Salary Cap Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by Eleven Bravo, Dec 19, 2018.

  1. scoachd1

    scoachd1 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    Southern California
    My point has been that you cannot go by salaries alone. South American players typically have lower salaries than Euro's but higher transfer fees. Howard's contract is not comparable to other team's top paid players and is exhibit A as to why looking at salaries doesn't make sense.

    The Rapids have been cheap in every way and Howard's contract is not only an outlier for them, it is an outlier for the league. It is higher than the 5 next highest paid players in his position in the league combined. He wasn't a big upgrade over their incumbent in that position and wasn't ever going to be a game changer like most DPs are intended to be. If the Galaxy or another high spending team overspent on their keeper like that on their 3rd DP it would be one thing. But for a traditionally low spending team like the Rapids to do so is completely different. There is a good reason why Wahl only ranked Kraft and Precourt below Kroenke in his annual ambition rankings.
     
  2. scoachd1

    scoachd1 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    Southern California
    Not a big fan of Olsen as a coach. Then again I'm not a big fan of Petke either but felt he did a good job. But that is just a personal opinion. They spent on a new stadium. They spent on Rooney (which I was also skeptical). DC is apparently spending 50M on a training facility. So while they were in Colorado's league when they were losing money hand over fist at RFK, they aren't acting like it anymore.
     
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  3. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So we're just going to ignore evidence produced in order to hammer the original point, got it.

    I mean, you don't have to agree, but at least address the points (multiple high paid players, arguments that Howard was actually a game changer in 2016, etc.) rather than just repeat your position.

    And again, KSE has at least ponied up for a stadium, which is more than a number of ownerships can say (including Kraft and Precourt). I'm not saying KSE is great or doesn't need to do more, but they're dumped into the Kraft/Precourt category without a lot of analysis here on BigSoccer. They don't deserve it. They're more SJ/Houston/Philly than Columbus and NE.
     
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  4. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    No one deserves to be lumped with Precourt. He was intentionally looking to tank, sink attendance and make his dream of moving the club look necessary. He even failed at failing. Kraft has made a couple moves in the past, and recent past, that show what looks like desire or a plan. He just hasn't hit the right moves, right plan. I give him credit for the Brad move, and it may well turn out to be brilliant.
    There actually is solid reasoning behind Howard, beyond him being the most famous US national a couple years back, and maybe still today. It's the notion of creating separation, or advantages, for your squad within a division. Strikers/Amids are a sexier way to go, but if you can be better at keeper than anyone around, that's an advantage. If you build on that and become better at CB and on the wings defensively etc, you've got yourself a strategy.
    The problem with Howard in 2018 was that he was no longer the best keeper in MLS, and it was tough to call him above average. There were several days on which he was bad. It's easy to see this as a lack of effort by Colorado. After all, it shouldn't be surprising when a player elegible for AARP membership starts to slip. But he was pretty great right after the signing and looked to many as if he might have a couple years left in the tank. I believed he had turned Colorado into a very tough to score against, grab a goal on the counter and win and tie more than their share type of side. I was ready to hate them.
     
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  5. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    We really need to remember this point.
     
  6. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've said for a couple of years that the biggest issue with signing Howard wasn't the signing, it was that they didn't follow-up that move with other moves to build on it. Howard was step 1 in resetting the reputation and perception of the club but Hinchey/Bravo/Pablo treated it like the final step. In the 2016-17 offseason the only notable player move was signing Boateng. In the 2017 summer window they signed Aigner. By the beginning of 2018 everything gained from the Howard signing had been lost.
     
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  7. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not if they are treated as signing bonus (a cost of having a player). if you buy a player that makes 200K per season, but you pay 5 million for him, that player is a DP.

    Now you can recover some of that money if you sell the player, but not if he leaves on a free after the contract ends, we still have not seen that part from the Atlanta investment.


    For now ownership has put up around 20 million (15?) on transfer fee money, that is not covered by the MLS budget, just like the money above the max is not covered (unless you use TAM type money).
     
  8. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A transfer fee is not a signing bonus. Transfer fees go to a player's former club. Signing bonuses are amortized and filed under "total compensation".
     
  9. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, I was talking about the cost of getting the player, it does not matter who the money goes to, it is still cash flow out, be it to acquire (buy) and/or keep the player (salary).

    So while the Chicago Fire salary looks higher than Atlanta, the total cost of the players for Atlanta are higher than Chicago.
     
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  10. scoachd1

    scoachd1 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    Southern California
    1) Let's be clear. Precourt is in a league of its own. I'm just stating those IMO were the two worse than Colorado.
    2) San Jose/Houston/Philly were the 3 ranked just above Colorado Wahl's list so your characterization of being in their class draws no argument from him or for me. However I put him in the Kraft class as he's got the resources to do more, but doesn't.

    I also believe San Jose and Philly are trying. Philly is a lot like Dallas, RSL and Red Bull. They are investing a lot in their academy (started an in school program) and have a reasonably close minor league affiliate of which they are actively working with. San Jose from my perspective is kind of like DC United only with a focus on getting high profile management rather than players. Prior to opening Avaya they skimped. But since then they appear to be starting fix their academy. They hired the sport director from AS Roma to run the soccer side of the organization and Chief executive from Astin Villa to run the business side. Clearly Mikael Stahre didn't work out, but he coached in the top tier of three different countries that are not all that dissimilar in stature than MLS. Furthermore when they felt he wasn't working out, the quickly got rid of him and replaced him with arguably one of the highest profile coaches in the league. This isn't Colorado hiring a player coach with no experience or the head coach whose club coaching career consisted of semi pro teams or have a finance guy serve as their sporting director.

    Now if you want ask "what about Houston" about all I'll say is that they didn't spend a 1/4 of the payroll on a mediocre keeper. Other than that, I'd say you've got Colorado ambition with a GM/Sporting director that at least has clue about the "sporting" side.
     
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  11. scoachd1

    scoachd1 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    Southern California
    Basically your argument comes down to the fact the Colorado brought in Gashi (the club covered DP) and a completely overpaid keeper who I thought was rapidly declining and wasn't much of an upgrade over the incumbent in that position because most of the non-league covered portion of the salary was covered by a sponsor. Everything else was Mickey Mouse and that is being completely disrespectful to Mickey. Coaches with zero professional league coaching experience. Finance guy serving as a sporting director. Terrible academy. Announcer doubling up as an Academy coach. USL club on the other side the country. What am I missing?
     
  12. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    What shocked me about this was that Hudson (right, the NZ guy) was brought in for 2018 with a strategy that kind of relied entirely on being way above average defensively, which they were in 2016 but were not in 2017. I don't see what happened as his fault, he had a plan but didn't know MLS well enough to realize the talent level needed to make it happen. It kind of looked like he'd arrived with the notion that MLS was high league one, low championship level, brought in players with that in mind and that didn't work out.
    For 2019 they brought in Kei, who is still about as good for the defend and counter at speed approach as it gets in MLS. They brought in Rubio who makes no sense at all in that approach, but can score and doesn't really work at the same time as Kei, so maybe he's for plan b? Have they upgraded defensively, at all?
    That said, neither Kei nor Rubio are dirt cheap options. A DP level CB and or something else. box to box? and Ford taking a big step up would seem to be needed. Still, from a great distance and with not that much concern, they don't seem to be not investing. If they are again bad, it would seem to be more of the same, poor choices, poor execution of a plan.
    That said, no stadium in MLS has anything approaching as cool as the national wildlife preserve that's across the street from the dick.
     
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  13. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And yet we've discussed why he was an upgrade, including pointing to stats that show that, and you've dismissed them with a "whatever". And why are we just ignoring the signing of Gashi?

    Pablo, yes, was a mistake but then he isn't the first coach in league history to go from the field to the head coaching job. Wasn't Jason Kreis the next up and coming Nats manager, until he wasn't? Hudson doesn't have a ton of experience but National Team experience is still more than some coaches (Friedel, Olsen, etc.) in this league had before they got their MLS job.

    Because hiring guys like Chris Henderson and Pete Vagenas with their little experience is clearly a better option?

    Do you mean part-time fill-in announcer Brian Crookham? Because that's more like Academy director doubling as an announcer. Hardly an unheard of thing and why does htat even matter if he's filling in on game color?

    Which, again, we discussed and IMO is another example of a failed plan, but something with actual plan, which is the case I've been making.

    Again, this looks like a long-list of pre-conceived notions that you had about the Rapids before even starting this conversation and you've decided to ignore the discussion and stick to your beliefs. You've clearly decided that it doesn't matter what the Rapids have done or attempted to do, they're a cheap worthless organization that needs more money and likely a new owner. That's your right but I don't see much point in continuing anymore.
     
  14. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They've added Kegan Rosenberry. I think they expect Sam Vines, a mid-season HG signing last year, to also feature heavily.
     
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  15. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What seems evident from stepping back and looking at this thread is that the difference of opinion seems to come from the argument of the importance of parity over the importance of allowing clubs to maximize their potential.

    Now, if say, we are fans of one the lesser teams in the league; ie the Colorado Rapids, New England Revolution, Columbus Crew, etc. who are stuck in MLS 1.5 it’s natural to feel defensive if someone proposes what might make those teams even lesser. That point seems obvious as certain posters are arguing from that point of desperation.

    That’s understandable... I would not want my club to be left behind either.

    But who does this benefit?

    It certainly does not benefit the whole league. MLS is at a point where it’s nearing 28 teams. Now, I certainly don’t want to see teams retract. I would like to see every team be as competitive as the elites in the leagues; the Atlanta’s, Red Bull’s, Sounders’, Timbers’, SKC’s, etc. and I would love to see two 20 team conferences in MLS east and MLS west some day. The US has the size and resources to accomplish this task; at least some day. But when do we trim the fat?

    At 28 teams, we could certainly afford, absolute worst case scenario, to lose a couple teams if it made the whole product better. For the record, let me stress, retraction is not something I’m advocating. If MLS continues to allow clubs to barely meet the bar of mediocrity then it devalues the entire product. To this point, the strength of a league is more often measured by its top end talent over its lowest. The only way to gain global recognition is to have some products worth that global recognition. People want to watch the best, not the worst. Otherwise, MLS continues to perpetuate its cycle of mediocrity. Therefore, MLS needs to try to figure out how it can improve its total product. There should always be a hunger to improve what we have, unless we strive for complacency and surrender to the substandard.

    The point here is MLS now has enough teams that want to compete in MLS 3.0. Atlanta, Galaxy, Sporting KC, Red Bull, Toronto, Seattle, Timbers, LAFC, NYCFC (if they get a stadium, now DC. I’d say San Jose, Philly, Houston, Dallas, Vancouver, Montreal, RSL, and Orlando (if they can straighten out their locker room). FC Cincinnati looks like they want to compete. Minnesota seems to be turning a corner. Once Miami finds their stadium, I don’t see them wanting to field a B product either. I’m hoping the Crew will sort out their problems with this new ownership group, and praying that Precourt has more ambition in Austin than in Columbus. Ultimately, I see MLS owners wanting their product to be more on par with the EPL than Liga 1 of Romania. Nobody remembers a forgettable product, and there are some forgettable products in MLS right now.

    The good news... USL is becoming a much more stable and recognizable product. Again, I’m not advocating teams should be relegated to the USL. However, if a team is unwilling or unable to step their game up to be competitive in the new age of MLS then that is an option.

    So, coming back to the question: what benefits the league? The answer to that is to allow the top teams to be more competitive and put more pressure on the weaker teams to step up their game. For the life of me, it makes no sense why Atlanta has to sell Miggy Almiron. Because it would give them to much of unfair advantage? Give me a break. There should be room for Atlanta to stockpile some of these top end players. Likewise, Atlanta should be able to give a pay bump to its performing players instead of having to offload players because they were too good.

    Now, that said, I understand baby steps. It’s probably too much too soon to just wholly do away with salary cap. More so, we still want to protect the US national team. We don’t want a situation where American players can’t even get on the field in their own league. But we do want those Americans players to be playing against better and better competition. That’s how we push the needle. That’s how we make MLS better.

    To conclude, I again understand feeling defensive if your club is not a club that would take advantage of these opportunities. But that is not enough reason to prevent the ambitious teams from doing so; when in fact, it improves the strength of the league by providing a more globally recognizable product.
     
  16. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    The least well known of the monster cereals.
     
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  17. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Now that Precourt is gone, how are the Crew a problem club? Even when he was there, they made the playoffs 4 of last 5 years and were talked about as the it team during parts of the last couple seasons.
    I get that the front office was a mystery, but stuck in 1.5 seems unfair. The on field results were pretty decent. And now the new guys are making plans for a new stadium.
    They've definitely got a plan, and even with a horrible owner, they didn't do a bad job at it. Their manager was stolen by the US nats so they've gone out and hired a very decent replacement.
    If the problem clubs in MLS perform at the level of the Crew, MLS is in fantastic shape. OTOH, if the clubs that get it perform like the recent LAG sides, the league has problems.
     
  18. fairfax4dc

    fairfax4dc Member+

    Dec 5, 2008
    Fairfax, Va
    This is interesting post with many good points. I'll respond with a few thoughts on the cautious side.

    - In expanding the playoffs to 14 clubs and creating a single elimination playoff system, MLS ownership is sending a clear message in favor of parity over supporting the creation of a few elite teams.
    - As others have pointed out, the Atlanta and Seattle owners don't seem to have a problem with the current system limiting their ability to spend on their rosters. Perhaps they wisely realize that absent a salary cap (of sorts) their own fans would eventually turn on them for not spending enough to guarantee championships. Arthur (correct name?) Blank isn't a young man and I have no idea who inherits the club from him. But the chances of their maintaining the commitment would be better if the club and league are based on a sustainable business model than if dear old dad was pouring the family fortune into a quest to become the North American superclub.
    - I'm a little puzzled by the notion that having a handful of under-performing clubs brings the whole league down. The entire European system seems built on leagues in which a handful of elite clubs beat up on a bunch of patsies. Having a few patsies of our own won't hold MLS back.
    -
     
  19. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Fair points... let me clarify to say I’m not necessarily advocating against parity. I am all for the success of the entire league. That said, I’m merely suggesting that I don’t want to see clubs be held back by the underperforming clubs if and when the underperforming clubs advocate against the ambition of the top end clubs.
     
  20. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hopefully you are right. I have no obligation to say the Crew are a bottom end team. But as far as attendance, atmosphere, and front office, they have been very poor despite being fortunate to have been coached by a very good coach who got more out of his talent than most coaches in the league.
     
  21. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I get this notion, but I disagree. I think the Crew attendance issues had deep reasons, and those reasons got out of Dodge. We will see this year if Mapfre rocks again. I believe it will. If it doesn't count me as concerned.
    Berhalter got a lot out of that group, but it wasn't a bad group. Porter will do well, I think. They'd been hovering around 16,000 to 17,000 before this madness began, so their drop to 12000 wasn't a total shock.
    I'd suggest a bigger concern is Dallas. I live overseas so see my matches on Eurosport. About 90 percent of the matches they broadcast are shown without commentary, just stadium sounds. Dallas games are frighteningly quiet. These games are no more quiet or empty than Chicago games this season, or San Jose or Crew or Rapids, but the quiet elsewhere made sense, the teams were sucking when the noise vanished.
    Dallas? What more do people down there want. Looks like a decent stadium, the team is not only successful but it's exciting. The structure is as good as it gets in MLS. The owners clearly have a plan, have put it in motion and it's working. Dallas is always there or thereabout. OTOH the stadium does seem to be, uhm, on the outskirts is a polite way of saying it? 26 miles from downtown Dallas, which compares to 13 miles from CMP to downtown KCMO, which is always packed. FWIW, Colorado's Dick is 7 miles from downtown Denver, which is the exact distance of Olympic Stadium from downtown Berlin and Wembley from Westminster (FWIW, not much).
     
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  22. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don’t disagree with what you’re saying. I don’t believe that there’s just something in the city, metro, state that makes one area better than the other. For instance, is Atlanta a better soccer city than Dallas? Or, is Atlanta United just better ran than FC Dallas? I think the answer is clearly that Atlanta United is just a better ran organization (at least outside youth development where Dallas is excellent). If FC Dallas were to move inside the city, market their product better, I think they too could bring in 50-70k a match; as the same for the rest of the league.

    On the Crew reasons; believe me I get it. I don’t know how motivated I’d be to support the Crew if I had an owner trying to sabotage my club. I’m hoping that what we see in the years coming is a much more eager and ambitious Columbus Crew. And I then think attendance will follow.

    I know it seems like I’m bashing Colorado, Columbus, etc personally but I’m not intending to do so. If anything, I believe they are simply not living up to their potential.
     
  23. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Figures. The guy from Atlanta wants to spend more money.

    Let me flip this on it's head: What's the benefit to MLS to allow big teams to "reach their potential?" What a lawyered phrase. It's code for "spend a ton of money, buy the best talent, and monopolize the league for decades to come."

    First, it wouldn't help the national team. Because a team that's allowed to spend that much money would buy the best Italian defender, the best Brazilian midfielder, and the best German striker. That does nothing for me. We'd just wind up swapping out moderately-paid Americans for highly-paid foreigners.

    Second, it doesn't help the league. Having three or four clubs that everyone in the world pays attention to helps... how, exactly? You think fans of Manchester United, Real Madrid and Bayern Munich would suddenly stop looking down their noses at MLS all of a sudden?

    Third, I love it when anyone who wants to lift/eliminate/raise the salary cap mentions "mediocrity" like it's a trump card. You know what mediocrity is? Barcelona vs Huesca. Liverpool vs Cardiff City. Borussia Dortmund vs Nurnberg. You couldn't get me to watch those matches if you paid me. I'm sure 70% or more of the players on the pitch in those games would be as good or better than the typical MLS player, but so what? There's more to "quality" than who's kicking the ball.
     
  24. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  25. scoachd1

    scoachd1 Member+

    Jun 2, 2004
    Southern California
    I think you have it backwards. You've largely provided simplistic arguments to staunchly defend an ownership group using a business strategy under serves most stakeholders of the league and and should be increasingly questioned as the best way to increase Kroenke's and Kraft's wealth from a personal level. Your entire point of view is from a hardcore fan from Colorado with relatively little personal knowledge of the game or running a business. Nothing wrong with that on a discussion board, but you should have the self awareness to understand your strong biases. BTW I've been to Rapids stadium and have first hand knowledge of facility and how it relates to the metro area.

    Now to your points:

    Because in a world where teams can sign 3 DP's, signing DP that has completely under performed but not getting rid of him because he's under contract and your organization built to run as cheaply as possible puts you near the bottom of the league. Now can you invest in a player development to mitigate the fact that a team may have a competitive disadvantage to pursue high priced players, yes. But once again, Colorado is near the bottom, because doing so requires an investment they are unwilling to make.

    Your examples tend to be outliers and tend to come from teams with relatively low ambition at the time. What you fail to differentiate between are single points of data and large patterns of data. Its not the Colorado hired Pablo and Hudson but instead that inexperience, low cost, lightly regarded options have been coaching Colorado for so long.

    Not sure what point you are trying to make. Henderson and Vagenas had specific roles suited to their backgrounds. Vagenas was a mistake and the Galaxy quickly replaced him with a proven commodity when the realized it. They were both heavily involved in soccer at the youth, college, professional and national team level. In complete contrast Padraig Smith who heads the technical side organization graduated from college and spent 5 years working as an auditor and his claim to fame was putting in a salary cap in Ireland. Presumably he also played some soccer somewhere along the line but it should be pretty obvious that he has no business being a sporting director and as a result the poor decisions on coaching and player personnel should not be a surprise.

    I was actually referring to Balboa. But once again, it is not like a well run organization like the Galaxy haven't occasionally had announcers fill in as academy coaches from time to time, but instead the pattern of the way the Rapids are run like a low cost mom and pop shop.

    I don't think very many people have questioned whether there is a plan. The question is whether spending the plan of spending the bare minimum is good for the league or even good for Kroenke's pockets. The overwhelming vast majority of people believe its not. Your convinced otherwise, but yours is a very isolated group.
     

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