Seleção 2014-15: Dunga II Begins -- Post Cup, Pre Qualifiers [R]

Guigs · Jul 10, 2014

Mengão86 said: ↑

If Mano's team displayed an amazing defense and dynamic offense, he wouldn't have been fired, despite the results. He would have come under scrutiny for sure, though.

There are always going to be some idiots that call manager things. In some cases, they may be right (I've seen a midfield of 5 volantes before...) but in most cases, it's an over exaggeration.

Tite's Corinthians was very good defensively, but I wouldn't call him a retranqueiro. His fullbacks had to play both sides of the ball. Paulinho was his segundo volante and he had the freedom to make runs into the box to support the attack. He gave Danilo total freedom without any major defensive responsibilities. His wingers were required to track back and close off the midfield while his team didn't possess the ball. Tell me how Mourinho and Simeone are much different, yet they are praised for their work....
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Exactly! this is what I mean about the people talking that we don't have "modern" coaches, we do.. it's just a matter of minimizing what we have since we lost the WC..

Edit: like people asking for Pep once again..

Century's Best · Jul 10, 2014

Mengão86 said: ↑

It's what I suspected without looking at the history -- we kept coaches way back in the past.
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Cláudio Coutinho was the most recent example - 1978. Contrast that with Argentina's federation, who kept Marcelo Bielsa on the job after his team fell in the group stage in 2002. It was he who resigned in 2004 - the new contract was for him to stay on board until 2006. CBF would never do that.

Mengão86 · Jul 10, 2014

Guigs said: ↑

Exactly! this is what I mean about the people talking that we don't have "modern" coaches, we do.. it's just a matter of minimizing what we have since we lost the WC..
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Modern doesn't always equal offensive. Sure, in a dream scenario, I think everyone would like us to playing an offensive, free flowing brand of football. Tite provides a proven system that works and which other manager across the world implement with success and are praised.

This current generation is suited to play that style of football than a free flowing game. We can't force a square peg in a round hole for the sake of playing a certain style. When we develop more players that are suited to a free flowing game, we will make the necessary change to adapt to the talent.

Mengão86 · Jul 10, 2014

For those who say we lack talent, give these players 4 years to develop and we'll see if we won't have any top tier talent:

Just an idea of what could be possible. You still have players like Lucas, Firmino, Gabigol, Thalles, etc (players that we may not even be looking at right now) for the attacking midfield and striker positions.

Guigs · Jul 10, 2014

Mengão86 said: ↑

Modern doesn't always equal offensive. Sure, in a dream scenario, I think everyone would like us to playing an offensive, free flowing brand of football. Tite provides a proven system that works and which other manager across the world implement with success and are praised.

This current generation is suited to play that style of football than a free flowing game. We can't force a square peg in a round hole for the sake of playing a certain style. When we develop more players that are suited to a free flowing game, we will make the necessary change to adapt to the talent.
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I think we have the talent to play free flowing actually.

Imagine this selecao under Tite

Jefferson

Mario Fernandes
T. Silva
Dede
Marcelo

Paulinho
Williams
Oscar
Coutinho

Neymar
Damiao

explanations
Jefferson because I think he's our best GK
Mario - extremely solid defensively and when I watched him at Gremio he would support the attack extremely well
T.Silva - no need
Dede - for set-pieces, ability to read the game which would cover for our attacking wings (remember this guy covered for Fagner and Marcio Careca for a WHOLE DAMN YEAR)
Marcelo - best passing LB in the world and most talented for sure

Paulinho - under the Tite system he would be back at what he does best, controlling the midfield like it's nobody's business
Williams - Can't believe people don't rate this guy as one of the best destroyers we have.. and he can pass!!!
Oscar - we know he can track back and now he'll have additional support on the midfield
Coutinho - the additional support that can pass the ball and run back on defense

Neymar - playing like he did in Santos not really with a set position
Damiao - Tite loves a target guy with this team around him he would flourish

Guigs · Jul 10, 2014

Mengão86 said: ↑

For those who say we lack talent, give these players 4 years to develop and we'll see if we won't have any top tier talent:

Just an idea of what could be possible. You still have players like Lucas, Firmino, Gabigol, Thalles, etc (players that we may not even be looking at right now) for the attacking midfield and striker positions.
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I think David Luiz cycle with the selecao might be over, but he wants to be there for sure. Then again it might be David Luiz in 2018 and not T.Silva due to age.

Mario Fernandes to me HAS to be taken seriously at this point.
William might be too old in 2018 for that position, we will likely have another "unknown" player come up and be at that position, he's a dime a dozen kind of position.

I don't like Sandro, during his Olympic team stint he was horrible at marking, seemed to run more after the ball then to actually mark players or zones. Lucas Leiva I do like

Mengão86 · Jul 10, 2014

It would be great if Damiao would come around, but I'm not banking on it. It would be a nice bonus.

Willians? Agree, great destroyer, but I question other parts of his game that just aren't up to the level. He's also a notorious hot head....

Mengão86 · Jul 10, 2014

Guigs said: ↑

I think David Luiz cycle with the selecao might be over, but he wants to be there for sure. Then again it might be David Luiz in 2018 and not T.Silva due to age.

Mario Fernandes to me HAS to be taken seriously at this point.
William might be too old in 2018 for that position, we will likely have another "unknown" player come up and be at that position, he's a dime a dozen kind of position.

I don't like Sandro, during his Olympic team stint he was horrible at marking, seemed to run more after the ball then to actually mark players or zones. Lucas Leiva I do like
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As far as the CB position goes, just pick your preference -- I don't think you can really go wrong. There's also Marquinhos and Doria who will emerge...

If Mario Fernandes comes through, great. Probably would be the most complete option as far as support and defense goes if he lives up to his Gremio potential. If not, we have Rafael and Danilo.

I think Willian still could at least remain part of the squad. Like I said, we have other options for the position...

I think you are being a bit harsh on Sandro. Just look what happened to Paulinho at Tottenham. Sandro also made the mistake of going there. Hopefully, Pochettino will use them to their strengths and they'll have the experience as a DM pairing heading into 2018.

Guigs · Jul 10, 2014

Mengão86 said: ↑

As far as the CB position goes, just pick your preference -- I don't think you can really go wrong. There's also Marquinhos and Doria who will emerge...

If Mario Fernandes comes through, great. Probably would be the most complete option as far as support and defense goes if he lives up to his Gremio potential. If not, we have Rafael and Danilo.

I think Willian still could at least remain part of the squad. Like I said, we have other options for the position...

I think you are being a bit harsh on Sandro. Just look what happened to Paulinho at Tottenham. Sandro also made the mistake of going there. Hopefully, Pochettino will use them to their strengths and they'll have the experience as a DM pairing heading into 2018.
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The difference is that Paulinho is tactically sound, he had an area to cover and he wouldn't leave that area to run after the guy with the ball. I know people don't like when I say this, but Paulinho occupied his space very well!

Chasing after the ball or a player when he's not trying to get past you is a waste of time, opens up areas behind you. But looks like a player is trying harder, even if it's detrimental to the team.

Mengão86 · Jul 10, 2014

Guigs said: ↑

The difference is that Paulinho is tactically sound, he had an area to cover and he wouldn't leave that area to run after the guy with the ball. I know people don't like when I say this, but Paulinho occupied his space very well!

Chasing after the ball or a player when he's not trying to get past you is a waste of time, opens up areas behind you. But looks like a player is trying harder, even if it's detrimental to the team.
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Ask Spurs fans what Paulinho and Sandro both were doing on defense during last season....Or even better, go ask Tim for his take.

Guigs · Jul 10, 2014

Mengão86 said: ↑

Ask Spurs fans what Paulinho and Sandro both were doing on defense during last season....Or even better, go ask Tim for his take.
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I actually just texted my buddy, he's a Spurs fan from London but i haven't seen 1 game with him last year cause I moved north a bit, will be interesting what he has to say, he loved the Bale sale last year unlike a lot of spurs fans.

arun10 · Jul 10, 2014

Isn't Rafael going to be the starting goal keeper for NAPOLI this season? This could be his season to be the number one goalkeeper for Brazil.Is there anybody else other than Diego Alves who is good enough to be considered for 2018 WC?

Guigs · Jul 10, 2014

He says nobody looked good, didn't matter who was put into play, he scored for us which is a good thing since none of our forwards seemed to be able to but messi couldn't save our team last year

Guigs · Jul 10, 2014

arun10 said: ↑

Isn't Rafael going to be the starting goal keeper for NAPOLI this season? This could be his season to be the number one goalkeeper for Brazil.Is there anybody else other than Diego Alves who is good enough to be considered for 2018 WC?
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I always feel like Renan did the stupidest thing to go over to corinthians when he did... They removed all of his confidence and destroyed his career by putting him face to face with the Gavioes.

Mengão86 · Jul 10, 2014

@DoentesPFutebol: Segundo PVC, a CBF deverá propor a continuidade do trabalho a Felipão. Mas, ainda segundo ele, Felipão deverá se demitir do cargo.

@ESPNagora: Andrés diz que demitir Mano foi erro, detona Del Nero e dispara: 'manter Felipão é loucura'. LEIA: http://t.co/amyDCgchGA #ESPNnaCopa #BRA

Mengão86 · Jul 10, 2014

arun10 said: ↑

Isn't Rafael going to be the starting goal keeper for NAPOLI this season? This could be his season to be the number one goalkeeper for Brazil.Is there anybody else other than Diego Alves who is good enough to be considered for 2018 WC?
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He's one to look out for. I rate him, but I'm worried about how he will bounce back from injury and even the period of inactivity he had prior to his injury. If r can regain form and continue to develop, he'll be in the mix.'

For the time being, Jefferson and Diego Alves are the clear options to take over the #1 shirt.

leonidas · Jul 10, 2014

We need new coaching blood. It's the same tired names over and over again. And Tite, please?

Look Holland - Van Gaal going to United. His young assistant, Blind, is set to take over the Dutch team right after. Wonderful experience - and Kluivert too gained valuable insight. This, my friends, is how you do it.

Guigs · Jul 10, 2014

Mengão86 said: ↑

@DoentesPFutebol: Segundo PVC, a CBF deverá propor a continuidade do trabalho a Felipão. Mas, ainda segundo ele, Felipão deverá se demitir do cargo.

@ESPNagora: Andrés diz que demitir Mano foi erro, detona Del Nero e dispara: 'manter Felipão é loucura'. LEIA: http://t.co/amyDCgchGA #ESPNnaCopa #BRA
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see it starts.. now all the experts are back questioning every decision like they already knew this was going to be the outcome..

NotreDameFlamengo · Jul 10, 2014

I'm a big fan of Willians. He should at least get a look.

NotreDameFlamengo · Jul 10, 2014

Lucas Piazon is another young guy to watch. He should at least make the Olympic squad.

Guigs · Jul 10, 2014

NotreDameFlamengo said: ↑

Lucas Piazon is another young guy to watch. He should at least make the Olympic squad.
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I think we have better talent up and coming for the olympics inside Brazil. Too many players pop up all the time at that age group.

arun10 · Jul 10, 2014

NotreDameFlamengo said: ↑

Lucas Piazon is another young guy to watch. He should at least make the Olympic squad.
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How good is this Mosquito guy??
And Is there any chance of Leandro Damiao and Pato finding their form back?Pato is still young for a guy who has traveled so much.Just can't forget his first few seasons in Milan.Even in 2010 he was very good when Leanardo was there.How can a player go down like this at this tender age?
Is it lack of motivation or is he an alcaholic like Adriano?

arun10 · Jul 10, 2014

I still think it's the influence of Ronaldnho and Robinho which lead to Pato's problems.There is no other explanation to his constant injuries other than parties and women.

leonidas · Jul 10, 2014

Guigs said: ↑

I think we have better talent up and coming for the olympics inside Brazil. Too many players pop up all the time at that age group.
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Piazon needs to be tied ASAP before Italy steals him.

Guigs · Jul 10, 2014

arun10 said: ↑

How good is this Mosquito guy??
And Is there any chance of Leandro Damiao and Pato finding their form back?Pato is still young for a guy who has traveled so much.Just can't forget his first few seasons in Milan.Even in 2010 he was very good when Leanardo was there.How can a player go down like this at this tender age?
Is it lack of motivation or is he an alcaholic like Adriano?
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Injury.

Mosquito is making his first steps into the professional level this year, but we also have Thalles (another VdG prospect) who seem to be the front runners for the future.