Seeding for State Cup

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by sam_gordon, May 28, 2018.

  1. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    How does your state handle seeding for State Cup (or whatever end of year tournament)?

    In Kentucky, there is a Premier League (10 teams) and Select League (8 in top division, 9 in 1st division) for regular season. Premier League is higher. (NOTE: # of teams is based on my son's age group)

    So you'd think they'd take the league results to seed for State Cup, right? Nope. They take LAST year's State Cup results and use those to seed the top 4. The rest of the groups are random draw.

    Does that seem strange to anyone else?
     
  2. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    No, not really…not sure its universal, but certainly not uncommon to seed based on last year’s cup results….usually with the caveat that team hasn't turned over too much...
     
  3. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
  4. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    That just seems strange to me. Changing even just a handful of players (and/or a coach) can change the dynamic of a team.
     
  5. illinisoccer

    illinisoccer Member

    Aug 15, 2005
    Chicago, IL
    The seeding and scheduling for high school levels is done before any of the teams have played. Typically the spring draw is held in February. Many of the top teams play in tournaments during winter but not against each other so last year’s results are really the only tool they have.
     
  6. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    OK, just to continue the discussion... why does the seeding and draw need to be done so early?

    I'm in Kentucky. They set the brackets for state cup in March or April, and we play the group stage Memorial Day weekend. But why do they need to be set so early? If you know the dates and locations you're playing, you can make your travel arrangements.

    We've been to many a tournament where game times & opponents aren't set until three days before. So why do State Cups need to be set so early?
     
  7. illinisoccer

    illinisoccer Member

    Aug 15, 2005
    Chicago, IL
    In Illinois, some teams have to play a qualifier to get in the group. They have until a certain date to play that game. Then there is a like a 4 week window to play the 3 group games. Those group games needed to be completed a week before the knockout stage. This is the first time they have done 8 teams in the bracket portion. The quarterfinals and semifinals were held this weekend and the finals are next weekend. I think they wanted less games the final weekend due to changes need to accommodate proms and graduations.
     
  8. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    Wow. So the group stage isn't a designated weekend? That's what we have here... group stage was this past weekend, knockout/finals is next weekend.

    ETA: I wonder if it's because of the number of teams. I just looked through all the boys/girls age groups for Ky and they only advance at the most 4 teams. So there are less than 16 teams in any given age group even entered into the Cup.
     
  9. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Sam_G, so I assume you want to use current league season standings to make these seedings…yet, as it currently stands, that could cause all kinds of issues…

    First, the (KY Premier) league season runs until June 15th….so you can’t use final standards as it currently stands, forcing you to either to shorten the season (by at least a month) or base seedings on some mid-point in the season…

    Which then might cause all kinds of issues and shenanigans given the fact the league is (largely) self-scheduled….
     
  10. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    Yes, I think you use current league standings. Or, say "current standings as of 5/22" (for this year). That would behoove the top teams into getting all of their games in.

    Or, if you need to, "any games not played by 'x' dates will be counted as a draw for the purpose of State Cup seeding".

    Maybe it's not possible and I'm the only one who thinks looking at results from last year is strange.
     
  11. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    I think you are making this far more complicated than necessary…

    And, I think you degrade the integrity and prestige of the league by such measures…

    The league shouldn’t be about cramming in as many games in as fast as possible in order to get a high seending…vmmv.
     
  12. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    In my son's version of the league, there are 10 teams. So that meant 9 games needed to be completed. We start training in the middle of October (after the HS season ends). So you'd usually have 2-3 weekends available between October & November, a couple in March, all of April, and three weeks in May. That's 12 weekends for 9 games. If you face a league team in a tournament, you can agree that game will serve as the league game also (MRL has the same rule).

    Granted, if you have a streak of bad weather, that will affect things, but it doesn't seem too difficult or trying to "cram in" games.
     
  13. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    What I find amusing is we just had the group stage this weekend... knockout stage is next weekend. According to the seedings they used from last year, in the knockout stage, #1 is playing #4 and #2 is playing #3.

    However, when you look at the final league standings, in the knockout stage, #1 is playing #4 and #2 is playing #3.

    Last year's results v. Final league Standing this year
    #1 --> #2
    #2 --> #4
    #3 --> #1
    #4 --> #3

    Interesting.
     
  14. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    With so much riding on the outcome of the final standings, there might be an advantage to hold off playing league games longer than normal…more training, team in better sync, etc….so those Oct/Nov, that normally happen now, might not under your scenario….

    Hey, I am not saying you can’t make a system like you are talking about work…I just think that if you give clubs/coaches an opportunity to game any system, some will (or at least attempt to)…and I think your suggested system offers far greater possibility for that, for very little benefit…
     
  15. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    I have no problem with poking holes in my theory. It's not something I'm saying must (or even needs to) be done. I just thought it would be a good conversation.

    But is going back to last year's results a good indicator? Especially in the older groups, the addition or subtraction of a single player won't make much difference (or shouldn't). But 3-4 players? Sure it could. A different coach? I'd say "yes".
     
  16. mwulf67

    mwulf67 Member+

    Sep 24, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    #17 mwulf67, May 29, 2018
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
    Yet that's how they do it even in the highest of Cup completions….Championship League…they use last year’s standings, even though it not uncommon for major roster/coaching changes to occur over the summer….

    Chelsea could spend millions and upgrade to the best team in the EPL next year, and they still won’t be in CL…City could sell half their team and be shit, and still be playing in Europe….not saying either is likely to happen…but my point being, while not perfect, using last year’s results is easy and good enough…

    The most over-analyzed, down to wire, seeding ever is March Madness, and they still get a lot wrong….at some point, you just have to line up and play….
     
    bigredfutbol repped this.
  17. Terrier1966

    Terrier1966 Member

    Nov 19, 2016
    Club:
    Aston Villa FC
    i agree with wulf, might not be a perfect system but it is simple and not subject to shenanigans.

    I can imagine how many teams would try to maneuver their schedule to play with the standings...including losing.

    Once or twice our state got to send two teams in an age group (rotating wildcard to ensure full brackets). Other than that, it doesn’t matter who and when you play...you have to beat everyone to be the champs.
     
  18. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    FWIW, the #3 seed (us) won State today. We won it over the #4 (Wild card) seed that we had to beat in group.

    We were #1 in the state league this year. The runner up was #3 (they beat the #2 in the semi-final).
     
    mwulf67 repped this.

Share This Page