Saturday 12 Jan 2019

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by Stuart95, Jan 12, 2019.

  1. 007Spartan

    007Spartan Member+

    Mar 1, 2006
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For some the degree is worth playing at a lower level for 4 years than might be available to them in the USL, MLS or overseas. For others it would be an enormous lost opportunity in terms of both development and wages. It is better for the players and the growth of the game in this country that there are more options for them in the early parts of their career.
     
  2. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Sure but I'd say that would be for a select , privileged "some". If less than 1% of college athletes turn pro, I can just imagine what the percentages are for players who skipped school and went directly to the pros at a younger age. I'd say the number is even smaller.
     
  3. scoachd1

    scoachd1 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    Southern California
    Academy is where players start. Some go to college, some sign directly. The question is instead when they choose to sign professionally. Fewer years in College is becoming the better choice for more and more professional level kids.
     
  4. rocketeer22

    rocketeer22 Member+

    Apr 11, 2000
    Oakton,VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, he was featured in one of the commercials.
     
    falvo repped this.
  5. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Exactly and that is the question. I know that is the point and the end goal but I don't and haven't seen much evidence of players who choose to sign professionally are that much better than players who go to and stay in college.
     
  6. superdave

    superdave BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 14, 1999
    Raleigh
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’ll repeat myself...it’s trolling when, in a thread about the draft being irrelevant in 2019, you attempt to refute that point by citing the 2010 draft.

    It’s also possible you are very stupid, and it’s also possible you’re ignorant of how much US development has changed.

    Whatevs.
     
  7. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    #32 falvo, Jan 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
    Just like everywhere else in the world, the game has evolved and changed. I’m sure over time, it has become better in the USA as well. I never once posted US development hasn't changed. I'm merely pointing out college has been part of that development and is a great tool to utilize and have. Going down the list of MLS rosters , I’m sure many teams can attest to that too.
     
  8. 007Spartan

    007Spartan Member+

    Mar 1, 2006
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The US Nat’l team January camp roster is pretty illustrative of the fact that most of the top talent in this country does not complete college. Of the 29 players on the roster, 19 played 2 years of college soccer or less. 10 players skipped college altogether and just 10 entered the league through the draft. Only seven of 29 completed all four years of college. The majority of the players played as youths with academy teams and 11 signed as HGPs.

    So college is great for late bloomers like Aaron Long. It gives them a chance to develop, get drafted and turn themselves into solid pros and even potential Nat’l teamers. That said, more are skipping college altogether than finishing and most elite prospects who go the college route leave early and that trend is increasing as the number of academies and investment in them increases. I mean the No 1 draft pick played one of college this year.

    So while some kids can continue to use college to develop and turn themselves into pros, I expect the number of truly elite US players who actually finish school to continue to decline and the number who skip it altogether to increase. This is already evident in some of the youngest (and most promising) members of the January Camp like Kellyn Acosta, Auston Trusty, Djordje Mihailovic, and Justen Glad who are all academy products who signed as teenagers.
     
  9. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    #34 falvo, Jan 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
    Not a great analogy. This USMNT has not qualified for anything in five years. Since 1990 onward, the team was loaded with college players. The 1990 team that qualified for its first WC in 40 years , had a 1980’s college all star team. Same with 94, 98, 2002, 2006,2010 and 2014. It remains to be seen what they will do in 2022. Let's just hope they qualify.

    Also, looking at the current national team roster and recent call ups of the last few years, many players attended college for a certain period. Almost all the GK’s , Trapp, Lima, Zimmerman, Zardes and Roldan to name a few. Heck even Jurgen Klinsmann‘s kid went to Cal Berkeley.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_men's_national_soccer_team
     
  10. 007Spartan

    007Spartan Member+

    Mar 1, 2006
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #35 007Spartan, Jan 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
    That’s a very different argument than saying MLS teams should abandon academies and players should complete college to get their degree and to best develop their talent. Elite players do that less and less because there are far more options and in many cases those options are better for the best players than staying in school for four years. That said, I’m tired of arguing this with you. Your argument has shifted so much at this point that it’s pointless to continue this discussion as it is impossible to have a rational discussion with you.
     
  11. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    #36 falvo, Jan 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2019
    First of all, why get so defensive and who is starting an argument? Secondly, I never started an argument and I don’t believe I ever posted (at least in this thread) that MLS should abandon academies altogether. I merely discussing , pointing out and questioning the validity, overall purpose and end goal of the academy but I don’t think I ever posted abandon it altogether. Its true I don’t see a huge difference or gap in the academies and college players and I think the leagues should be permitted to have their academies work closer to colleges but that’s not an argument , that’s a belief and I have always believed that.

    If anything I acknowledged that they should go ahead and keep their academies but players ages 18-21, should attend college as I don’t believe it hinders their development. Even a month ago I questioned it but again, I still believe college soccer is a great tool to utilize. MLS teams believe in the system too and that’s why they have a college draft and make a big deal about it. I spoke to Tomas Silvas today and he was on Sigi’s first UCLA championship team and even he said most players should attend school for at least 2-3 years because its a great environment to be in and players get to train and get a chance at a free education. Now if MLS teams paid exuberant salaries to skip college, that's a different story but not at what they offer these kids.
     
  12. Bill Archer

    Bill Archer BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 19, 2002
    Washington, NC
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can't remember who the player was but there was a big time 18 year old prospect several years ago who was debating whether to go to college or take a GA offer and enter MLS.

    He sought out Sigi Schmid for advice. (Clearly a smart kid).

    Sigi advised him to go to college for a year, maybe two before trying his luck at MLS. He said the transition between high school - and even US U17's or whatever - and full time professional was a huge leap and was a jarring shock for most guys.

    He felt that a year or two in college eased the transition between the two worlds.

    (Might have been Chad Marshall.)
     
    JasonMa, Bluecat82 and falvo repped this.
  13. 007Spartan

    007Spartan Member+

    Mar 1, 2006
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think it can be a bridge. As I mentioned, you still have a number of players in the January Camp (which is entirely MLS based) who spent a year or two in college before either signing a HGP contract or entering the draft.

    That said, now that the vast majority of teams have USL setups or affiliates, there is another option to provide players a bridge between youth teams and the MLS. The USL also has the benefit of being able to provide year round training under the overall management of the MLS club and the ability for players to move between the two clubs. The level of play is also higher than that of college. That certainly wasn't the case for Chad Marshall or even a player like Aaron Long who entered college in 2010. Even teams like NYRB and Dallas who have been at the forefront of academies and investment in USL sides didn't begin gearing those sides up until 2015 at the earliest. That's also when the new CBA kicked in and minimum reserve salaries were increased by 37% (and 5% per annum each year after).

    So, we're talking about a pretty new development. Soccer America had an article today on the changing landscape and one of the big drivers is the money MLS teams are plowing into academies, USL sides and training facilities. To quote them;

    "If you combine what MLS clubs are spending each year on academy and USL programs with the cost of the half dozen new training facilities that will be built, you're easily talking about $500 million or more on player development costs over the next three or four years."

    https://www.socceramerica.com/publi...n-table-in-addressing-america.html?verified=1

    I'm personally thrilled by this. The USSF alone can not properly fund youth development in this country and traditional clubs aren't going to move us to a point where we begin to produce world class players more regularly. They simply price too many players out as they move up to more elite competition. That's one major reason this sport has traditionally been a more affluent, suburban game at the highest levels.

    However, as the article notes, MLS clubs are going to want a return on that investment. That's one reason why the more aggressive investors like NYRB, Dallas, Seattle and KC are aggressively signing academy products to both homegrown contracts and USL Pro contracts. In a lot of cases you simply can't wait to sign the truly elite players to pro contracts until they complete even a year or two in college as more are finding lucrative offers waiting at big European clubs when they turn 18.

    Just look at US U20 team that beat Mexico to win CONCACAF championship. 7 of the 20 on the roster have already signed with European clubs, with one strongly rumored to be signing in Germany when he turns 18. Sergino Dest signed with Ajax, Brady Scott signed with FC Koln, Alex Mendez signed with SC Freiburg, Ulysses Llanez is rumored to be signing with Wolfsburg when he turns 18, Chris Gloster and Sebastian Soto signed with Hannover, Juan Pablo Torres is in the Jupiler League with KSC Lokeren, and Manny Perez signed with Celtic. That doesn't even include guys in the same age group like Pulisic, Weston McKennie, Timothy Weah, and Josh Sargent who have already bypassed the MLS. For the top talent teams often can't wait until they turn 18, let alone until they've spent a year or two in college (and certainly not 4).

    Luckily the remaining twelve are already signed with MLS clubs, or soon will be. David Ochoa, Matt Real, Jaylin Lindsey, Brandon Servania, Samuel Rogers, Julian Aranjo, Ayo Akinola, Paxton Pomykal, and Chris Richards all bypassed college and signed HGP contracts. Chris Richards has already been sold to Bayern Munich for $1.25 mln. Frankie Amaya spent a year at UCLA before going #1, Mark McKenzie spent a year at Wake before signing with Philly and is already a regular starter, and Justin Rennicks is hopefully signing a homegrown contract with NE after two years a Indiana. He probably would've left earlier if he hadn't gotten hurt his freshman year.

    All told just 4 members of this team, which is a very talented one, spent time in college and two spent just a year there before leaving. Only one entered the MLS via the draft. In short, MLS teams better sign the top players early because young Americans are receiving contract offers at big clubs in Europe in numbers I haven't seen. That is exciting and could be good for our national team, but MLS clubs who are less invested are simply going to see their best academy products head to Europe. I'm also hoping the MLS gives teams a bit more freedom in the CBA to spend to sign young talent (and pretty much every other front for that matter) because even wealthier teams like LAG are losing academy products to Europe.

    Anyway, to wrap up this novella, I still think college soccer can and will play a part in the development pyramid of soccer in this country. However, it is no longer the best choice for the majority of the truly top talent in this country. That's a good thing, it means there are more options and higher levels for young players to test themselves in than there was even five years ago. Time will tell if that leads to more success internationally, but we're already seeing guys like Pulisic, Weah, Sargent, McKennie, and Acosta breakthrough into the team.
     
    Bluecat82 repped this.
  14. NashSC

    NashSC Member+

    Nashville SC
    United States
    Jan 3, 2018
    I am not picking on you in particular as I see this type of thing said a lot. I just don't understand the idea that an athlete needs to get a college education before they go pro. The pro athlete window for most people is pretty small (I am guessing 10 years is a long pro career for the average pro player). They can literally get a college education whenever they want at any age. If I had been blessed with athletic ability and a drive like these players, I would have for sure not wasted it for 4 years in college. I would have made my money when I could and then gone to school when i was done...if I still felt i needed to.

    Rant over
     
    jaykoz3 repped this.
  15. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think they need to, but I think that the societal pressure (particularly from parents/family) to get a degree shouldn't be overlooked. Its generally (metaphorically) beat into you the while time your in school that the "right" path, especially if you have any talent in academics or athletics, is to go to college and get an education before you start your career.
     
    falvo repped this.
  16. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Actually, they don't have to get an education if they don't want to. I for one though, have never met a top jr or high school and college athlete who wants a crap job when they grow up or if and when their playing days are over. No one wants to be a fry cook or work at a restaurant. North American colleges give their athletes the opportunity to get an education and play ball at the same time. This doesn't happen anywhere else on earth. They would be idiots not to take advantage of it.


    The thing is, not only is the window small, but in this day and age, without an education you are basically nothing and the chances of going pro or making it in the pros, are one in a million. I know first hand how American players are treated in Europe as I lived and worked at Fiorentina. The Americans are laughed at, ridiculed and looked down upon. They will much rather play a European player over an American born one and your chances are few and far between. lower divisions have even worse atmospheres. From the conditions I saw in the lower leagues when Fiorentina was relegated to the C2, I wouldn't wish it upon anyone. Heck my crap school at San Jose State was like a country club by comparison.

    Pulisic is one in a million but if you do have his God given talent and are that good to begin with, I'm sure you will know this at an early age. At that point, why go to college? Not everyone though has his talent though and unless you have a token name like Weah or Klinsmann, you most likely won't get a chance and will probably fall through the cracks. The rest will be lucky to get off the bench or play in a lower tier. That is not because I want that , that is just a historical fact. Since 1990, just look at the number of American players who excelled in Europe. I count very few. Heck even Landon couldn't make it there and others had short lived careers at best. The chances of making it in MLS aren't any better. If you have 26 teams with a roster of 28 players, that is 728 players. Take away the 3 GK's and 8-10 foreigners per side, you are left with maybe 384 field players. If you think you are going to overtake a 10 year veteran in Wondolowski, Bradley , Dempsey (before he retired) or someone else with a big national team name, you are dreaming. Even if a player is better than Wondo is, they will not get rid of a proven veteran for an unknown academy player. This is true everywhere in the world but especially in MLS. For this reason alone, of course I'd encourage anyone to get a free education while they can or have a chance to.

    Again, if you are that good and don't need to go to school, I'm sure your skills will be evident at a younger age. As far as MLS is concerned, I still have yet seen this academy overtake college players across rosters and I don't believe the gap is greater. I'll believe it when I see it.
     
  17. big_pole57

    big_pole57 Member

    Oct 21, 2009
    King George, Virginia
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You realize the MLS has a limit on how much of the transfer fee can be applied to player acquisition. I'm not sure but I think the limit is like 300K (someone will correct me I'm sure) but the bulk of the money must go into a club's infrastructure. At least that's what I am lead to believe.
     
  18. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    #43 falvo, Jan 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
    P
    Does that mean the Whitecaps get to keep the bulk of the $22 million of Davies’ transfer fee? Or is it that money divided up across the league?
     
  19. 007Spartan

    007Spartan Member+

    Mar 1, 2006
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You should really know more about this. The team keeps 100% of the proceeds from the sale of HGPs. They only get to use $750K in the form of GAM. However, they can use the remainder for whatever they want and that includes funding the acquisitions of DPs.

    A club like Bayern Munich smashing the MLS outbound transfer record by buying an MLS academy product before his 18th bday is a huge positive for the league longterm. There’s still work to do and hopefully there are more changes with the next CBA, but that other leagues are attaching more value to our young players is a positive.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ml...w-homegrown-transfer-rule-will-impact-mls?amp
     
  20. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    #45 falvo, Jan 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
    I should know more about how MLS , a single entity outfit, is supposed to distribute their transfer fees? How would I know? If anything, I think you need a CPA to figure out their crazy mixed up rules which are also constantly changing.

    I am not sure about CONMEBOL but from what I recall in UEFA anyway, it used to be that most players and former clubs (depending on contracts) could get 10% of transfer fees. That was a while ago so the rules may have changed.

    Speaking of academies, wouldn't it be nice though if Christian Pulisic's academy, the PA Classics could get even 1% of the $73 million transfer fee that Chelsea paid? I heard they tried to get or recover some of it but it was denied or they won’t pursue and try. Sad as they could have funded their academy for another 10 years, if not more.
     
  21. 007Spartan

    007Spartan Member+

    Mar 1, 2006
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you are going to post constantly about the value, or lack thereof, of the Homegrown player program, then yeah, I think you should have a basic understanding of how it works. The rules are a couple paragraphs long and I found them via google in a matter of minutes.

    As for PA Classics, no I don't think they should get a cut. They got their cut in the form of the thousands of dollars in fees they charge their players every year, not to mention the support they receive from the USSF as a development academy. That said, there is a entire thread discussing this topic if you want to talk about it.

    https://paclassics.demosphere-secure.com/_files/downloads/Cost Structure & Payment Schedule 2018-2019.pdf
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  22. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    #47 falvo, Jan 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
    Thanks for the advice but I'll post whatever I please. As far as caring about what MLS -TAM , GAM , DP and CAP rules are or mean, I don't revolve my life about knowing their definitions. I doubt most fans of the game sit and try to analyze them either.


    Either way, the PA Classics did in fact try to pursue or recover part of that fee.
     
  23. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If only there was a place or a website available that listed all of this.......................oh wait, there is.............

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/league/official-rules/mls-roster-rules-and-regulations

    MLS' website has a search feature............this information is readily available.
     
    GunnerJacket and JasonMa repped this.
  24. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Oh wow, how cool! Thanks for the alphabet soup! I'll be sure and read up on it! :thumbsup:
     
  25. 007Spartan

    007Spartan Member+

    Mar 1, 2006
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #50 007Spartan, Jan 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
    It is absolutely your right to keep talking about things you don't know about. That said, no they didn't.

    "We haven't made a decision yet. I would say 90 percent 'no,' that we don't move forward with anything," said Klein, who in addition to his responsibilities with PA Classics has served as an assistant on various U.S. youth national teams. "I know it goes against some of the conventional wisdom. I know a lot of people would like us to, but there's still a part of me that [feels] Christian made himself. I don't like being on the side that we are due this money because we created Christian Pulisic. That's where my comfort level drops. We were a part of it, but I don't know if I like trying to gain off of his success."

    Klein said his reluctance is also influenced by the fact that PA Classics is a pay-to-play club, and has already been compensated in terms of developing its players.

    "If we were a club that wasn't pay-to-play, it would be a whole different ball game," he said. "Our kids pay to play, so that's how we make our money. Now, we scholarship a lot of kids, but that's where the difference is for me a little bit. If we were one of those European clubs where everyone is free, or an MLS club where everyone is free, and signed him as a pro ... we're not even a pro club."

    http://www.espn.com/soccer/soccer-t...sue-solidarity-payment-after-chelsea-transfer
     
    jaykoz3 repped this.

Share This Page