Seleção General Discussion, 2018 and beyond

Also have to repeat myself ... it's stupid to have the 2nd place in a Cup final stay on the field to receive the 2nd place medal. These guys need to be free to just go into the locker room and break some shit. This isn't the Olympics.

 

If Neymar gets an 8 game suspension, he should thank the French league. If he gets 3, even more. Think of Cantona and Evra cases who got 7 and 8 month suspensions.

For Tite, he will now likely get a player who came back from a 3 month injury, played one game, and won't have played any other games ... meaning, he will probably be out of rhythm. That's why Neymar's behavior is irresponsible. Puts in check not only PSG, but the Seleção. But hey, he will learn this time around. I guess when these athletes say they got it wrong, and they will still make mistakes in the future, they aren't kidding. But hey, he is only following his father's example going after Gabigol for messing with his daughter.

Question being raised, which is probably just chasing clicks, is should Tite call up Neymar for CA. Tite set a precedence for not calling Douglas Costa for a couple of friendlies because he spat on a player. Playing the moralist is not good IMO. Now he is being put into a position of being a hypocrite (actually not the first time). His only "saving grace" here is that it's CA and not some friendlies. It's impossible to make the case to leave him out of a CA, on home soil, instead of some meaningless friendlies.

The one thing he needs to do is strip him of captaincy.

 

Agreed. I find it quite ridiculous that this is even being considered.

 

Honestly I think a lot of people would be ok with leaving him out . Which is crazy to say for the best player we have .

 

Yeah, the media definitely has a large role in all of this. If I had to blame anyone in Neymar's camp, it would be Neymar Sr. Up to this point, Neymar Sr seems to have his best interests above Neymar Jrs, but Neymar Jr is never going to see that.

 

Senior profits from any kind of attention Neymar gets -- whether it's positive or negative. He is living the life he wishes he had when he was in his 20s. If Senior really wanted to pull the reins on Neymar and tell him what he is doing is hurting his image and brand, etc., Neymar would have changed some by now.

 

I disagree. Neymar has made his bed. The media is going to talk about it because they know it attracts attention. People on TV are older so of course they will look at Neymar's behavior as immature and criticize it. But you don't have to exaggerate much on Neymar, he provides the material freely and easily. The Carnaval one is the one that was silly. But Neymar doesn't need the media passing their hands on his head ... he has plenty of people around him doing that not giving him shit including his father. This whole thing comes with the package of wanting to be in the spotlight.

Now, this all goes away if he wins a CL or more importantly for Brazilians, a WC. The media definitely turns a blind eye to your behavior if you win. Romario did a lot of shit. He punched teammates in the field, fans in training, said a lot controversial shit. Some of that much worse than Neymar. He got criticized but a lot of people still loved him (unlike Neymar) because he won the WC in 94. He was also less shielded and obviously came back to play in Brazil. And he showed his love for NT when he got cut in 98 and was denied in 02.

If you make a list of Neymar fuk ups that make him unlikeable it's already an extensive one. From shady deal with Barca/Santos, to throwing a bottle at an assistant at Santos, to the CA incident, to trying to invade the refs room after ManU loss, to this punch, arguing with fan after Olympic final. His behavior is definitely petulant and it's no wonder people don't like him. And I haven't even mentioned the rolling around.

Ironically the guy is more of a professional than Ronaldo, Romario, Ronaldinho. Doesn't seem to drink (at least much) or is late to training.

Muricy has been a big supporter of Neymar over all his incidents. But even he can't ignore this.

I discuss balon d'or a bit here but honestly it's just for shits and giggles. I really don't get being bummed about a player not winning it or how much the media has been talking about it as this huge important thing. It has become a big deal I guess since Messi and Ronaldo started racking them up. Too big IMO. Seems too much part of the conversation. I guess in American sports the MVP has always been a big deal and topic of discussion. So you guys are used to it. I don't remember it being that huge of a deal in soccer. Perhaps in Europe it has been. I couldn't care less if Neymar wins a Balon d'Or. All I care about is the WC.

 

I've never seen a player's father be interviewed for 1hr+ in a program like Grande Circulo.

 

It was definitely different back then. I'd say people didn't have a chance to hate on Romario. First, he wasn't viewed as the next craque from 14 years old. So wasn't looked on as a savior from the start. Second, since he was playing in Holland and Spain, there was no visibility into his doings. Then he won the WC (pre-WC he said if they didn't win, you could blame him) and came back. He also won the CA'89. Like I said, if Neymar wins, everything goes away.

However, it's not only Brazilians that hate on Neymar. The international community dislikes him and that is different than any other Brazilian player ever. Rivaldo got some shit for his theater in 02, but that's about it. Everybody else has been admired in international eyes. Neymar, fairly or unfairly, has actually devalued the Seleção's brand. Not that I care much about that.

It's definitely a different stage for Neymar with social media and over-reporting ... but I still mostly blame him. The stage is different not only for him, but for everyone who's a celebrity. He makes himself a very easy target. Everything he has done is easily avoidable. Now even Dani Alves, who cheerleads him in interviews, has said he needs to control himself better. He is obviously probably just answering a reporters question and can't avoid the topic.

 

Romario's play style also didn't lead to criticism. After the WC, he basically spent the rest of his career in Brazil and out of the international spot light. Brazilians loved watching Romario play at home for the most part.

As far as international criticism goes, there are a couple of factors at play. 1) The EPL is the most watched league now and that wasn't the case in the 90s. 2) Fans of the EPL and English footballing culture frown upon diving. 3) Even though many European players dive, South Americans tend to be criticized more for doing it in Europe. Combine the hype with the things mentioned above and toss in the occasional antics, you get the international reaction that you do.

 

It’s true many players dive. Salah is a big diver. Ronaldo still gives you one good flop per game . However, what I think hurts Neymar is that he acts as if he has been shot for the slightest contact . And the rolling around. Ronaldo used to get shit when he acted that way. Now he just dives and looks up. No theatrics .

Having said that some people who actually watch him recognized he has improved after the WC. The ones that don’t will repeat the same story as long as they can.

 

Even when CR7 did it, he still didn't receive the same type of criticism that Neymar receives. CR7 was also a bigger player than Neymar is even in his early ManU days.

I would rather him not diving as much and as you said, yes, he has improved since the WC. I have definitely encountered plenty of people who scoff at that notion. But one of the reasons he does it is to protect himself. He has already been injured by malicious challenges. Like you said, I would tone down the embellishment as it's not fooling anyone nowadays. It's actually hurting him by not receiving fouls on legitimate calls, which happened often during the last WC.

 

I think that (1) my memory might be wrong but Ronaldo didn't do it as often as Neymar (2) enhanced social media + even more hours of coverage and (3) Ronaldo shifted the focus by winning. As I said in another post, much of the criticism will go away if Neymar wins a CL or WC. They'd be forced to put much of that focus on his success.

There is truth to him protecting himself, but he uses as an excuse to exaggerate. Robinho was as slight and wasn't nearly as theatrical.

I was talking to a friend, American obviously follows EPL, the other day, and he said it wasn't the diving that bothers him about Neymar much, it's the theatrics. He is not an average American fan mind you, he plays is actually a really damn good player himself and has coached. So he understands the game very well.

 

CR7 didn't do it for as long as Neymar, but in a 3-4 year stretch at United, he did it just as much as Neymar. I used to watch United quite a bit in the 2000s just to watch them lose.

Yes, winning would help. But the game is much different than it was before when Brazil dominated the world scene. I think it's unfair to hold him to a WC or bust standard that not even Messi can uphold. Winning in Europe would help. He left Barca so he wouldn't be linked to Messi. He probably made a bad gamble going to PSG to achieve status. I guess we will see what will happen and if he does move to Real Madrid to be "the guy."

 

Well, what I mean is that the flopping conversation will be lessened if he wins a CL or WC. The success or bust thing related to WC is for us Brazilians. Messi gets a lot of heat from Argentineans for not winning a WC and some lighter criticism from international voices. That's how it goes unfortunately. The whole team aspect and uncontrollable variables are thrown out the window by most people giving their opinion. If we go back to 98-02, Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo were all criticized constantly. After 02 it's as if they were always "unaminidade" and are untouchable legends.

 

They were criticized for different reasons than Neymar is. From the individual standpoint, sure. But as a collective unit, 98-02 had a better collection of talent than what Neymar has to work with.

 

That's true. I was just using it as an example at how fickle minded they are.

 

It was definitely a gamble that hasn't paid off so far (his move to PSG). It never made sense to me. If he was going to a top league and another big club I'd understand it.

He put himself in a very tough corner. I am sure Madrid still wants him but if Vini Jr. gets going, they will forget about Neymar quickly. They will have the marketable Brazilian they want. With Hazard joining I think it also becomes difficult for Madrid to buy Neymar. A move back to Barca is probably out of question. And I doubt he wants to go live in England.

 

I'd be worried about Casemiro ... his form has dropped dramatically this season. Perhaps it's just the shit show going on at Madrid.

VJr back today with a few mins.

 

That's what I am hoping too. Even after hiring Zidane back, this was already a lost season for them.

 

Edu Gaspar will leave CBF and take a position with Arsenal after CA.