September USMNT Roster

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by SamsArmySam, Aug 28, 2019.

  1. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I beg to differ. I don't think USMNT caps -- even if they don't cap-tie -- have ever been treated as "noncommital." The whole point would be the implied statement of showing up for us when you could play for Holland. Do you really think these caps get handed out with the idea that we assume they will use the loophole???????????? Whole point is the opposite. You're one of us now. You couldn't possibly squirm out of this now.

    Sorry, no, I call bullsh*t. These are given to people on the assumption they are part of us and that along the way after this it will be legally cemented. Just like marrying in a church and getting your marriage certificate. You can argue you are not legally married, and people do, but 99.999% of people are not going out the trap door parsing the distinction. If you were marrying someone and they made that point the church wedding would get called off.

    The idea that we hand caps out to just anyone to "kick the nationality tires" is the real ridiculous argument here.
     
  2. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Having taken advantage of it the other direction, I can't buy we would willingly play into the Jermaine Jones Scenario. The whole point to this scheme would be he comes in this month for prep and next month for the cap-tie.

    Christian Pulisic. He had some choices. They got him into a qualifier for 10 minutes and clamped that sucker down. You're acting like the eval would be before the cap tie. It would be the opposite. You commit this type of player AND THEN figure out what you have.
     
  3. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    He's doing what every other dual national we have in this position does.................they're keeping all doors open.

    I don't really think there's anything to see here.

    I don't know if you realize this, but fully half of a US U20 camp roster says the same thing. Alex Mendez, Richie Ledesma,Julian Araujo, Sebastian Soto, Uly Llanez, etc. They never ever say "I'm committed to the US. Country X should stop calling." We saw that with Sebastian Soto very recently with Chile.

    This is a roster of 26 players. Only 11 actually start. I have no problem if a USMNT coach wants to use the last couple of roster spots as a recruiting tool for dual-nationals. They don't even have to play. Just come to camp and see what being a part of the USMNT is all about.

    I mean, folks can't be all that fired up about this. Who did people want us to call up instead? This is rolling the dice on a high-ceiling dual national versus................who? Ryan Hollingshead? He'll be there for the next camp. Maybe Dest would have been off the table at that time.

    Its good to be proactive and aggressive. Let the dual-nationals know you're committed to them.
     
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  4. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    People on Big Soccer better get used to the idea that you get treated like a whore when you act like one.

    Want to succeed ? Be big.

    I like Dest. He has shown great character. He's frank because he has integrity. He is telling it like it is. He really did like playing for USA. He really did appreciate it. He is 18 and suddenly starting for Ajax and being pressed by a "system" to make a decision he shouldn't have to make under these circumstances.

    I would tell Dest to choose the path he thinks he will be most happy with because the last thing we want is an unhappy camper. There are advantages and disadvantages in both nationalities. In the meantime, thanks for your service with u20's and here's a couple of non tying friendlies with Mexico and/Uruguay to give you the experience.
     
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  5. swedust

    swedust Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    Interesting: not an opinion I have heard (has been about replacing Zardes mostly). After watching some all-touches videos I kind of see what you mean.

    Hope to see it in action w/senior team soon enough....
     
  6. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Youtube: Jimmy Dore, Secular Talk
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If both Dest and Araujo jump ship, we should feel far more rationally regrettable of the latter, on account that given a mutual offer Julian may well have been more likely to select the U.S. being from here, they both are talents, and Julian somewhat was sacrificed for Sergino at the u-20 WC.

    Tab didn't even rotate, shift Sergino to lb for a game to give Julian one, or temporarily bench Sergino as would have happened w/ many because he was poor the first two games before backdooring a solid tourney. Julian said he felt hard-done about his usage or total lack there of.

    Also, last we heard, nobody was contacting Julian between camps, unlike Sergino who they were pretty hands on w/, and Julian just got called up a level below his pay-grade imo (belonged w/ u23's), while Dest was called up to the senior team at the appropriate time. Dest has been treated more than fairly, Julian somewhat less.

    If Dest departs there's not much that could have been done different and you can't lose what you never truly had. If Araujo does it's another JoGo situation where we're asking what if.
     
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  7. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    I mean.................so many of our young players are dual nationals. We're typically picking one dual-national over another at youth levels. Are we picking Ocampo-Chavez or Ricardo Pepi or Gio Reyna or Jack DeVries to start at forward for the US U17s. They're all dual-nationals. [Its unlikely, but Gio Reyna can play for three nations. Has a Portuguese passport and was born in England.]

    Julian is also only 18 years old, and a squad rotation player at the LA Galaxy.
    Sergino Dest is starting for Ajax in the Champions League. Apples/Oranges.

    Julian is so young that he's actually eligible for our NEXT U20 cycle. And we've called him up to our U23s. We've been pretty aggressive with him. Tried to call him up to the USYNT camp this week, but the Galaxy refused to release him.

    The "next man up" in terms of fullback prospects to get incorporated into the USMNT is probably Chris Gloster of PSV. I believe he's injured at the moment. He played just as well at the U20 World Cup as Dest did.

    To some degree we can't just call up dual nationals to the full USMNT for the sake of calling up dual nationals. They do have to be worthy of the call based on performance. I saw Julian Araujo come on the field this past weekend, and almost immediately make a mistake that resulted in a Seattle goal. Good prospect, but I see no evidence he's ready for the full USMNT. Sergino Dest? Yes. Of course.
     
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  8. largegarlic

    largegarlic Member+

    Jul 2, 2007
    Yeah, I think we're moving into a new era with regard to dual-nationals. It's partly that the world is more globalized, and people are moving around more, procreating with citizens of other countries more, etc. I was thinking we see a microcosm of this just with our soccer players. We have guys like Reyna born abroad to an American pro playing in Europe and guys like Ferreira born in the US to a Colombian pro playing here.

    And we're also doing a better job developing players, so other, better national teams are sniffing around more. Before, it was a pretty simple dynamic--we waited to see if dual-nationals failed to be good enough for their other option, and then we swooped in to be the fallback. It was the rare case like Rossi or Subotic where you had a US-developed player actually desired by a good national team. Now, I suspect this will be relatively common to see this tugs-of-war over players, especially with Mexico, but as we've seen with Soto, it will be other countries too.

    That's why I think we need to make sure we have some comprehensive, strategic approach to dual nationals. I'm not sure what exactly that would be, but it seems unwise to be caught in the one extreme of not communicating with dual nats and freaking out every time one mentions he's keeping his options open and rushing to cap him.
     
  9. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #434 juvechelsea, Sep 5, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
    anyone with an eye for soccer would have known sargent was going to be something from that bolivia goal alone. impeccable over the shoulder trap, turn, and calmly finish. most of this team couldn't execute that. now, he's not the guy to go chase your aimless longball into space, but that's blaming a Porsche for not being a Dodge Charger.

    to me we should have a really good offense but it's a matter of getting the right people on the field.

    to me the furthest forward guy in a 442 is usually a target guy or athlete and instead the player behind them is the focal point everyone is trying to set up. 8 goals in a MLS season is like Edson Buddle numbers. at that point you either play another forward or move Pulisic to striker. if we play a 433 and he's wide that's different and speed and the ability to hit a cross factor in. and I'm not even sure he'd be top of that heap or even make a final 23. weah, boyd, zardes, jozy, we are not bereft of RW options.

    kind of like i think GB is stupid for having at GC, arguably, Pulisic as the LM sitting behind Arriola at LF, which in practice results in Pulisic passing the ball to the erratic Arriola to shoot, rather than the other way around. or Houston would get in ruts where Davis would end up too far inside, passing the ball to Ashe on the overlap to cross, the opposite of who you want sending the ball in.

    part of the coaching game, to me, is thinking through how this set of attackers are going to produce goals, and having the right people setting up, and the right people finishing. right now he has this offense with second rate wings and zardes to finish chances. the primary premise to our offense at GC was set up Zardes. he got 2 goals. what instead worked was the wing forwards freelancing. you can't be much dumber than that with our pool. we may not have a bunch of world class players but this should be an attacking machine (and then defense happens).
     
  10. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Uruguayan 442

     
  11. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thought they played a 4-3-1-2. Guess it's semantics compared to a diamond 4-4-2 but I'd say those three in the 1-2 had total freedom to do what they wanted. Could see some semblance of that with the US and eventually Weah (once healthy again), Sargent and Pulisic. Kind of liked the Chilean system better though but that takes extreme fitness and teamwork to pull off.
     
  12. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Morris is better at getting over the ball at the moment. We'll see what kind of player Weah is when he gets significant p.t. with Lille. As Morris ages or loses form, Weah's stock goes up.

    ---------sargent---morris/weah
    ----------------pulisic
    -------pom---------------:)
    ----------------adams
     
  13. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just can’t bring yourself to type Wes there?

    It would be an interesting look. The LB and RB would have to be able to run for days tho. They’d be responsible for a lot of width in the side. Good news is that midfield has bite. I’d set them up the way Mou set up Inter.
     
  14. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    You really missed out. I'm lucky enough to have avoided USMNT fandom (if there was any?) in the eighties and earlier. I was a class of '93 High School Graduate, my first WC was '86, and I watched it only passingly. I may have seen a touch of '82 as it seems familiar, but it would've been just little bits here and there. The first WC I actually paid attention to was WC '90, I was thrilled watching Nigeria, seeing the US actually play competent soccer and nearly beat Italy in Italy (or at least tie them) in 2 of 3 games. In '94 it was glorious, they defeated a dark horse candidate to win it all, foreshadowing similar glory in '02 against Portugal, in defeating Colombia, played the Swiss even up, and didn't embarrass themselves in defeats to eventual champ Brazil, or against Romania. The defense was particularly effective. A year later under a new HC, they'd manage to the make the semifinals of the Copa America while blooding that new totally inexperienced HC, and while dealing with a player strike that threatened to derail the whole adventure before it even started. '98 was a debacle, but it was at least as much about combustable locker room issues, as it was Sampson's hubris, and tinkering w/bizarre formations.

    One thing really strikes me. You look at those years as a kind of wasteland, but honestly the wasteland was the seventies and eighties, when soccer nearly died in this country as a professional sport, when all the big teams were in indoor soccer and intramural teams were called the sidekicks etc. Nope, what you're missing is that while it may have been a mess, and things may have been a shoestring budget kind of approach, it was still well lead. They managed to qualify for the 1990 WC on the road in T&T (sound familiar) with a bunch of college guys. They managed to land hosting duties for the '94 WC after promising and failing to deliver on creating a domestic league (they would eventually, but two years later). They managed to perform well at the '94 WC and '95 Copa America despite lacking a domestic league and featuring players largely stuck in a year long soccer summer camp if they couldn't land a professional gig (and many couldn't). They qualified for '98 and '02 despite MLS nearly folding, they did it all w/two neophyte coaches to the international game in Sampson and Arena. Things weren't perfect. We almost lost our domestic league, Bradenton would eventually prove to be a mistake despite early successes, many of our best young players coming up between that '85-'89 era before the '90-'95 developmental apocalypse also failed to deliver, but, and this is whats important, they always managed to get it done.

    They succeeded at WC '90.

    They landed WC '94 and succeeded there.

    They qualified for WC '98 even if they imploded there.

    They rebounded from WC '98 by performing well at the '99 confederations cup, and producing their best ever U17 WC performance in '99.

    They made the semifinals of the 2000 Olympics despite criminally underutilization of Donovan by Clive Charles.

    The 2002 WC was pure glory.

    They came within 1 second (no joke, 1 second) of making the semis of the 2003 U20 WC. and were kinda jobbed at the Confederations Cup in '03.

    They had a great '06 hexagonal even if they sucked at the '06 WC except against eventual champion Italy.

    They won the Gold Cup in '07, and should've made the U20 WC semifinals but again choked big time, after having defeated Pato's Brazil, and Cavani and Suarez's Uruguay in the group stage and round of 16.

    I could go on and on, but my point is simple. While there were mistakes, still, the 1990's and the aughts were largely a period of great success, and a helluvalot water being made into wine.

    What has been so infuriating about the last decade, both in the youth development sense, and w/the senior team is that just as we finally started to see "plenty," that Thanksgiving "cornucopia" gourd metaphor, our driver's basically, got out of the car to get a beer and left it running so it slid off the road and into a flaming wreck on the embankment. Just as things were really crystalizing into the best of all worlds, we got a series of inept coaches, delusional management, and epic hubris at all levels of soccer house (we're literally not firing a guy because somebody has a doctors appointment for a serious surgical procedure, what in <expletive> are you <expletive> idiots talking about? Are you <expletive> serious?!?!?! This isn't a 1904 local theatre performance of "Our Town", it's the <expletive> national team! Who gives a bleep whose in the hospital, it's not as if the guy possesses Johan Cruyff level wisdom with the development of soccer in an international context, he's a glorified hack with connections, period.

    For whatever reason we went from a program that could make magic out of dollar store toiler paper, a rubber band, three staples and a paperclip a la macgyver, to an organization that couldn't make the medal stand, or even 4th place, in a horse race featuring five other horses where three of which were already on their way to the glue factory before the starter pistol was even fired.

    That's what I find infuriating. They figured it out, with NOTHING, twenty five years ago, and now, with everything, they can't figure anything out and what little positive is happening, is happening inspire of these idiots, not because of their deep insights or brilliant management.
     
  15. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    Countries aren't training them, their club teams are, and this stuff is super, super complicated w/many of these kids having grown up in multiple countries and been born to parents with multiple nationalities. Let me remind you guys that just about each and every single Latino soccer player in the USMNT system cheered on the Mexican side in international competition growing up. Just about every one of them. Should we boot them too?

    Recruit, recruit, recruit. It's not the 1950's, its not even the 1990's, it's 2019. This stuff is complicated.
     
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  16. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Pulisic, Brooks, Steffen, Morales, and Johnson going home after Mexico game. Updated for Uruguay game assuming no additions....

    https://sports.yahoo.com/amphtml/ch...rces-011825258.html?__twitter_impression=true

    U.S. MNT ROSTER BY POSITION (CLUB; CAPS/GOALS):
    MLS (16):
    Jesse Gonzalez (FC Dallas; 0/0),
    Brad Guzan (Atlanta United FC; 60/0),
    Sean Johnson (New York City FC; 8/0),
    Reggie Cannon (FC Dallas; 6/0),
    Nick Lima (San Jose Earthquakes; 7/0),
    Aaron Long (New York Red Bulls; 11/2),
    Daniel Lovitz (Montreal Impact/CAN; 8/0),) ;
    Miles Robinson (Atlanta United FC; 0/0),
    Walker Zimmerman (LAFC; 10/2)
    Sebastian Lletget (LA Galaxy; 9/2),
    Paxton Pomykal (FC Dallas; 0/0),
    Cristian Roldan (Seattle Sounders FC; 15/0),
    Wil Trapp(Columbus Crew SC; 19/0),
    Jackson Yueill (San Jose Earthquakes; 1/0)
    Corey Baird (Real Salt Lake; 3/0),
    Jordan Morris (Seattle Sounders FC; 33/5)
    Gyasi Zardes (Columbus Crew SC; 51/10)

    Euro Based (5)
    Tim Ream (Fulham/ENG; 35/1),
    Weston McKennie(Schalke/GER; 14/3),
    Dest (Ajax/NED; 0/0)
    Tyler Boyd (Besiktas/TUR; 5/2),
    Josh Sargent (Werder Bremen/GER; 7/2)[/QUOTE
     
  17. ifsteve

    ifsteve Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jul 7, 2013
    MS and ID
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nowhere did I say we should boot anybody. What I suggested is to move the capping timeframe up to the U20 level rather than the full senior team. I do agree its complicated. For sure. But I think the logic of capping at the senior team level is outdated giving the advancement of younger players.
     
  18. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You seem to be advocating that FIFA go back to their pre-July 2009 rules. The youth cap-tie rules were changed in 2009 to allow a one-time-switch for dual nationals.

    That rule change allowed players like Jermaine Jones (cap-tied at U20 WC) and Fab Johnson (U21 Euro) to switch associations from Germany to the US.
     
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  19. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Yup. It's complicated.

    And if you want to retain dual-nationals that you view as potential "difference makers" then you have to be aggressive. I once saw Mexico representatives at a girls U14 ODP tryout in Texas. Girls U14 ODP tryout. Think about that. THey are aggressive as hell. They hover around the FCD academy like vultures waiting for a slip up from the USSF. We make the mistake of not calling up elite left back prospect Jonathan Gomez to a U17 camp? Mexico pounced and they got him into one of their youth camps. I don't know if we'll get him back. [His brother Johan is the one that just moved to Porto.]

    Christian Pulisic was being heavily recruited by Croatia. I don't know if he was ever close to joining. But we were damn sure that we were aggressively calling him up early to the USMNT. That's what you have to do.

    It seems to me that Berhalter views Dest as a "cannot lose" case. That he has the potential to be an impactful, international-caliber fullback in the future. So OK. Then go after him and go hard. Go hard after Tim Weah. His father was the frickin' president of another country, and we still got 'em. Go hard after Tyler Boyd if you want him.

    THe US U17 staff just recruited Nico Carrera of the FCD academy away from the Mexico U17s. I'm not sure he's better than other options. But if you think he has a high ceiling, and you want him in your pool, you better aggressively provide him opportunities. Because while you're sitting around, the competition will. We let Efrain Alvarez out from one camp due to disciplinary reasons, and Mexico immediately pounced. This was the U15 level folks.

    You can't do this for every prospect because there are only so many opportunities to go around. Dave Sarachan gave first callups and caps to Weston McKennie and Tyler Adams for that Portugal friendly. While that happened, Jonathan Gonzalez hopped out the side door. Its like these international coaches are juggling plates and have to decide which ones to definitely keep in the air. Who are the "must not lose" cases? Regardless of age, go hard. Hell, I don't care if the USSF calls up a frickin' 16 year old to a USMNT friendly camp. If they think he's the "next Pulisic" then you do it. There are 26 friendly roster slots. Only 11 guys start. So you have a bunch of camp roster slots at the back end of friendly rosters for this purpose.

    I mean, what the hell? Call up Daniel Lovitz or Chris Gloster of PSV? One we know isn't an international caliber player. One has the potential to be, although we don't know yet. For Pete's sake, why call up the guy we know isn't good enough now and never will be...……………………? [I'm not arguing that for this camp. Gloster is injured.] Whenever I ask a question like this, in my head I think 'What would Uruguay do?" Uruguay sure as hell would call up the high ceilinged prospect.
     
  20. ifsteve

    ifsteve Member

    Manchester United
    United States
    Jul 7, 2013
    MS and ID
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ok I'll really light some of you up with this one. And this goes way beyond soccer.

    If it was up to me there would be no such thing as being a dual national past a certain age (18 maybe). When you get to that age you pick. Its your choice. But you decide, based on what is best for you, which country your allegiance is to. That does NOT mean you can still have emotional ties to the other country. It does NOT mean you are throwing that other country under the bus or any such thing.

    It DOES meant that push comes to shove your allegiance is to the country you chose.
     
  21. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    This does remind me a bit too much of college sports. A coach heavily recruits a player, then gets an offer that doubles his pay, and leaves (a la Nick Saban in the aughts). No harm, no foul, no penalty other than some fans hating you.

    A college football player is heavily recruited, is not paid anything no matter what, and is penalized w/the loss of a year of development and/or a year of his professional career by changing colleges.

    In what universe is this fair? Jalen Hurd, recent 49ers draftee lost a year of his pro career because he had to sit out 2017 for leaving Tennessee for Baylor as a recent example.

    In international soccer, are national team coaches hop from nation to nation w/o a care in the world, and usually get raises for it.

    But we want to close all loop holes, and demand that players define their national identity and future national team options when they are teenagers, or at most, 20?

    Seems kinda crazy to me.

    I get that there are no easy answers or hard and fast rules, and allowing total freedom would breed chaos, but I think we should at least be reasonable, and try to consider things from the players pov, and not just our own jingoistic/nationalist interests when it comes to international soccer.
     
  22. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Right. FIFA allows a one time switch only when it comes to official events.

    15 year olds can switch from camp to camp to camp to camp to explore their options. Once a youngster appears for a nation in an official youth FIFA competition, however, they are provisionally cap-tied. They can only switch once to play for another nation.

    Players can't switch back and forth, back and forth. Sergino Dest is provisionally cap-tied to the USMNT, and he has been since he played at the U17 World Cup in 2017. But before he plays for the USMNT in a permanently cap-tying senior FIFA event, he can make a switch to Holland. Can't switch back and forth at this point. Just one time.

    The reason that FIFA gives players one out is obvious. They don't want to permanently attach a kid to a national team for a career if they subsequently have no opportunity with that team (or for whatever reason don't want to play for them any more). They give them one out. Just one. The US takes advantage of this one-time switch rule all the time. Tyler Boyd of New Zealand is the most recent example.
     
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  23. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Everyone has their own viewpoint but I’m a believer across-the-board in meritocracy and competition.

    National teams should compete for dual-nationals to see which offers the most benefits (identity, career, family, brotherhood, etc.). Why? Because it makes teams better! Programs that treat their players fairly and do well on the field would benefit. Embracing a wide variety of cultures and background would presumably be a plus. That’s good theoretically for an immigrant founded nation like the USA.

    Note: this has nothing to do with teams purchasing non-citizens and is only for those with multiple viable nationalities.
     
  24. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    The truth is that the USMNT has had very few international-quality players leave the program on one-time switches out of the setup. We have an extremely high retention rate of dual-nationals. Once kids are in our program, they overwhelmingly stay. We just freak out about the very few that get away. Jonathan Gonzalez, etc.

    There's no real reason for us to fear Sergino Dest leaving for Holland...…………...except fear itself. And if he does leave, I think we should feel confident that we were aggressive and did everything we could. That wasn't the case with Gonzalez.
     
  25. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    To be fair, we’ve had very few players who would be able to make the squad for a top ten nation. I don’t think that Donovan, Jones, Dempsey, Reyna or Pope make the Dutch full squad during their tenures.
     

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