The Keiser was still better than Koeman though. Having said that, I would not select Beckenbauer as defender in an All-star Legends team. I would select him as midfielder, DM to be precise.
In terms of defending? No. Beckenbauer was by the way quite slow too in his later, trophy-winning, years. Koeman should not be underrated. Except for Baresi, he was the best libero of his time. He was one of the best rated player of Barcelona for multiple years. He was also Cruyffs favourite player, who received never the same amount of complaints as Laudrup, Romario, Stoichkov, Zubizaretta or any other player did. The reason is quite simple: Cruyff hammered always on the positions and movement of the players, Koeman executed this the best (positional awareness and quickness in thinking was also Beckenbauer's asset in defending, not so much his heading, tackling, shot blocking etcetera). Of course, Koeman had many defensive lapses too, I will never put him in a top 10 of all-time because a defender has to... defend, but if people are not convinced, I will make an effort to find some lapses of Beckenbauer post-1970.
Yes, me too although I doubt whether such a fictional team would work in practice. A team with too many generals and too few soldiers will not work.
I will have to disagree. Beckenbauer was better than Koeman in terms of defending and every other aspect, except FKs and long range shooting. On my fictional team, the biggest generals would be Cruyff and Beckenbauer. But such a team would be impractical more so because many of the greatest players overlap in terms of their best position and role. The defensive side might be easy, but how can Cruyff, Maradona, Pele, Muller and Garrincha play on the same team? Where and how to include Zico and Platini?
Koeman played with a high-line, that is something you should keep in mind. Also: a while ago I calculated the average goals conceded of goalkeepers and the clean sheets. Van Breukelen was very close to the top. Just guess who was in the back-line... I also think that Koeman was better with his long-range passing (not short and medium range) But OK, I will collect some mistakes (in case it is not clear: I do concur that Koeman had many of them too). With Beckenbauer as DM you lack a ball-winner. It will not work because you have too many generals and also too few bodies to defend.
The high-line has nothing to do with Koeman's tackling ability. And he wasn't the only defender in the backline to affect Van Breukelen's clean sheets. No way. Depends what you consider mistakes and what kind of mistakes. But I bet you Koeman had more. You don't know what I lack because I haven't named my team. I only listed players' names to illustrate a point of how impractical is to fit all of them into functional formation due to their overlapping attacking positions/roles. Obviously some great names would need to be sacrificed in order to make the team fit into a functional formation.
But both Koeman and Beckenbauer rarely used the sliding tackle (as opposed to Scirea). And as said before, Beckenbauer was not a God in tackling. He was no Baresi who won '50/50 balls' almost every time. Koeman had also a physical advantage in this respect. Koeman's weak point, even more than Baresi had, was one-on-one situations. He was for example nowhere when he had to face Gascoigne in the form of his life.
Slide tackling is your barometer for measuring greatness in defenders? The greatest defenders rarely relied on slide tackling. Their superior other attributes helped them avoid being in such situations. I'm not saying Beckenbauer was the best tackling defender, but he was still better than Koeman in this regard. He was a prototype of a defender that players like Scirea, Baresi and Koeman himself followed and tried to emulate.
Please read the posts well. I covered both sliding tackles and 'normal' tackles. But OK, agree to disagree. I will also not look for video material because apparently your reply will be 'Koeman had more'.
I think yonko meant any kind of tackles are not the measure of a great defender. I agree, positioning, aerial prowess, and of course ability with the ball are more important traits.
Yes, but sometimes it is unavoidable. I an attacker recieved the ball directly in his feets then making a tackle is a pre. Heading is indeed interesting: Beckenbauer was not good at it (often beaten in the air), Baresi slightly better and it was also not Koeman's strength. I think Scirea is even the best of those names (ahead of Baresi and then the rest).
Not necessary Puck. I do play and coaching so I kinda know what am talking about! First, great DF (with good skills and experiences) like Beckenbauer, Scirea, DeGuia, N Santos , Passarella, and lately Blanc, Thuram ... ALL SELDOM did direct tackles , since they could "predict" the opponent's movement and they could anticipate his passing, or dribbling "JUST IN TIME" - Tackles often end up with a caution or causing panick to the GK! Secondly, TACKLE is a LAST resource to do (most used by so-so defenders with lesser skills in "anticipating the ball movement or opponent's movement"! There is a case that tackle is NEEDED like an opponent already in further position toward the box and ready to shoot and that DF was the last one (from behind or running in parallel)
Puck, James is giving a very nice response. So instead of repeating I will just quote him below. In general, a great defender rarely uses tackling, instead he makes interceptions more often or man-marks an opponent out of the game. Tackling is for those last-ditch attempts to prevent a goal. Blocking is also used in those moments. It all about anticipation, positioning and decisions. James, on a rare occasion you a make a good post like this one, which I can agree with. There is hope for you after all.
Baresi was simply much more dominant than Scirea in the field and much more quicker and impenetrable. For many years, internationally
Telling that Baresi was always behind Scirea in the National team is absolutely incorrect. There were 7 years of age difference between them. In 1982, Baresi was only 22 years, from 1983 he played several matches together with Scirea, Baresi as midfielder anyway. Then Baresi blatantly quarreled with Bearzot (he didn't want to play as midfielder) and was ousted by the National team for that. That was not a technical choice, it was a disciplinary action! Italy team results since that moment were very disappointing , going on with Scirea and without Baresi. Italy did not qualify for the European Championship (1984) and in the following World Cup was unwatchable, too many goals conceded with Scirea (even 2 with South Korea). Scirea was the worst sweeper of the World Cup in 1986 (many mistakes, against Maradona and Platini, too)! So very wrong choice by Enzo Bearzot to insist with Scirea, this is history! After 1986, with Azeglio Vicini, Baresi came back in the National team, in the role due to him. Baresi was more complete than Scirea, with his club had been at the top for many more years and in the National Team did much better at the World Cup. In fact it was included in the FIFA All Star Team in 1990 (something that never happened to Scirea). Scirea was not good as defender and a too slow player. Baresi, Beckenbauer, Mauro Ramos, Krol, Bobby Moore, Figueroa, Vasovic, Belodedici, Passarella, Morten Olsen ....were better than him, by far
Romario said almost the same after 1994 World Cup Final. He said that he never faced something like Baresi's defence. And this is why: