Seleção General Discussion, 2018 and beyond

Discussion in 'Brazil' started by Century's Best, Jul 17, 2018.

  1. samuel_clemens

    Dec 20, 2005
    Los Angeles CA
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    the future doesn't look bright.Even if we manage to win titles, truth is the post-2010 teams are the most lackluster we've ever had in our history. no light at the end of this tunnel. I'm trying to condition myself into watching the post-WC matches and WC qualifiers but its so difficult because they're so ********ing boring. sorry for being negative but its the truth.
     
  2. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I think 2018 WCQ was pretty good to watch under Tite. But injuries, again, really hurt us WC time. And also, CONMEBOL mostly sucks as a barometer.

    Not sure about just saying post 2010 either. I mean, Dunga's first stint, although successful after 2 years in, was pretty awful to watch. The only shining light was the chemistry between Kaka, Robinho, and Luis Fabiano on the counters.
     
  3. samuel_clemens

    Dec 20, 2005
    Los Angeles CA
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    you're right about pre-2010. Can't blame Dunga as the '06 gen was phased out during that cycle, and with less than stellar replacements.

    There was that one match against Equador at the Maracana in late '07 that was reminiscent of old Brazil . Robinho, Gaucho, Kaka. What a joy to watch .

     
  4. samuel_clemens

    Dec 20, 2005
    Los Angeles CA
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    #304 samuel_clemens, Nov 21, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
    what we wouldn't give to have these 4 upfront nowadays uh? Prime Oseas returning as our #9 would be like the manna from heaven. What made these shitty friendlies so fun back then, the sheer volume of craques we had available, and using the Cameroon type matches to test out all possible permutations.
     
  5. Kaka10725

    Kaka10725 Member+

    Jun 1, 2007
    If my memory is correct, that was not a vintage Brazil performance despite the 5 goals. I remember we got booed by our own fans for a poor performance. The Robinho sequence and scoring 4 goals in the last 20 mins or so help cover up a poor performance.

    A better example from Dunga era would be the 6-2 versus Portugal IMO.
     
  6. Kaka10725

    Kaka10725 Member+

    Jun 1, 2007
    Honestly, all the top international teams are lackluster if you comparing them to the past. Neymar is Brazil most talented player now and even he would make the bench on some teams.
     
  7. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    Djalminha along with Zé Roberto and Alex are the three best and most talented Brazilian players in the post-Tetra era who absolutely were World Cup material and who did not win it with Brazil in 2002. That team was packed and competition was tight, so not making it was going to happen to one or another player.

    Denílson... ah, I remember his last game with SPFC. He cried after he led my team to a victory over Corinthians for the Campeonato Paulista title as he was leaving for Betis. I remember his desperate attempts to dribble past tough French full-backs in the Stade de France and more tears from him as Brazil lost. And I then remember his Garrincha impersonation versus four Turkish players in the 2002 semifinals.

    And I remember very little else from him. What a disappointment.

    Giovanni was amazing at Barcelona. I think many fans today however remember that less than they should because of Rivaldo and Ronaldinho Gaúcho also tearing defenses apart while playing for Barcelona.

    Oséas... the most vivid moment I remember of him was when he scored the second goal for Palmeiras against Deportivo Cali to ensure his team would go to PKs (which Palmeiras won) in the 1999 Libertadores final's return match. He revealed a white t-shirt saying "450 anos Salvador" to show his pride in his Bahia roots.

    I think that what we need to remember is that in 1996, Brazil still had NT-level players regularly playing in Brazil. It's been so long this hasn't been the case that to think that was the case at one point is odd to us.

    We are in a way stuck in an "entressafra" which is ironic because we still have many outstanding players. But with Romário & Bebeto, Rivaldo & Ronaldo & Ronaldinho Gaúcho & Kaká as the biggest names of the two previous generations, Neymar and Gabriel Jesus and Firmino are going to be VERY hard-pressed to perform at a high level.
     
  8. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    But if Neymar had been born in almost any other country, he'd be a guaranteed starter no ifs ands or buts. Imagine Paraguay, Bolivia, Mexico, Portugal, or Nigeria having Neymar as one of theirs. Would he not be the man around whom their teams would be built?
     
  9. Kaka10725

    Kaka10725 Member+

    Jun 1, 2007
    Neymar would start on pretty much every team now. Speaking of Neymar, I was looking at a segment on ESPN FC and they pick Mbappe as a bigger lost than Neymar which I find ridiculous as Neymar is still PSG best player. The diving at the World Cup has tarnish him badly IMO at this point only trophies can silence people with Neymar as the driving force.
     
  10. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    It crossed my mind that Neymar may be faking injury to miss the CL and knock PSG out so he can GTFO next season. But I think I am being a bit too cynical :ROFLMAO:
     
  11. Kaka10725

    Kaka10725 Member+

    Jun 1, 2007
    You could make an arguement that Neymar has atleast performed at a higher level on the NT than Kaka, Bebeto and Ronaldinho but they have superiour team and individual accolades.
     
  12. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    Neymar's finest moment with Brazil has been, other than his goals in WCQ, the 2013 Confederations Cup. The three players you named all won the World Cup and in Neymar's defense, as you said, had better teammates. Ronaldinho "only" had Ronaldo and Rivaldo to play with. Bebeto had Romário. Compared to what those guys were and had as teammates, Neymar is a lonely star.
     
  13. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Teams you play in the WC can make or break you. I bet had the 94 team played some better teams they would could have easily been knocked out. We still won on PKs against a team with crippled Baggio and Baresi. In that case, we'd be talking about how terrible Dunga, Mazinho, Mauro Silva, Aldair were and how Romario and Bebeto choked. As we know, Rivaldo was heavily criticized throughout his whole NT career until after 2002 WC. Cafu, who's an unanimous legend today was always heavily contested. Roberto Carlos as well. The 2002 team was also heavily benefited from the draw.

    Had we gotten some breaks in 2014 (let's say Germany chokes vs Algeria as they nearly did), we'd be talking about how great Oscar, Paulinho, Fred were.

    The only team that breaks that mold was the 82 one.
     
    afar repped this.
  14. Kaka10725

    Kaka10725 Member+

    Jun 1, 2007
    When you think about it, Kaka trophy haul for the NT really consist of 2 confederations cup. He participated in zero Copa America’s and won a WC that he was a non factor in. His exploits in Europe is what really set him apart from Neymar.
     
  15. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    It's not something I can agree with as that argument basically means a team wins just by the luck of the draw. The draw is a factor, but a team's preparation, talent, chemistry, management, and experience are all factors.

    I can't think of any team in USA 1994 who could have truly challenged Brazil. Perhaps Romania, but the Swedes took them out, and Bulgaria was good - until Italy took them out.

    In 2002, we did have a relatively easy draw, but that's part of the game. Germany reached the final after ousting Paraguay, the United States, and South Korea. They were far from being the Germany of 1990 or of 2014, but they got there fairly. And some claim Argentina would have cruised to the final without problems had they been in our group, in our place - but given their defeat to England in the group stage, it's quite possible the English would have defeated them in the quarterfinals. The Sweden of that year was quite limited - Senegal had little difficulty with them. And we would have matched Nigeria's athleticism.

    As for 2014, France may very well have defeated Algeria in the quarterfinals and then defeated Brazil in the semifinals. I doubt we'd be bragging about Paulinho and Cone (I mean, Fred).
     
  16. Estuardo A. Lopez

    Jul 9, 2014
    Club:
    AC Milan
    My current problems with Tite's Brazil are quite simple: There are some players that should no longer be on the team and that Tite should infuse himself with more bravery in his selections.
    Hopefully, as soon as Vinicius Jr, Rodrygo and Paulinho are finished with the U-20 and U-23 duties, and if they are any good, they should be introduced into the senior team. I know that Vinicius, for one, occupies Neymar's position. That should not matter. If France can have a 19 year old Mbappe leading the forward line, then why shouldn't Brazil do the same with Pulinho, Rodrygo and Vinicius? At least Tite should experiment, if he's still around.
     
  17. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Because winning the CA is being made a requirement. Plus, he wants to have some experience on the team to do a transition period.

    But neither Rodrygo nor Vinicius are even close to the level Mbappé is yet. They should feature in some friendlies off the bench. Not sure about Paulinho.
     
  18. Kaka10725

    Kaka10725 Member+

    Jun 1, 2007
    I don’t even know who they replace this earlier in their careers. The positions they play has the most talent and competition. I wouldn’t call them just because they are talented. If their play warrants it, they will be called.
     
  19. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Well .. that's another problem. Vinicius Jr. for example basically plays in Neymar's position. And I think Rodrygo as well.
     
  20. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Argentina was playing the best football of the tournament until Maradona got popped. We were solid. A combative midfield, but as we all know it lacked creativity. I still think had we lost the PKs in the final, many of those players would be labelled quite differently.

    The England x Argentina game in 2002 was tight and could have gone either way. Nobody outplayed nobody in that game. Argentina peaked early like we have done a couple of times recently. Some players were half injured or off form come WC time if I remember correctly.

    You can only beat the teams in front of you, but that doesn't mean we can analyze and scrutinize the team as opposed to just judging the teams based on the final result.
     
    afar repped this.
  21. samuel_clemens

    Dec 20, 2005
    Los Angeles CA
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Neymar's had the benefit of having an entire team playing around him unlike those other guys, which is unprecedented in the history of the selecao. He's been the undisputed titular absoluto since he debuted at freaking 17 years old, almost a decade ago. all due to lack of good competition in his position.

    Even Pele in his heyday was not irreplaceable. when he was injured in '62 Amarildo and Garrincha got the job done. Romario spent nearly half of selecao years suspended due the to feuds he had with coaches. Can you imagine Felipao or any coach leaving Neymar out of a WC nowadays because he banged a stewardess or something like that? lol that's career suicide

    Neymar is probably gonna go down as the top striker with the most appearances in the history of the selecao when it's all said and done, but people in the know wouldn't place him in the all-time top 10.
     
    afar repped this.
  22. samuel_clemens

    Dec 20, 2005
    Los Angeles CA
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I dunno about that. Entressafra to me was the 2006 to 2010 period. Where guys were making their WC debut at 29 years old like Elano, Maicon and L Fabiano. and some aging Pentas hanging in there like G Silva and Lucio. Then after 2010 the Ganso / Pato generation was supposed to take over, but that never happened. To me when you have a dwindling talent pool for the past 12 years and counting it's no longer and entressafra, it's a crisis.
     
  23. Doc_Exec

    Doc_Exec Member

    Jul 7, 2004
    What if he wins a World Cup? Let's wait before judging him. He has the talent but probably not the supporting cast. Maradona played with Batistuta, Caniggia, Burruchaga etc. Who does Neymar have to convert chances he creates? G Jesus, Firmino etc. are not good enough (at least at the moment). Neymar is not the type who can score on his own and win. Even Zico, Falcao etc. got stuck because the striker wasn't converting the chances they were creating.
     
  24. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I wouldn't put it completely on the strikers. How many chances do you remember Neymar creating for Fred in 2014 ? How many chances did he create for Jesus in 2018 ?

    There is some truth about Fred in 2014 that he didn't score because he just didn't get the ball. Same goes for Jesus who had very little real scoring chances.
     
  25. Doc_Exec

    Doc_Exec Member

    Jul 7, 2004
    I think the strikers are worse than before, and that is the main problem. They can't create chances on their own, nor can they finish half chances. At least, GJ and Firmino can hustle and chase down opponents. Fred was a log. Brazil had the same problem when R9 was injured. All those who replaced him could not score. As a result, Brazil started struggling even with Rivaldo etc. in the team. It's not only about creating chances on a platter (by the Neymars) but also about taking up positions that can be found (the instincts, finishing ability etc.).
     

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