Second goal vs France. Own goal? What?

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by uncchamps2012, Jun 21, 2019.

  1. uncchamps2012

    uncchamps2012 Member

    Jul 9, 2011
    i don’t understand. I watched it five times. I see there was a little deflection , but I don’t get how this was an own goal. Stanford fan scorekeeper?
     
  2. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    May 4, 2002
    According to several people that have looked at it in detail it is clear that the original shot/pass was not going on goal and that the only reason it went in was the deflection. I do not know if that is really correct or not but the goal line technology and multiple replay views that are available to FIFA means that they can see a LOT more and I guess we will just have to trust that they are correct.

    BTW: The VAR technology can be used for that as well as refereeing decisions even under the strict definition of what VAR is to be used for as it would clear up a "case of wrong identification."

    I do not believe that FIFA would do a wrong assignment of a goal as they have no motive and every reason to get it right.
     
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  3. Ethan Frank

    Ethan Frank Member

    Chelsea
    United States
    Jun 11, 2019
    Little deflection? Huge deflection that took an off target shot into the back of the net.
     
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  4. hotjam2

    hotjam2 Member+

    Nov 23, 2012
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #4 hotjam2, Jun 21, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
    your sure this happened vs France?or did I just wake up several days from now?
     
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  5. Semblance17

    Semblance17 Member+

    Apr 27, 2013
    Lighthouse Point, FL
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the correct ruling isn't nearly as clear-cut as either camp would like to portray it and is infinitely debatable. It's all a question of how substantial you think that redirection was toward the goal rather than just upward over the keeper. I don't believe anyone can say with complete certainty that Heath's initial shot wouldn't have made it to the far post without intervention or obstruction. I'm in the Heath goal camp because the defender ultimately deserved very little of the blame for the ball ending up in the back of the net. The way Heath played the ball, which even if not quite on-frame was clearly with that intent, forced her into that deflection, and provided all of the power that carried the ball into the net.

    I will personally log this in my mind as a Tobin Heath World Cup goal, but in this case I understand and respect FIFA's ultimate decision although I think it's ultimately a little unfair to both Heath and the defender. That being said, VAR or no VAR, I have as much general faith in FIFA's ability to make the correct decision as I have in gas station hot dogs.
     
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  6. jackdoggy

    jackdoggy Member+

    May 16, 2014
    Big D
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wait STOP THE PRESSES, Total Shocker:D:D:D:D:D Totally agree BTW. - but without the aid of seeing the replay, I’m still trying to figure out what in the wide world of sports is going on around here. They showed a replay once right after but I was still hugging the guy next to me.
    Bottom Line:
    Tobin was awesome.
    Tobin is awesome.
    Tobin will always be awesome.
    Next Case
     
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  7. Glove Stinks

    Glove Stinks Member

    Jan 20, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Here is my beef. An own goal is loosely defined as an effort to change the direction of a shot to avoid the goal that inadvertently goes in. This was not the case. The defender was simply efforting to get in the way in very close quarters. I liken it to the no call on a handball when the player has their arms to their side and a ball makes contact from a short distance
    If this was an own goal then the 4th goal v Thailand should have been scored the same. At the 49th minute Sam Mewis shot from top of box that was headed straight at the keeper. A defender intervened and deflected the ball into the corner. Goal Mewis (proper call). How is Tobins any different?
     
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  8. Semblance17

    Semblance17 Member+

    Apr 27, 2013
    Lighthouse Point, FL
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The argument is that Tobin's kick on its own (going across the face of goal) was not a shot on goal and that only the deflection put it into the goal. Once again, highly debatable.

    I do like your argument that the defender's effort was never as a re-direction but as a simple block [if not of the ball, than of the player herself] that unfortunately for her simply slightly altered the trajectory of Tobin's blast instead of stopping it dead as she intended.
     
  9. Bob Lamm

    Bob Lamm Member

    Mar 7, 2016
    New York City
    It's great that we've already got a second goal against France when we haven't even beaten Spain yet.

    P.S. If this isn't clear, check the title of this thread. :)
     
  10. Semblance17

    Semblance17 Member+

    Apr 27, 2013
    Lighthouse Point, FL
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh. How did I just now notice this?
     
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  11. Bob Lamm

    Bob Lamm Member

    Mar 7, 2016
    New York City
    LOL. Easy to miss. Many of us are still pondering that goal and how it was credited. But I love that we've beaten Spain and already have two goals against France. Just hoping we're ahead 2-0. :)

    Credit to hotjam2 for being the first to bring this to everyone's attention.
     
  12. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    May 4, 2002
    Something occurs to me after resting. I wonder what the ruling by FIFA would have been if it were the goalkeeper that made the deflection? If it were still "own goal" then I believe they were correct under their rules BUT if it would then become Heath's goal the original call is very much called into question.
     
  13. uncchamps2012

    uncchamps2012 Member

    Jul 9, 2011
    Funny... guess I was thinking ahead. If USA is truly up 2-0 against France after they beat Spain, I promise not to care if it is an own goal or not. If all 3 of crystal dunn’s goals in the final v Germany are called own goals, I will , however , sue fifa
     
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  14. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    OBVIOUS deflection.

    Just cause JP & Ally are stupid do not let it fool you.

    OG was always going to be a possibility. From that angle, real tough to get it on frame at all. Good call.

    Now, disallowing that goal for France vs Brazil? THAT is a bad call.
     
  15. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006

    Fifa magazine did a piece on own goals and concluded that a player needs to make a deliberate play for it to be an own goal and it is always to be assumed that the attacker was trying to score. Deflections or rebounds off a defensive player are not own goals, including the classic case of a ball hitting the post and deflecting of a defender’s back for a goal

    If every time a player touched a ball and it went in were an own goals, all the goals that were touched by a keeper would be own goals.
     
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  16. blissett

    blissett Member+

    Aug 20, 2011
    Italy
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Really? That exact situation happened in the Chile-Thailand match: the ball hit the post, rebounded back through the goal frame and was finally awkwardly deflected into her own goal by GK Boonsing. No way the ball could have gone into goal without Boonsing's deflection, but, although it didn't hit her back, you can hardly call it "intentional": the ball just happened to hit her while she was turning to try to face the situation.

    The goal hasn't been given to the FW: it was recorded as a Boonsing's own goal.
     
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  17. jackdoggy

    jackdoggy Member+

    May 16, 2014
    Big D
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Semb has already called this thus overruling the FIFA Official Scorer.....Goal Heath
     
  18. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    I don’t think she overruled anybody. They check every goal.
     
  19. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    May 4, 2002
    Which is exactly what FIFA's position is on own goal no matter what others "might" want it to be.
    If the ball would, without the defensive player (or players) touch, go into the goal then it is scored as a goal by the shooter.
    If the ball was not going into the goal before the touch by the defender then it is an own goal.
    This is quite simple BUT the judgement as to the ball's original path is somewhat complex particularly with the fact that all replays are two dimensional. (They can be digitally combined to produce a good three dimensional approximation)
    If the people that are saying that the ball would not have gone on goal without the deflection are correct then the goal is an own goal.

    In the quoted situation if the ball rebounds off the crossbar and gains a good deal of backspin and the bounces into the goal then it is a goal for the shooter. In the same way if it happens exactly as I said but the keeper reaches back and sends the ball into a different part of the net than it would go without the GK touch it is still a goal for the shooter.
    Further if the ball is shot at the left side of the net (on goal) and is deflected by a defender (the ball would have gone in without the deflection) and the new trajectory is still on goal and it gets deflected again and then goes in then it is still a goal for the shooter. However if the first deflection is no on goal and the second puts it in then it is an own goal.

    Again if the defender's deflection is what makes the ball go into the net then it is an own goal. It does not matter how hard it is hit or how unavoidable the deflection is if it deflects an off goal shot into the net into the goal it is an own goal.
     
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  20. Ethan Frank

    Ethan Frank Member

    Chelsea
    United States
    Jun 11, 2019
    That one was clearly on target; Tobin's was clearly off target in my opinion. There's your difference.
     
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  21. kolabear

    kolabear Member+

    Nov 10, 2006
    los angeles
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MODERATOR: Do NOT change the title of this thread. It'll take away all the fun (tee-hee!)
     
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  22. Ethan Frank

    Ethan Frank Member

    Chelsea
    United States
    Jun 11, 2019
    The great majority of those shots are on target; Heath's wasn't in my opinion. I also thought Andersson did make a deliberate play; she stuck out her leg in an attempt to block the shot.
     
  23. Ethan Frank

    Ethan Frank Member

    Chelsea
    United States
    Jun 11, 2019
    Just didn't feel like correcting uncchamps2012.
     
  24. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    Sticking your lef out isn’t a deliberate play if it were and the keeper caught it, it would then be a back pass. Is that what you want?
     
  25. Ethan Frank

    Ethan Frank Member

    Chelsea
    United States
    Jun 11, 2019
    Say what? In the context of own goal determinations, that was a deliberate play. What player intentionally turns the ball into his or her own net? I'm not going with the literal definition here; I'm going with a definition that makes sense in this context. The player stuck out her leg (leg to ball, not ball to leg) to deflect an off target shot into the back of the net. Own goal. Agree to disagree.

    Edit: Also, are you telling me there's no other own goal that involves deflections off of extended legs, chest, head, etc? Pretty sure that's not the case. Agree to disagree.
     

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