Sergiño Dest at Ajax

Discussion in 'Yanks Abroad' started by ChuckMe92, Oct 24, 2016.

  1. chrisdon72

    chrisdon72 Member

    Feb 23, 2000
    Dest doesn't have a clue how to defend high level players. But with his obvious offensive talents I expect he is going to get a lot playing time at Ajax to develop.

    I could be recalling the game wrong but it seemed to me NL was playing 3 in the back against Germany with a fullback playing up as out and out winger, basically. That is the role Dest is best suited for at the moment with his defensive liabilities.

    This kid is good and it would not surprise me at all if he puts his international career on hold to focus on his club this year. If he puts it all together he is without a doubt good enough for the full Dutch national team. Euros next summer might be a bit to soon but definitely this WC cycle.
     
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  2. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    I've posted this before - so apologies for being redundant, but the idea that after 4 league games anyone can be confident about Dest's future - in either direction - is a bit suspect.

    He is a "substitute" in the sense that he was not slated or anticipated to rise to 1st team regular this season - or certainly not as quickly as he has. I would go dollars to donuts that if you looked at ten Haag's summer depth chart, Dest was not even 1st FB off the bench.

    Of course, circumstances change, he got a chance and has done an exceptional job with it so far. His ball-skills are better than I anticipated, and he's very confident going forward. I do think we are seeing weaknesses in his 1v1 and positional defending - but those are things that can be coached and can easily improve with added games.

    But it is also very rare for players to skip serious involvement in the Jonge Oranje set-up and make a quick leap to Dutch national team. I'm sure there are notable exceptions, but I can't think of any off hand at the moment. More often there are players like Ricky van Rhijn, who had over 40 games at various Dutch U-little, was a 1st team Ajax starter, got 8 or so Sr. caps, then fell out of favor, after over 100 Ajax starts, he's now been released by AZ and is at 'veen.

    Or Josh Brenet, who had about 20 youth caps, over 100 starts for PSV at RB, won the league, and got 2 sr. Caps...

    I can't predict the future, but Ajax and the Dutch national team both are much more ruthless and fluid with players than some other teams/National teams. Coaching changes often bring big squad changes. Dest might fix his defensive deficiencies - and his ability to get forward should buy him a good amount of time. But I'd not consider him "the" guy at Ajax just yet. I hope he is. He's exciting to watch and Ajax likes that, but first thing is winning big games. That's most important to Ajax.
     
  3. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    Every game is a big game, but some games are bigger than others. Let's look ahead ...

    Sat 9/14 home v Heerenveen (League)[Currently 10th]

    Tues 9/17 home v Lille (Champions League)

    Sun 9/22 away @ PSV (League)[3rd]

    Wed 9/25 home v Fortuna Sittard (League)[17th]

    Sat 9/28 home v Groningen (League)[14th]

    Wed 10/2 away @ Valencia (Champions League)

    Sun 10/6 away @ Den Haag (League)[11]

    {Brief break in the action}

    Sat 10/19 away @ Waalwijk (League)[18 of 18]

    Wed 10/23 home v Chelsea (Champions League)

    ... and so forth. Plenty of action, generally two games/week = plenty of opportunities for Dest. Champions League games every two weeks. Big match soon @ PSV, but most league games against weaker opposition.
     
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  4. WheezingUSASupport

    Dortmund
    United States
    Aug 28, 2017
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  5. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Just
    PSV is off to an interesting/weird start. I think all of their goals have come from a different player - like 8 or 9 guys have bagged a single goal in their first 4 games. So it's not like Dest v. Sparta where he's facing the lone on-field goal scorer. That said, it make positional play much more important as you don't really know where the point of attack will go.

    Should be an interesting game. Heerenveen look lame again this year, so he's got a week to nap at least...
     
  6. FC Tallavana

    FC Tallavana Member+

    Jul 1, 2004
    La Quinta
    I haven't seen him much but why is he not developing as a midfielder instead of a defender?
     
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  7. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Because he plays like a Dutch/Ajax fullback. He would be more effective as a winger for the US I think, but if he gets his 1v1 and defensive positional game down he'll be a great overlapping wide back.

    He hasn't had a lot of 1st team game. He could have a very steep learning curve.
     
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  8. dougtee

    dougtee Member+

    Feb 7, 2007
    18yo gets beat twice and we are switching his position, as opposed to ajax where he is fully expected to make mistakes and learn from them. says a lot methinks.
     
  9. FC Tallavana

    FC Tallavana Member+

    Jul 1, 2004
    La Quinta
    It was a compliment. It's not like I'm asking that question for Lovitz.
     
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  10. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    I had expressed this before the Mex and Uruguay games - simply having to do with how we play vs. how Ajax plays. It's just different. Even if we played a "real" 4-3-3, which we don't really very often, our wides would not push forward the same way. Ajax often morphs into a 3-4-3 with a wing FB very high and very aggressive. More than we do, esp v. top sides.

    His "exceptional" skills are mostly attacking (He's kind of a young Fabio Johnson in his style/skills if we need a US comp) Dest or FJ *can* play D for us - but I think against top teams we might be better with him more forward.

    I mean, JOB was a stay-at-home LB-QB often at Ajax (as well as a middie sometimes) and we always played him higher up the field - even when he was a nominal "back" - it's just where I think his skills might be better deployed. But if he can get his defense chops sharpened and we can be secure in his D, that's really Aces.
     
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  11. FC Tallavana

    FC Tallavana Member+

    Jul 1, 2004
    La Quinta
    These are my thoughts as well. I was tempted to post a current best USMNT XI with a 3-4-3 and Dest in midfield. He has enough skill on the ball to be an asset right now in midfield. Ajax may have the luxury of playing him in the back because they are so much better than most teams they play, but that is clearly not the case for the USMNT. That said, I hope he ultimately settles in one role or the other for club and country (whichever country that may be).
     
  12. That's right Dumfries played most of the match like a winger.
     
  13. That would be the smartest thing to do. His club performance is going to be very important the coming months. He can do without useless distractions from national team choices.
     
  14. sXeWesley

    sXeWesley Member+

    Jun 18, 2007
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This. For my money he is the second best player on the ball in the US pool right now. I mean that as a compliment to he and Ajax, as much as an indictment of the rest.
     
  15. Woodrow

    Woodrow Member+

    Dec 7, 2001
    Brick City
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    And at least against Germany, the Dutch trotted out a three-back line, not sure if that is a tactical scheme that will get used very much or how that might affect Dest in a theoretical line-up.

    It seems very possible that the Oranje coaches were sure to check out how he did for the US, may even bring him in to the U-23 camp, and then at the end of it give him a no-bullshit evaluation, or maybe just a gentler, "there's going to be lots of opportunities to play for the USA." Just my very un-educated two-cents.
     
  16. The problem is that when he files a swap to play Young Orange matches there's no way back anymore.

    Koeman isnot wasting time on evaluating a player that has never played at least a season on a high level. He can use his time better with the squad players he uses. As Dest is nowhere near the Orange squad for two years by the way Koeman operates it's very unlikely he spends time watching him. His time is being spent watching opponents for the EC2020.
    Might be van de Looi watched the matches of Dest.
     
  17. madvillain

    madvillain Member+

    Aug 28, 2011
    Club:
    Brooklyn Knights
    He'd instantly be one of our more talented and bold attackers. That...says something about something.
     
  18. Most teams operate very cautious againt the Orange team, so backs are de facto operating as a kind of winger alot.
     
  19. chrisdon72

    chrisdon72 Member

    Feb 23, 2000
    Squad Koeman uses? You mean like that ox Dumfries?

    Of course Koeman is going to evaluate an 18 year old fullback starting for Ajax with exceptional offensive skills.

    I expect Dest will be told by the Dutch national team that they are looking at him, do a good job at Ajax this year and don't get cap tied to the US. Really, that's all they can do at this point. And I seriously doubt he will cap tie himself to the US for life in a near meaningless match 3 years out from a World Cup. There is just no upside for him to do that so soon.
     
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  20. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    Yep. The smart play for Dest is try to make sure he's still starting for Ajax in April. The Sr. Oranje won't come calling before then unless he's really blowing people's doors off, and the US will probably wait for him if he does.

    But the hardest job now is nailing down his spot at Ajax. That is not guaranteed.
     
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  21. Dr.Phil

    Dr.Phil Member+

    Jan 18, 2004
    Club:
    FC Bayern München
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If the door is still open for Nagbe then I'm sure it will be open for Dest
     
  22. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    spoiler alert - it's in Dutch (look away or turn to salted cod), basically mentions Dest is doing well, a bit of surprise since he was "padding" in the Ajax summer team. Keeping Maz and Veltman to the bench/other positions. Can still choose for the Oranje who are "in flux" or something similar to that... Nothing new or ground breaking.

    https://www.voetbalzone.nl/doc.asp?uid=359043
     
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  23. felloveranddidanadu

    Plymouth Argyle
    Dec 12, 2009
    San Francisco
    Club:
    San Jose Frogs
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not to mention the cross-the-world trips and the occasional Central American potato patch.
     
  24. Mmmm, Dumfries made a stellar rise like Dest is looking to do now.
    In this article (use google translate) https://www.voetbalprimeur.nl/nieuw...e-alternatieven-voor-veltman-en-dumfries.html
    they discuss the alternatives for the back position.
    About Dumfries this was cited:
    Denzel Dumfries
    Dumfries beleefde een fantastisch debuutjaar in Eindhoven, maar dit seizoen lijkt de ontwikkeling van de PSV-back even te stokken. Geen overtuigende optredens in de Eredivisie en Europa en ook bij Oranje was het afgelopen vrijdag matig. Koeman besloot Dumfries tegen Estland te passere
    n.

    Denzel Dumfries
    Dumfries had a fantastic debut year in Eindhoven, but this season the development of the PSV-back for the moment seems to be stagnating. No convincing appearances in the Eredivisie and Europe and also at the Orange it was moderate last Friday. Koeman decided to replace Dumfries against Estonia
    .

    He's not a donkey. Just after the Germany match WvHanegem wrote about him he simply has the qualities. I take his opinion over yours. Anyway as a defender he simply outstretches Dest physically as he's bigger.

    Sorry, nope. He will be in the stands at the PSV-Ajax match to look at the Orange players and while he's there, if Dest plays, he obviously will look at Dest. However, seems hard to understand for some in here, but Koeman only focuses on the players that are directly involved with the Orange team.
    He's not wasting time on would be prospects that not even play in the Uxx Orange teams. That's the job of the Uxx coaches.
    And no, vd Looi isnot going to talk with Koeman about Dest in or not in the Young Orange team, as that's not interesting for him running the Orange team. He wants breefing about players that are available like Owen Wijndal of AZ Alkmaar. Given how that guy is doing, I consider him superior to Dest, vd Looi has got something to explain to Koeman if Dest would be replacing Wijndal, who is in Koeman's list.
    Top favourite for the Orange right back position is among pundits Rick Karsdorp, who before his long injury absence was the debutant right back in the Orange team and hailed to be there for a long time.
    https://www.voetbalprimeur.nl/video...tbalprimeur.nl&itm_medium=highlighted-content
    'Op het EK 2020 is Rick Karsdorp de rechtsback van het Nederlands elftal'
    Gepubliceerd: di 10 september 2019 om 12:25

    This quote from the video states the expectation:
    "At the EC 2020 Rick Karsdorp is the right back of the Dutch team".
    Given his age of 24, Dumfries of 23, Wijndal of 19 and several coming in at the age of 17, Dest simply has seasoned players in front og him that will be playing the next 6 to 8 years and in that mean time younger talents pushing up for the succession.

    Given that outlook, what is the best to Dest?
     
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  25. At this match on sunday 2019/09/22
    upload_2019-9-12_13-22-22.png
    Koeman will be present to watch the bolded players. The unbolded ones will be watched as an extra
    PSV: Zoet, Dumfries,Viergever, Rosario, Bergwijn, Ihattaren, Malen, Gakpo
    Ajax:Schuurs , Van de Beek, Blind, (Huntelaar 7), Promes,

    Dest
    Koeman is going to watch the performance of his Orange attacking personel Male, Bergwijn and prospects Gakpo. In that process he obviously is going to see how Dest will perform against either Gakpo or Bergwijn on the flank and the drifting Malen. I guess vd Looi will be there too.
    For the defense his attention will be focused on Dumfries, Viergever and Blind and as a side dish Schuurs.
     
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