Seleção General Discussion, 2018 and beyond

Discussion in 'Brazil' started by Century's Best, Jul 17, 2018.

  1. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Winning the CA bought him some time . But it didn’t fool many . We didn’t play good and the competition was weak . The weakest in recent memory . The one excuse he can ride on is not having Neymar. I am not sure if we are Neymar dependent. But perhaps Tite is. He built a team that wasn't as reliant on Neymar, but only when Neymar has been playing if that makes any sense. I tend to think all the all other players are mostly just good support players. In early 2000s at least we had Rivaldo as another game changer and the FBs were pretty solid as well.
     
  2. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    @Century's Best

    Those Mexicans are pretty salty about that PK call :ROFLMAO:

    Clear PK if you ask me. If the fix was in that PK would have stood vs France.
     
  3. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    I wouldn't agree completely. There were some frustrating moments, but Brazil displayed good soccer in the semifinals vs. Argentina and Brazil handily and justly defeated Peru in the final.

    That said, I agree with you on Rivaldo. Ronaldo was injured at that time, so Rivaldo stepped in. We have nobody who is as good or close to being as good to Neymar who can call attention to himself the way Rivaldo did while Ronaldo was out.


    A poster in the Mexico forums mentioned me out of nowhere. I replied.

    Other teams can handle their own issues. We have our own - in the senior level. At least with the U17, we're the new World Cup champions. Let's just hope that Tite does get his stuff aligned going into March 2020. Chile is past its recent golden age, but it's still a difficult opponent, especially at home. But as we say back in Brazil, until that match, muita água vai rolar.
     
  4. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Well .. I didn't think we played well at all vs Argentina in the CA SF. Actually I thought we were awful against a team that isn't really that great. Peru have a decent team, but let's be honest, far from top quality opposition. If you look at all of our performances as a whole, we played pretty bad and it was a terrible CA with all teams looking pretty poor.
     
  5. Estuardo A. Lopez

    Jul 9, 2014
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Brazil U-17 well deserved champions. It is incredible how good Brazil is at gathering trophys,
    For me Lazaro seems the one with the brightest future, although one never knows with 16 and 17 year old kids.
     
  6. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    Historically, Brazilian national teams have won, indeed, many trophies. This is true not only at the men's World Cups (main, U-20, and U-17), but also at the continental level: Brazil has 9 Copa América titles, 11 Campeonatos Sul-Americanos Sub-20 (with 1 of them being won in 1974, when it was U-19), and 12 Campeonatos Sul-Americanos Sub-17.

    In the U-20 and U-17, Brazil has the most wins by far in CONMEBOL. However, at the U-20 level, after three-peating in 2007, 2009, and 2011, Brazil failed to win the last 4 editions, and only in 2015 did it finish in the top 4, which earned Brazil participation in the 2015 FIFA U-20 World Cup, 2015 Pan American Games, and 2016 Summer Olympics. Brazil was runner up at the 2015 FIFA U-20 World Cup, but the 2016 Olympic title was a major success.

    At the U-17 level, Brazil had a disappointing 2019 tournament, as it failed to finish in the top 4; it played at the U-17 World Cup as hosts. But earlier this decade Brazil won the U-17 back-to-back and before that, Brazil four-peated twice in 9 years, so the U-17 situation isn't worrying.

    All this is said to make the point that many titles, even recent ones, don't guarantee top form at a given moment. If Brazil falters in 2022 WCQ, the 2019 Copa América won't help much.
     
  7. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    The Seleção closes out 2019, a year during which it played 16 matches. 8 wins, 2 losses, 6 draws. 33 goals scored, 9 goals allowed.

    Breakdown by opponents' confederation:
    UEFA: 1 (Czech Republic)
    CONMEBOL: 9 (7 opponents, 2 played twice: Peru and Argentina)
    CONCACAF: 2 (Panama and Honduras)
    CAF: 2 (Senegal and Nigeria)
    AFC: 2 (Qatar, Republic of Korea)

    2019 goalscorers:
    Gabriel Jesus 6
    Roberto Firmino 5
    Coutinho 4
    Richarlison 3
    Everton Cebolinha 3 (the top scorer for Brazil in the Copa América)
    Lucas Paquetá 2
    Richarlison 2
    Casemiro 2
    Thiago Silva 1
    David Neres 1
    Willian 1
    Daniel Alves 1
    Neymar 1
    Danilo 1

    Overall, this is not a bad record. Most of us Brazil fans were displeased by the 5-game winless streak, during which Brazil lost 2 matches. But until Peru defeated Brazil on 9/10/2019, Brazil had a 17-match unbeaten streak which began on 9/7/2018, when Brazil played its first post-2018 World Cup game - a 2-0 win vs. Team USA.

    A more complete assessment of Tite's second stint as Brazil NT manager must therefore include the period starting with the match vs. the Americans; and, from 9/7/2018 to 11/20/2018, Brazil played 6 matches. It won all 6, allowed no goals, and scored 12.

    Therefore, the "Second Tite Administration" has the following numbers:
    22 matches
    14 wins
    6 draws
    2 losses
    45 goals scored
    9 goals allowed

    This is a 63.64% winning percentage. It isn't spectacular, but it is noticeably worse than the almost 77% winning percentage (20 of 26 matches) between his debut as manager in September 2016 and the defeat to Belgium in Russia.

    The offense/defense ratio is slightly worse this time around. During the first stint, Tite's Brazil scored 55 goals and allowed only 8 - with 2 of them in the match against Belgium and 1 of them an own goal.

    The numbers point to a slight decline, but nothing major or dramatic. The post-Copa América numbers needed to be addressed, and today, they were. At the very least, 2019 was the year when Brazil ended a much longer streak: 6 years without senior-level titles, and Brazil did it at home - and without Neymar.

    Going into 2020, Tite will be wise to continue observing players and teams. Players and teams are both cyclical; Everton Cebolinha was seen as the next big thing during the U.S. summer, but now he's out of most people's radar insofar NT duty is concerned. Injuries also happen. And, the 5-man change in the starting XI from Friday to today may indicate that Tite will make drastic (by his standards) personnel moves if circumstances do warrant them.

    Last but not least is the Neymar question. Neymar scored one - ONE! - goal for Brazil in 2019. Injuries, the rape accusation - all these played a role. But if Neymar is to have a permanent spot as starter next year, Neymar needs not only stay healthy and out of trouble, but he needs to show he can be a cog which makes the machine run smoothly. Tite showed during the Copa América (and against Korea) that he can set up a team to play well and competitively without Neymar. Neymar is of course going to add value to Brazil, but that's if he submits himself to Tite's system.

    Whether Neymar will cooperate, whether Tite will "reinvent himself" enough to keep Brazil competitive, and how far or how close Brazil will be in 2020 from the Brazil that wowed CONMEBOL during the last World Cup qualifying tournament - all this remains to be seen, and we will all first get glimpses of the answers in Santiago next March.
     
  8. benni...

    benni... BigSoccer Supporter

    Nov 23, 2004
    Chocolate City
    I watched the u23 vs USA and Argentina.


    That team is awesome to watch.
    Guga has been awesome. The two central midfielders have been great. Wendel and Matheus Henrique (i think).

    Martinelli has been good, but unlucky. Cunha has been decent, but not spectacular.


    Paulinho and Pedrinho have been disappointing tbh.
     
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  9. IVO !

    IVO ! Member

    Feb 25, 2009
    RIO AND CHICAGO
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    If the comisao tecnica does not call Gabigol then they all need their heads examined. With the way Firmino and GJ are playing, and the way Gabigol is playing and scoring at the highest levels, Gabigol deserves not only to be called, but to be the starting forward.
     
  10. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    #735 Ombak, Dec 2, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2019
    He was called up in October. The only reason he wasn't called up in November was that Tite didn't call up Brasileirão players. If we had a call-up tomorrow? No question Gabigol should be in.

    But the next call-up is in March. That's World Cup qualifying already. And after that it's June for Copa America 2020. It's possible that in March next year Gabigol is basically still on break and hasn't played a meaningful game yet. Based on that, I think his chance of being called up depends on how he did in the October call-up.

    There are a lot of Firmino x Gabigol conversations happening because of the potential match with Liverpool. Surprisingly Edmundo, of all people, had a good answer. "No esquema do Tite? Nenhum dos dois."

    They're both number 9s but obviously don't play the same role. Firmino sets up the goalscorers on his team and Gabigol is the goalscorer on his team. Liverpool's midfield doesn't have an armador. Flamengo has De Arrascaeta as well a Bruno Henrique and Everton Ribeiro as creators.

    I don't think there's space for both Firmino and Gabigol in the same line-up (unless you do what Tite did with GJ and move one to the wing) but to decided which one is better you need to pick a strategy first.
     
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  11. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    To expand on the March call-up points I made above, I've been thinking about it since CB posted his summary. Can we be optimistic and hope Tite will continue to renew a little? Or since it's World Cup qualifying can we say he's done experimenting for now?

    Renan Lodi and Eder Militão have pretty clearly established themselves as part of the squad and may even be starters in Copa América. This helps a ton. I feel like we can afford the luxury of messing around with the right-back position but with Danilo's performance I'm worried we'll get Danilo / Daniel Alves / Fagner for qualifiers and Copa America.

    If you have to pick one position for Tite to try to solidify next, what would it be?

    Right-back? Center-forward? Number 10? Second midfielder?

    Copa America 2020 isn't as important as 2019, so maybe we'll see some of those spots up for grabs?

    Basically every match next year and in 2021 is competitive. We need some space to play new names while we also (hopefully) evolve the tactical system.

    Personally I think that forgoing a number 10 might be the way to go, with a more versatile midfield (eventually even becoming less reliant on Casemiro too).
     
  12. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Gabigol will have to prove himself a bit to fall on Tite's graces. Tite doesn't really like him from a personal/attitude perspective. Gabigol has supposedly changed his ways (according to himself). He is also lucky we are struggling in that position. I am not sure he will do that good to be honest. He is mainly picking on poor Brasileirao defenses. But the bar is set pretty low right now.
     
  13. IVO !

    IVO ! Member

    Feb 25, 2009
    RIO AND CHICAGO
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    You didn't watch the Libertadores final against River Plate ?
    No way you didn't watch meu querido Mengao.
     
  14. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    He was mostly in the pocket of a 37 year old defender . Then scored a tap in and a goal on a big blunder from defense. He definitely deserves a shot, but I am not setting my expectations high.
     
  15. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    For better or for worse, Gabigol's chance will come during WCQ. Tite will, as Ombak so eloquently stated, have to devise a strategy which would allow Gabigol to fit in seamlessly, and that would require creators the way he gets set up to score at Flamengo. We've all seen cases of high-scoring players who struggled in the NT due to differences in systems between club and country.

    Still, if Gabigol keeps up his good form, he will provide Tite with an option for WCQ and potentially the 2022 World Cup. At 23 now, he'll be 26 when the World Cup takes place - that might be his only chance to earn the title of World Cup Champion.

    And regarding WCQ, while the format and schedule will remain the same, the order of opponents will change. CONMEBOL will have a draw on December 17th. So on one hand, our first 4 opponents could be Bolivia, Paraguay, and Venezuela... or Uruguay, Colombia, and Argentina.

    CONMEBOL WCQ is never easy, but given what we saw in this year's Copa América and in recent FIFA dates, it's going to be a war to get a top 4 spot in Qatar. Hopefully Gabigol will help us get there without too many problems.
     
  16. IVO !

    IVO ! Member

    Feb 25, 2009
    RIO AND CHICAGO
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    The 2 goals against River virando placar the last 5 minutes and winning the Libertadores will be a part of history for the next hundred years. The first goal a "tap in", he read the play and positioned himself beautifully, the second bullet shot goal capitalizing on defense errors was a golaco. Yesterday against Palmeiras he scored 2 more goals, second a golaco, now with 24 goals, the highest scorer of the Brasileirao since 2006, and the Brasileirao IS NOT a weak league, it is one of the top leagues in the world. Of course Tite will give him a chance. Futebol e momento, and in the box there is no better and more deadly forward than Gabigol today.
     
  17. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
  18. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    Tite has to give a chance because if he does not, he will be questioned. Granted, if Neymar returns in top form; and/or, whatever Tite opts for without Gabigol results in consecutive wins, then Tite will not be criticized. But by sheer virtue of his goalscoring during 2019, Gabigol has earned himself a chance with the national team.

    I don't think anybody questions that, and I don't think anybody questions the greatness of his feat in the final. I'm not even a Flamengo supporter, although I do have a soft spot for Flamengo, and eu vibrei muito com o empate e depois com a virada.

    That said, the NT has had several examples of players who tore defenses apart when playing for their clubs but struggled when wearing the Brazil jersey. Even Rivaldo - although he ultimately redeemed himself in 2002. If someone like Rivaldo can struggle, Gabigol best be on his top form (although Tite, as said before, must devise a system which Gabigol can thrive in).
     
    IVO ! repped this.
  19. IVO !

    IVO ! Member

    Feb 25, 2009
    RIO AND CHICAGO
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
  20. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
  21. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
  22. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I'll have to cross that bridge if it comes true. Until then, we would probably have to lose Gabigol for it to happen.
     
  23. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Finally GJ scored a really nice goal today. From the left :ROFLMAO:

    Getting a run of games since Aguero is out.
     
  24. Mengão86

    Mengão86 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Brazil
    Nov 16, 2005
    Maryland, RJ/ES/PE
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Going to take more than that to make me a believer again. And it was against Burnley.
     
  25. IVO !

    IVO ! Member

    Feb 25, 2009
    RIO AND CHICAGO
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil

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