This is for coaches, parents, players on both sides of involvement with secondary players. I want to hear your thoughts on the use/abuse/misuse of secondary players at any youth level. We have experienced the topic from both sides. Our oldest soccer player has benefitted from it. There were two teams from her school at her grade level who were miles apart skill wise. Make no mistake, her team worked hard, but I have heard that our coach may have poached the better players from the other team, only furthering the divide. The teams never really integrated. The other coach left and our coach took both teams. My daughter got to plat secondary for the other team. It was great for her in terms of taking a more central role on a team and building confidence, but she also became a primary striker. Today only one girl from the other team is still playing. Our next soccer player had the opposite experience. Through the wonders of age/grade level change confusion, her team of mostly 2nd graders (with s couple older girls) got in a predominantly 3rd/4th grade hybrid league. They failed to correct the issue in the spring and after a fall of lopsided games they initiated some help from the 3rd grade team. It was nice until you realized 1) our tactics involved three forwards roaming @75% of the field and the three defenders occupying a small area near the goal, 2) our coaches felt the need to play the secondary players almost exclusively in those three forward roles. I would have just liked to see all of our players get a chance or for more mingling of the squad. Maybe let those three control our non existent midfield. It for like became more into the results.
Sorry, not sure I am completely understanding you definition of “secondary players”…I am correct in understanding it as outside, typical better, “guest” players being bought in to help a team win?
Sorry, not sure how it works outside of my small club. The way I understand it in theory, is that secondary are players that play on another team, but help supply depth. I think they get registered somehow,but not on your core team.
My daughter (was a u9) played up when a u10 team needed players. It did wonders for her game but the coach played her at her position though.
Yeah, yeah, sounds like the same thing as we would call a guest player….like you say, usually (but not always) from the same club, but different team…. Guest players should only be used, on a temporary basis, to help field a team, where due to a temporary lack of players, the team wouldn’t be able to so…in other words, guest players should only be used when absolutely necessary…they shouldn’t be used to bring in a few or bunch of “ringers” just to win a meaningless youth soccer game… Guest playing is a fairly common practice….and yeah, it can be abused…and kinda sounds like it is in your 2nd example….at that age level, a) no one should be pidged holed into only defense, all-time forward or full time goalie. etc…and b) everyone should be getting equal and comparable play time, guest player or not…. However, guest playing can be a great opportunity as well…like Incolnpk’s daughter, my son has guest played on several older and/or different teams over the years…usually a great experience, but always a temporary one…
I'm OK with players within a club playing "up" either up an age group or "b" team player playing on an "a" team, but I'm not wild about an "a" team player playing on a "b" team even if that team is short rostered. Of course, I also don't believe in over-rostering the "b" team in order to allow "a" team players to play on both teams (playing on "a" as a guest). I just think you should be fair about the whole thing. If you slot your team in the middle to low division based upon the skill level of the rostered players, the other team should not expect you to show up with a couple of ringers. It's not sportsmanlike to the other team or even the kids rostered on the lower team As far as playing time, I think the guest player should come in as a sub and relieve the rostered players when they need a break. I don't think they should start or play most of the game (except if you are guesting as goalkeeper I suppose). I have witnessed both sides of this coin and anything outside of these parameters makes me uncomfortable, regardless as to whether it involves or affects my kid. Last year my U8 kid played "down" a couple of times from the A team to the B team and played virtually the entire game (made me uncomfortable to see rostered team members on the bench) because there was no younger team to pull from. And over the years with my older kid, I've watched a year younger A team players play up for a game with either an older B or A team and get preferential playing time in lieu of older, rostered players and that makes me uncomfortable as well (even though it wasn't my kid sitting on the bench). A team is a team, you put together a roster; play with it. I can understand pulling from the higher team in U8 because there's nowhere else to pull from, but for gosh sakes, make my kid a sub! For this reason, I'm not a fan of player pools and I'm not a fan of gaming the system. That's my opinion anyway.
For league play, I don't like dual-rostering or allowing guest players. Unfortunately, you can't trust the adults to be sane about it. We had a situation this spring season that I thought only happened in fictionalized profiles of crazy youth soccer coaches. It was the last game of the season and my son's team had a chance at finishing first in their flight if they won, depending on the outcome of another game. The opposing team has two kids show up and the coach writes, in pen, their names onto the roster. They're bigger than anyone else, though that doesn't necessarily mean older (though not sure this coach should get the benefit of the doubt). He gives the ref a story about them being on the "B" team, that they've been dual-rostered all season and he doesn't know why they're not on the version the league has. Ref seems dubious, but lets them play. They score all 3 of the other team's goals, but my son's team hangs on for a 4-3 win. My son's coach seems more relieved than anything else. He's a young guy and didn't want to come across as a crybaby to the league, but the whole thing was just absurd and it was pretty obvious this guy was trying to pull a fast one. Since it didn't have an effect on the outcome, he was content to let it pass. For what it's worth, I agreed with him. Ultimately that coach, and the parents, have to live with the fact that they'd do something like this over U9 soccer. When it come to league play, it should be simple. You have a roster and the players have cards. If the player isn't on the roster, they don't play.
Very well put…guest playing is tricky, the concept it well-meaning and simple, but with a lot gray area and opportunity to abuse, or to cause hard feelings…. My (a-team) son only played down on the b-team once (and recently)….going into it I was a little worried about that “uncomfortable” feeling you talk about…did not want my son being look at or treated like some kind of “ringer” or whatnot…but it all worked out well (in a sense) The B-team in question was self-imploding late in the season (delusional parent driven, but another story)…4-5 kids quit right before last tournament (1 kid quit between games on the first day of tournament)….the coach just didn’t have a enough players to field a team and didn’t want have to withdraw/not play. So he asked the A-team players….3 volunteered, including my son (just enough to field a team will 2-3 subs; lots of playtime for everyone)….no super studs, just solid players. The coach was thrilled to have them; the kids all knew each other (joint practices) and the guest players were all “no-attitude” type kids (if I do say so myself); and most the remaining parents were grateful for not have to forfeit the tournament…. This was not a very good team to begin with…and the addition for a few A-team players, didn’t change much…they might have helped keep things a little completive, but they still lost every game, but the last one…which was a come from behind 3-3 draw…sometime just not losing is the best victory…. Overall, it was a great experience for my son and I am glad he did it….
I am pretty sure this sort of activity is banned by all leagues. I know this is the case in Illinois. That said - there is abuse. Just this year the Illinois u14 MRL champs (girls) were caught doing this and stripped of their win just this season. I also know that the IWSL was plagued with this years ago. There are issues with leagues allowing for different passes. A known example is: Club places their top girls on a YSSL (boys league) team where they will be pushed harder. At the same time that club rosters that same girl on the A IWSL (girls league) team. That same club is short IWSL girls for the same age group on their C team so they send over the A player but use her YSSL card which they present to the ref. Since the leagues accept these cards (both are IYSL) - there is no way that ref is going to know that the girl is already rostered on the A team.
I reported a club bringing down their B players to play my C team. They needed to beat us to win the C division. Took pictures of the game roster and emailed the IWSL and they had the game as a forfeit within the hour. I even game the other coach a chance not to play his B girls but he said go right ahead.
Funny thing... Just had a conversation about a certain club who I feel leaves their grass 6-7 inches on a crappy field where they schedule games for opponents who train on turf. Can't say this is done on purpose but I can say that in the 7 years of playing this club we have never played them on our home turf fields in a regular seasoned match. And despite them having 3 other beautiful fields, we always end up at the same field which IMO is not acceptable for travel soccer - it's not just the height of the grass either. Two families who were part of the conversation and played for this club prior to coming to our club laughed and agreed with our suspicions.
Really interesting discussions so far! Our club may not be well organized or the registrar is constantly trying to fit people where they want. We are a bunch of individual church/school groups under one organization. I know it may "just" be a rec league, but I think they could do more. We don't really have A / B teams, you get parent of X will coach this team,etc. You might have two teams from the same school, grade or age, who never work together. It's fine for my U7 daughter who has 9 players for 4v4 games, but eventually you play 7v7 and 9v9 (not sure this ever makes it to 11v11) and your team is no longer big enough. My oldest soccer player has a 7 or 8 person roster for her U12 team and her and another girl actually play on a select team. If nobody is added we will end up with almost half the team being guests/secondary. They aren't very transparent either. I would like it to be a big group that is then split, like they do for there actual school teams. (No actual soccer through these schools in this club/league).
This had made headlines nationally, but it's something that happened in my state to a team in my city (Omaha). The way the national and local media reported it: girl has short hair, tournament director or opposing team thinks it's a boy and despite offers to prove otherwise team/club is DQd. In this politically charged environment those were fighting words and that girl became a hero for a day. I had also heard that narrative wasn't the who story. That the club had other anomalies and that the girl may have been listed on her own teams roster as a boy. Pretty sure the people running the tournament could have dealt with things proactively, but I don't know the whole story either. Not sure if that was discussed here, but some of your comments reminded me of it.
MH it sounds to me like your club is relatively new - may be hard to sustain. Are there other options - larger clubs maybe with bigger pools?
I think it's done ok, and I don't know how the other churches/schools are doing it. It could be more of an issue from our side of it, but lots of teams in general. It does sound rough though when I reread it. We haven't explored a lot of options. Our oldest is playing on the select team for the same league. There are clubs in the area we can't afford, but I did see some others had aid/scholarships.
How many teams are there - or players would you say. I helped out coaching for a church soccer program years ago called Upward. They did not have enough kids to sustain most ages. Then you have the birth year change which really hurt smaller clubs. Are your coaches licensed - is there a path forward for them in terms of continued education and continuity from the top down?
I don't know about the coaching. I believe the select team has something. Seems like it is always volunteer parents otherwise. As for the league, I did a little research. We do have one level of 11v11. It's U7 to U14 (no U11 or U13). There are 266 teams listed I think. Assuming some are smaller and some larger, if we go with the bare minimum of players to field a team per division/age, that makes over 1700 players.
One other note:. They are not using the age matrix for in-league games. It applies if you play outside. Not sure why it was like rocket science for some.
I cannot seem to understand this. Are you a member of a USYouth or USClub league or is this just an in house church league?
It's rules are taken from Nebraska state soccer which is a "proud member of USYouth Soccer, US Soccer and USASA.". It's the Catholic Youth Soccer League.
That’s’ a problem/struggle with smaller and/or community type clubs…great for u-littles, especially to keep the cost down…but eventually, and usually at the 11v11 turn, they just don’t have the player pool to field a team…
I think one of the most important things for you to consider would be to ensure that there is continuity amongst the coaches in terms of what the goals of the club are and how to train players. That should be backed up with coaching certification which will progress continued education. You need real coaches, trust me I was that coach at one point in time where I thought I knew I was doing but I certainly and most definitely did not. Just because one plays in high school and our college does not equate them with enough experience to coach even the younger ages where fundamentals are very important. Another solid example is the differences between girls and boys as girls approached 11 years old and older. There are enormous differences and how coaches need to deal with both genders as puberty starts to set in To be even the least effective you have to do a whole lot more than recreational coaches just volunteering.
Yeah, but that’s more on US Soccer than Joe Blow out in Middle America… What you need, what’s ideal, may in fact, not be a reasonable option or even available in your local…. I think we need be very careful about running down clubs/programs, especially sight unseen, just because it doesn’t met some idealist and high standard… I don’t disagree that coaching is tremendously important; and as we grow a Soccer country we are beginning to understand and apply that understanding…. But even today, in most areas, kids still start out playing rec under volunteer parent coaches…and I think we are still a long way from fundamentally changing that paradigm across the board…so far away, it would seem counterproductive to criticize it….