SEA vs. RSL [R]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by vetshak, Nov 2, 2011.

  1. vetshak

    vetshak Member+

    May 26, 2009
    Minnesota
    12th minute, coming off an injury stoppage, Javier Morales stands right in front of the ball as Erik Friberg is getting ready to take the FK. Has utterly no business standing there. Friberg loses his patience, two-handed shove to Morales' chest. Honestly, I don't even think Morales went down easy, Friberg let him have it.

    Best part... Jair Marrufo sees it all. He charges over, looks like he tells Friberg, "Just a second." Then he turns to Morales sitting on the ground demanding a card for Friberg, and yells at him, "Get up! Don't stand there!" Turns back to Friberg: "Don't push him!" Backpedals 30 yards back across the field.

    That was AWESOME man management!:D
     
  2. vetshak

    vetshak Member+

    May 26, 2009
    Minnesota
    Good PK call in the 54th, but a bunch of weird decisions and mechanics...

    First, Marrufo books Beltran (he of the wicked clearance in the 1st half) for the foul. Not a huge problem with the booking, but he books him while he's sitting on the ground. Kind of a no-no.

    Second, after SEA converts the PK, Friberg rushes after the ball (which rebounded from the net back to Rimando). Friberg tries to rip the ball away from Rimando, who then flops on the ground like a fish. Rimando is booked (rightfully so, I was glad to see Marrufo nail him for the ridiculous dive) but it doesn't appear Friberg was booked for instigating the whole thing.

    Not exactly "by the book" officiating here. Not that I'm criticizing, just kind of interesting. (OK, it does sound like I'm criticizing. Sorry.)
     
  3. ATLref

    ATLref New Member

    Jun 19, 2009
    Felt to me that the penalty was kind of soft for an MLS game. The kind of penalty you get when you're at home, down 3-0 on aggregate, and you've outshot the other team 15-1 in the first half but somehow haven't scored and viewers may be starting to tune out.

    Agree totally about cautioning the player while he's on the ground, especially with that much posture. Looks kind of like showboating.

    The Rimando incident, I don't know. If you let the earlier incident go where the player stood ("statued") in front of the ball and the attacker pushed him down and you just give them both a talking-to, does this incident really merit a card to anyone? (As a side note, the whole "attacker running to the back of the net to get the ball to restart as quickly as possible thing is something I've always found to be ridiculous ... the referee has the time ... even more mind-boggling is I see this happen all the time in high school and college games when the clock is STOPPED ... please, someone, explain to me why).
     
  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, because cards are a tool to manage the game and not just punish specific bad behavior. In the effort to streamline everything and apply consistency across the board, I think many have forgotten that. In the earlier incident that vetshak referenced, Marrufo took a calculated risk and managed a manageable situation without cards. Here, he knows the match just became 2-1 and the intensity level is rising and there are only about 35 minutes left. He picked his spot and so far it's showing to be a good one. Some might dislike that sort of officiating, but I think it's great for the game.

    I think this is one of those cases where many referees just don't get players. They don't care about your watch (or the stopped clock in a college game). They just scored. They scored a big goal, too. All goals are big to an extent, but the ones that get you back within a goal or start a comeback are huge. They want that momentum. They want the feeling of momentum. They want to put the ball back on the kickoff spot and tell the other team, "yeah, we're ready... you better bring it now because we're not stopping." It puts the psychological pressure on the opponent and helps the scoring team. While you ask why the attacking team wants to do it, also ask why the defending team doesn't want to allow them to do so.

    Also, on the whole, I'm really surprised with some of the criticism tonight. Snoods, booking mechanisms, etc. Don't want to jinx the final stretch here, but I think Stott and Marrufo have put on master-class performances of how to manage heated games in intense environments at the top level in our country. Two wonderful performances and it seems the focus here is on stuff that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
     
  5. ATLref

    ATLref New Member

    Jun 19, 2009
    Don't get me wrong. I think Marrufo was terrific. He's doing these games for a reason.

    But I still think it's ridiculous when players in games where the clock stops when a goal is scored (HS, college) rush into the net to get the ball when all that does is invite conflict and it makes absolutely no difference in the game itself. Momentum, really? What's the difference between restarting the game after 15 seconds and after 30 seconds when the clock is stopped anyway?
     
  6. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Saw the last 15 minutes and it was an excellent performance on how to referee the final minutes of a close game.

    I know it doesn't matter, but I'm from the European school of refereeing, but he needs to lose the finger whistle. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. You are a FIFA referee, not an NFL referee.

    I know MLS won't change to a European calender or go to a single table style championship, and I accept it. But can they at least have these games played on a grass. It becomes a different sport on that plastic pitch especially when it starts to rain. The ball is bouncing everywhere. You might as well get some sideboarding and turn into an indoor game. It's ridiculous. Get some grass pitches. If every pitch in England is grass and they have grass pitches in St. Petersburg, I think you can get one in Seattle.
     
  7. vetshak

    vetshak Member+

    May 26, 2009
    Minnesota
    MassRef, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to take away from either referee's performance tonight on the decisions that matter.

    The snood thing in the KC game, the giving cards to players on the ground in this one... they're not huge deals. But by the book, they are wrong. Did Stott have to deal with the snood? Technically, it wasn't a deal-breaker, but FIFA did happen to declare them illegal 7 months ago. US Soccer's 2011-12 Law Changes explicitly states they aren't allowed. So to see a former World Cup 4th official's crew ignoring it... it doesn't set a grand example.

    Cards to players on the ground... in Marrufo's case, again it really didn't matter. That rule is supposed to prevent us from showing cards to injured players. I'm sure Marrufo was caught up in the moment, but nonetheless, you will not find happy assessors when doing this.

    Again, these are minor things. They got the big decisions right.

    ATL, the reason it's a big deal is that the restart on a goal is awarded to the team that is scored on. It's their ball. If they delay the restart, the referee can deal with it. It's not the scoring team's job to get the ball back to the center. If it happens without incident, fine, no big deal. But a few years ago, FIFA said that a attacking player who instigates game disrepute (those words are key... it's not just going for the ball, but causing a brouhaha) after a goal by trying to take the ball away from the defending team shall be cautioned. Friberg wasn't cautioned on this play, only Rimando. And considering Friberg chose to deal with delay in the first half by shoving Morales to the ground, I'm surprised he didn't get a booking for causing this incident.

    College/HS... I agree with you, and have often used this to defuse volatile situations. Happened to me 3 weeks ago... scoring team cuts the lead to 2-1 with 5 minutes left after a PK, tries to take the ball away from the opponents. Before anything gets out of hand, I yell, "Relax, gentlemen, the clock is stopped." Instant relief valve opening.

    Of course, I think a lot of players aren't thinking this at that moment. Even in a match governed by FIFA rules, the referee will probably add time, but players don't think in that language, which is why they do this.
     
  8. RichM

    RichM Member

    Nov 18, 2009
    Orange County, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree. It's the "Evergreen State" after all. I know that refers to trees, but my grandparents retired from Oregon to 22 acres in Washington and things tend to grow well in the Pacific NW.
     
  9. ATLref

    ATLref New Member

    Jun 19, 2009
    On the other hand, how many times do we see matches postponed in England, especially in the lower leagues, because of unplayable pitches? Seems to happen pretty frequently, especially during the winter months. How many times would it happen with a turf pitch? Almost never. I think that players by the time they reach the MLS level are used to playing on both grass and turf. Just like top-level tennis players know how the ball is going to play on clay, grass, and hard courts. It's different but you learn how to adjust.
     
  10. vetshak

    vetshak Member+

    May 26, 2009
    Minnesota
    Last I checked, Moscow's team play on plastic.

    I'm sure Seattle's players would prefer real grass. But they play in a multi-use stadium (with the NFL's Seahawks) and (as mentioned on tonight's broadcast) draw more than 6 of England's Premier League teams to a stadium that can actually seat that many and then some. A grass pitch would get torn up from the dual use. And they're not going to be able to build a soccer-specific grass surface stadium when the city is selling out that park with over double the attendance of any other MLS team for every game.

    Every MLS team that shares its facility (Seattle, New England, Vancouver) has a plastic pitch. Portland also plays on plastic even though JenWeld is soccer-specific. England, Russia, etc. doesn't get the kind of year-round rainy precipitation that the US' Pacific Northwest does. If they had grass, their field would the kind of mudpit Kansas City had tonight... except all year round.
     
  11. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    So it rains alot in the Northwest? It rains and snows alot in England. Everybody in Europe hates the fact that Moscow has a plastic pitch and UEFA made them get a grass one for the '08 Championsl League Final. In Russia they get far worse conditions then in Seattle and most of their pitches are grass. They get frigid winter conditions where they have to warm the pitch so it doesn't get frozen. They get snow and rain. Seattle doesn't get that stuff.

    Get better drainage and better groundsmen. If you want a better product, get a grass pitch. Soccer is meant to played on grass. The fact that Portland has a soccer specific stadium and doesn't played on grass is embarassing. They are just being cheap. The conditions in Russia and England get far worse than in the Pacific Northwest.
     
  12. ATLref

    ATLref New Member

    Jun 19, 2009
    Well, this is kind of my point. You don't caution Friberg in the first half in a situation where you could have cautioned both if you had chosen to deal with it that way. But then you caution Rimando only in a somewhat similar situation in the second half in which Friberg is also involved. If you can manage the first half situation without cards, great, you're Marrufo, you can get away with that. But if you're going to card Rimando later when Friberg is taking the referee's position into his own hands again, why not card both? How does Friberg get to just shove everyone on the field around because they are delaying restarts or failing to respect the distance?
     
  13. ATLref

    ATLref New Member

    Jun 19, 2009
    Nope, never rains in Seattle. Oh wait, did you see the game tonight? Just checked the weather report. Good chance of rain 9 of the next 10 days.
     
  14. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    I agree it was a PK. I have no problem with booking player on ground there. A little aggressive with the mechanics, though.

    Referee should have anticipated scrum for ball after the PK was scored. If ever an attacking player would go and grab for the ball after it was scored, it would be a situation like this. The PK taker even hesitated before going after the ball from Rimando. Ref had ample time to prevent most or all of this but didn't anticipate. ARs could even have reminded him before the shot to get in there if a goal was scored.

    Definitely a dive by Rimando and I agree with the caution and not cautioning the Seattle player, but the overall incident was preventable.
     
  15. DadOf6

    DadOf6 Member

    Jul 4, 2005
    Taylorsville, UT
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know most of the current and former players on RSL and they hate it.

    If it were only how the ball plays it would be one thing, but it beats up their bodies. One former player told me that playing on the turf in Rice Eccles Stadium took so much out of him that he had to retire from MLS a year or two early. He was able to swing a trade but by then he was developing microfractures and he retired so he would not become crippled.

    Jason Kreis tries to rest Jamison Olave as often as possible when RSL play on turf.
     
  16. vetshak

    vetshak Member+

    May 26, 2009
    Minnesota
    I think we are misunderstanding each other. I agreed with you, I think Friberg should have been booked for starting the Rimando mess.

    While his first half shove probably could have been a booking, when you think about it the entire incident was just a bunch of stupid people doing stupid things. Morales stands directly in front of a restart that is ceremonial already because we're coming off an injury. Instead of appealing to Marrufo for 10 yards, Friberg blows Morales off the ball. I think Marrufo was just ticked off he had to deal with any of it... none of the behavior made any sense. Both guys could have been booked, but yelling at them for being morons seemed like a decent way of handling it too.
     
  17. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

    Apr 7, 2004
    Southern NH
    Thought I read somewhere that the EPL stadiums have heat in the ground to keep the grass growing all winter? If so, that's not an expense you will ever get someone to cover around here.

    New England put in grass when Man U came this summer.
     
  18. vetshak

    vetshak Member+

    May 26, 2009
    Minnesota
    Moscow's field is a shared facility (Torpedo and Spartak), and they use turf because (for the same reason there is turf in Seattle) the field would be torn to shreds otherwise (due to multi-team use and the weather).

    The only large teams that I know share a facility are Milan's, but obviously you have a different climate in Milan. In England, Wigan's team shares its facility with a rugby team, and their pitch is a certified disaster by every January.

    I don't dispute that using turf lowers operating costs, and saying that Portland, Vancouver, Seattle, and New England are cheap for doing so, well, yup (though New England is pursuing a soccer-specific stadium with a grass field). I don't dispute that the players hate it. Honestly, I hate it too, because my body feels like it has been jackhammered for 2 days after working a game on it. But if you had to ask me if I'd rather work a game on field turf or a quagmire (and doing HS games on multi-use fields where heavy fall rains have soaked them, I have worked my fair share of quagmires), I would choose field-turf every day.

    If only every team could have a domed stadium with a retractible roof and a grass field on a giant movable platform that can be rolled outside for sunshine and watering like Schalke. Alas.
     
  19. bluedevils

    bluedevils Member

    Nov 17, 2002
    USA
    I really liked how the referee handled this situation with a verbal and visual dressing-down of both players and no cards. But again, wasn't this preventable? After a lengthy delay for an injury, the referee should have managed the restart and not let this happen. He seemed not to be looking at the ball, and didn't realize the opponent standing in front of the ball until the incident was pretty much over.
     
  20. NW Referee

    NW Referee Member

    Jun 25, 2008
    Washington
    I would love to see Seattle put a grass pitch in at their stadium. The problem is a combination of the number of games, the type of sports involved plus the weather. And for the end of 2011 and all of 2012 the Washington Huskies will also be playing on the same field so grass certainly won't happen during that time period.

    American football is extremely hard on a grass field. Add a soccer team playing on the field during the overlapping part of the season which also happens to include the wettest weather and it is exteremely difficult to maintain a decent grass pitch

    The comparison to fields in England or Moscow aren't the same since their stadiums don't have american football teams playing in them and soccer teams are not nearly as hard on a pitch. The one exception in England is the annual NFL game at Wembley. But after that one american football game the pitch gets pretty torn up and is in bad shape for a long time after.

    Easy to complain about it, but hard to come up with a real solution but if you can, you should be able to make some bucks doing it. ;)
     
  21. Emile

    Emile Member

    Oct 24, 2001
    dead in a ditch
    There are many other threads in other forums with informed posts about the how and why of turf fields. As a correction to this thread however, Portland State plays football at Jeld-Wen field. IMO, the J-W turf plays quite well in the rain, but we'll see if that's still true in a few years. Ultimately, fake (or fake-real hybrid) fields are going to be very common all over the world, so get used to it.

    Also, very impressive game by Marrufo.
     
  22. iron81

    iron81 Member+

    Jan 6, 2011
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
  23. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes but the field turf like Juventus put in their new stadium is about as close to real grass as it gets for a fake turf. Not in the same league as the stuff NFL teams use.
     
  24. soccerking1990

    Aug 11, 2010
    Texas
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Am I the only one who laughed at this?
     
  25. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    I thought booking Beltran while he was on the ground was mostly about selling the PK call. All of those players had their arms up pushing/holding each other. So I think the fast caution was to try and say that what he had done was somehow worse than what the other guys were doing.
     

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