kind of inter-union qualifying would accomplish. (You might as well advance the teams directly into the GC.)

    Jay510: "If you make the semis of the wcq, you automatically qualify for the gold cup. (12 spots)."

    So one WCQ cycle would count for two GCQ cycles?
     
  9. SetPeace

    SetPeace Member+

    Jun 22, 2004
    SC Illinois
    Club:
    Torquay United
    Country:
    United States
    First, I wouldn't mind seeing the Gold Cup contested every four years instead of two. I would suggest playing it at the same time as the European championship (quadruple-headers in the group stages for viewers in the Western Hemisphere :)).

    Increase the Gold Cup field to 16. Instead of UNCAF qualifying, give all seven nations there a berth into the finals with Canada, Mexico, and the United States. Meanwhile, the CFU could have six groups of five teams in each, with the group winners making up the rest of the Gold Cup field. You could either use the latest FIFA rankings to comprise the draw for the Gold Cup groups, or you could have the 10 automatic qualifiers play for their seeding. For instance, Group 1 might see Canada, USA, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Guatemala. Group 2 would consist of El Salvador, Honduras, Belize, Mexico, Panama.

    These two groups, plus the 6 Caribbean groups could play their four matches in the span of two weeks, say, in January of 2020. Hold the Gold Cup draw in February, and get ready for June!
     
  10. Jay510

    Jay510 Member

    Apr 21, 2002
    Madison, Wi
    Club:
    Blackburn Rovers FC
    Country:
    United States

    Well, obviously 7 of the 12 semi finalists each turn are the same, and they always make the Gold Cup too (USA, Mex, can, cr, t&t hon, pan) so it doesn't bother me really. Not sure where Jamaica is this time but they must be in the gc most times too.

    The talent level after the first 10 teams really drops off, so no it doesn't bother me to give these teams auto qualies if it will make the gc better
     
  11. drt2k3

    drt2k3 Member

    Jul 1, 2005
    Wilmington, NC
    Club:
    Wilmington H.
    This is the most workable solution that would require the least amount of change. The lowest ranking NAFU team, i.e. Canada, could not be given an automatic qualifier and instead host 4 Central American teams where the top 4 out of 5 make the Gold Cup. The Highest Ranking Central American Team could also host 4 other Central American Teams where the top 4 make the Gold Cup.

    It might be more financially successful to qualify this way than having the Central American Cup. You could do double headers like the Gold Cup does and sell a lot more tickets to the non host countries games.
     
  12. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    United States
    UNCAF and Canada combined are 8 countries, not 10, so the two hosts would host 3 other teams each, not 4.
     
  13. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    I just don't know why Canada would arbitrarily be thrown into the Central American zone. Just to even things out seems silly.
    Maybe have the 6th/7th place Central American team, 5th/6th place Caribbean team and Canada play a round robin in Miami for the Final spot or something.
     
  14. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Country:
    United States
    While there is a lot of merit to these suggestions (and I especially like SetPeaces's), and understandable frustration with things as they are, I don't think we should abandon the 2 year format. Which is a shame, because I'd really like to see FIFA make it so that club's have to release their players for Car. Cup and Central American Cup matches, but I think the ideal solution at this point would be to make it so only for the "ON" year GCs (2015, 2019, etc) and not the off years.

    Simply put, we:
    1) Need the money. Not just as a money grab for CONCACAF, but a lot of our member associations need the money to keep functioning. Most of our members have more in common with Belize than Costa Rica, much less the USA or Mexico. We need this money not only for them to continue on, but to grow the sport in their countries and provide some basic facilities where possible.

    2) For many of the Caribbean members, Caribbean Cup is just about the only matches they play. Hence, that needs to be held every 2 years.

    3) FIFA rankings. Yes, we all laugh at them, but FIFA do look at them when allocating spots, or seeds. And the fact is, w/out the Caribbean Cup (and Copa Centroamerica) we lose ranking points. It will be harder to USA/Mex to every get a seed. And harder for CONCACAF to get more berths.
    ===========================

    I'd love to get to the place where we are strong enough to have a 16 team tournament every 4 years, but I don't think we are there yet. Though, I must say, if Martinique and Gaudeloupe can get full FIFA member status, I think 16 could be w/in reach.

    NA: Mex, USA, Canada
    CA: Costa Rica, Honduras, Panama, El Salvador, Guatemala
    Car: Jamaica, T&T, Haiti, Martinique, Guadeloupe +3

    3 more from: Cuba, Antigua & Barbuda, Suriname, Guyana, Grenada, Dominican Republic.
     
  15. drt2k3

    drt2k3 Member

    Jul 1, 2005
    Wilmington, NC
    Club:
    Wilmington H.
    I agree! This is why I think CONCACAF should devise a system that these qualifiers can be schduled on FIFA match days.


    Agree Agree Agree. 2 years is important for small federations who play no other matches as well as the overall financial health of CONCACAF.

    I would love a 16 team Gold Cup where the top 2 in each group of 4 advance, but I did not know if that was too radical for CONCACAF. Assuming it remains a US Based tournament, that would mean 2 groups, 12 matches total in the group round, without a US or Mexico game driving ticket sales. Right now that number is only 6 so CONCACAF may not be able to afford doubling that amount as the Non US, Mexico Group matches are usually the lowest attended. Having said that, CONCACAF has been very good about scheduling the non US, Mexico group round games in cities where there are high immigration populations and those other NT's would be a draw so maybe 16 is economically feasible.

    Irregardless, the biggest change I would like to see is more organization for the Carribean Cup including scheduling on FIFA matchdays so top teams will have their players. This ensures the best go to the Gold Cup which makes more money for everyone.

    If it remains at 12 I think the lowest ranking NAFU member should have to qualify with the UNCAF teams. For the time being, Mexico and USA are the top dogs and their participation in the Gold Cup is needed by everyone in order for everyone to make money. So for now they keep their auto bids in the form on being the top 2 of the NAFU. If they ever slip out of being the dominant two of CONCACAF, this can be re evaluated. The remaining 6 bids between the NAFU and UNCAF should be up for grabs for the remaining 8 NAFU and UNCAF teams. Two groups of 4, top 3 qualify. These qualifiers could be turned into money makers if one was held by the NAFU member and the other by the highest ranked UNCAF member with games scheduled as double headers anchored by the host team similar to the Gold Cup. You can squeeze 3 matches between 2 FIFA matchdays, so this format could be accomplished in one pair of FIFA matchdays in Sept, Oct, or Nov during even year FIFA matchdays. This way everyone can use their best players, giving the matches and since of prestige and importance.

    I think this would be financially and competitively successful as it would give UNCAF and Canada more competitive matches along with strong home dates and ticket sales, a la the Gold Cup.
     
  16. Soccerfever

    Soccerfever Member

    Aug 30, 2001
    Laval(Canada)
    Yes,qualification should be changed so that the best teams qualify for the tournament,no matter what part of the region they are from.That way we can have a more competitive tournament to look forward to...
     
  17. CBusAlex

    CBusAlex Member

    Jun 17, 2011
    Orlando, FL
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Country:
    United States
    Expanding to 16 teams at this point is not a good idea because, frankly, there just aren't 16 teams in CONCACAF capable of competing at this level. If anything, the tournament would be more entertaining (and probably taken more seriously by the competitors) if the field were reduced to 8. The tournament needs more groups like Group B, and less like Group C. With 16 teams, the whole group stage would just be US/Mex/CR/Hon thrashing some minnows with their second team.
     
  18. slaminsams

    slaminsams Member+

    Mar 22, 2010

    If you dropped it to 8 it basically becomes the Hex plus 2 played in the USA in a tournament format. There may not be 16 teams yet but there are several teams improving to at least Matiniques level. We should see less teams like Belize in the next few tournments
     
  19. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    If we added Guatemala, Jamaica, Antigua & Barbuda and the Dominican Republic would the competition suffer that much?

    I don't think so.

    It probably would spice things up a bit and bring in more money due to the Guatemala fans.
     
  20. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Country:
    United States
    Antigua & Barbuda got only 1 point in the WCQ Semifinals but their losses were by an average of fewer than 2 goals per game. Dominican Republic is moving up the FIFA Rankings, but since 2007 they have only played 24 games with only 3 of them against countries that reached the WCQ Semifinals this cycle (two WCQs vs. El Salvador and a Caribbean Cup game vs. Antigua & Barbuda) so it's hard to tell how they would do against the top CONCACAF teams.
     
  21. blacksun

    blacksun Member+

    Mar 30, 2006
    Seoul, Korea
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Country:
    United States
    For this tournament, you would be adding Guatemala, the Dominican Republic, French Guiana, and one of Antigua & Barbuda and Jamaica (who each finished fourth in their Caribbean Cup group).

    The issue isn't that the extra teams are that much worse than the bottom teams are now, it is that there would be even fewer games between good teams in the group stage. The US group would probably not have included Costa Rica (who would have been the "seeded" team in the fourth group). The tournament might not be worse, but I'm not convinced it would be better, and would require another venue and six more games. That would be another blow to the people who want a
    Gold Cup outside the US.
     
  22. CBusAlex

    CBusAlex Member

    Jun 17, 2011
    Orlando, FL
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Country:
    United States

    Yeah. The tournament is not going to be taken seriously as long as the top teams keep sending their B sides, and the top teams are going to continue sending their B sides when the competition includes Belize and French Guiana.
     
  23. Crazy_Yank

    Crazy_Yank Member

    Jan 8, 2001
    Matamoros, Mexico
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Country:
    United States
    Scrap the Gold Cup and send the 6 hex qualifiers into Copa America.
     
    Pønch repped this.
  24. themodelcitizen

    Jul 23, 2000
    BMO Field - Sec. 114
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    The original post was a very roundabout way of saying Canada should have to qualify. He's right though, we should. Quickest way would be to do a 4-team qualifying group like they had for the 2000 Gold Cup - maybe Canada, the 5th placed Caribbean and the 5th and 6th placed Central American teams, with the top 2 going through.
     
  25. drt2k3

    drt2k3 Member

    Jul 1, 2005
    Wilmington, NC
    Club:
    Wilmington H.

    haha, well yes, BUT it doesn't have to stay that way. I would like there to be some official structure as that would be good for CONCACAF as a whole.

    Canada, or whomever the lowest NAFU nation is, could host a 4 team tournament for UNCAF 6 and 7 and Caribbean number 5. The Caribbean Cup could be held as normal, although it should be scheduled on those Fall FIFA dates so teams can get their full roster. COPA Centroamericana could be eliminated which I think would be appreciated by those in UNCAF. Group winner gets the Final spot in the Gold Cup.
     

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