I'd say about 99.9% of the time it is not the passers fault. The passer shouldn't have to be concerned when making the pass about whether the forward is onside or not. Staying onside is 100% the responsibility of the forward. I would agree with the points you are making if he was flagged off one or two times more than the average player. It was 6 times. That is 4 times more than the next highest player. But sure, I guess you're right. Javi should be sprinting over to the sideline to check if Sabo is in an onside position before making his pass.
my wrath (which in hindsight it came off as such very much) wasn't so much directed at you but more the negativity spread the guys way. Hell, we had the trade sabo asshat not too long ago. And a guy on here has gone to calling him a donkey. If our leading goal scorer is a donkey then lets hire a team of asses!
It couldn't be because he's the focal point of the attack so more passes go through him. And it's absolutely on the passer to know if they're onside or not. Are you actually saying that the player is supposed to just hit it forward without having a clue whether they're on or not? I've seen NUMEROUS times that the ball would just get punted forward while Sabo or another player was still running back from the last play, and it was clear that the player didn't even check to see if they were onside or not.
there are tactical reasons to be offsides as has been said here before. When I've played forward (man that was bad) I would purposefully go offside to distract a center back. They'll typically take a half step or so towards you. That opens space for the other forward to find in front of them. That guy makes a slicing run, I'm unmarked on the back post and (now) onsides. Goal Watch Sabo on crosses. He does this constantly. He's off the back shoulder of a defender to open space for little Plata or Javi to run into. It's tactical. it's on purpose. And if a middy is stupid enough to try to feed the ball into him instead of the middy/forward making the run into the newly created space, then yes, it is their fault.
It is absolutely the passer's job to see when a forward is onside or not. The forward can't wait for the ball to be played before making his run. It's the passer's job to know when to pass and when not to pass.
It's hard enough to get the off-side rule correct from the position the linesman is in, hard to argue the passer should be the one to get it right. Bottom line is Sabo is caught off-side far to often, it's a negative aspect of his game. Not getting back on side time after time can be contributed to laziness.
Or as it's been pointed out, it's a valid tactic that forwards that play in a similar style do. Being off isn't always a bad thing! But let's ignore the strategy involved in it and just call it lazy. It's also apparently the forwards fault when they're off and the ball is played to them anyway. There's been plenty of times Sabo/Plata/whoever makes a run, doesn't get the pass because the passer was held up, yet they wind up passing it anyway. You can't always fault a forward if they make a run and someone decides to pass it late. So basically what you're saying is that Sabo needs to always just stand in front of the defender at all times? Screw making a run, because if someone passes it and he's offsides, it can only ever be his fault. It's never due to the wall moving forward at the right time, it's never because the passer either got held up, or passed it late. It's only every Sabo's fault. Go watch ANY target forward who sits on the line most games. They'll get called off quite often. And please don't come back with examples of fast forwards that don't sit on the like (like Plata).
I took the liberty to looking up the Opta stats for Lazio's last game, since you have an absolute love of Klose. Oh look they had 7 offside passes. While I couldn't see who was offsides, 5 of them were in the area of the pitch that Klose plays at. So by your metric, Klose is terrible, because *gasp* a target forward that plays on the line is offsides more than other teammates. I'm glad we cleared the air that we shouldn't go and sign Klose as a DP! He's just as lazy and bad at offsides as Sabo!
Look don't get so bent out of shape on this, we know target forwards are going to get caught off-side more often than pretty much any other player. What some of us are saying is that Sabo gets caught off to often. It's a negative aspect of his game that we have to deal with. But by all means keep defending him like Phill's always did when someone had the nerve to question anything with Beckerman.
So Sabo was offsides 6 times, Klose 5. So the difference between 'too often' is one? I'm not bent out of shape about any of it. You guys have your narrative that Sabo is bad/lazy/whatever at the moment, and even with facts thrown out, it's easy to just dismiss them and carry on saying he's bad. Just admit you don't like him and be done with it. You must not like Klose then either, because he's off just as often. Oh wait, you do. When you watch Klose play do you sit and complain about how often he's offsides?
You win Phill's. Let it be known through out the RSL world that any criticism of the GREAT Alvaro Saborio shall no longer be tolerated. Amen
So you're just going to ignore that Klose is offsides just as often, because you might have to admit you're wrong on this? Seriously just say you don't like Sabo, or try and refute the facts. Target forwards (even your precious Klose) are offsides more often in games, because they play on the line more than other forwards do. I'm laughing that you're calling me phills, because I'm actually throwing out things to back up my statements, while you're blindly ignoring all of it. You know who else is great at ignoring things? phills.
God Phill's I said you won! Your facts from one match are clearly beyond refute. Sabo is a god and we all need to admit it. Hail Sabo, Hail Sabo! Hail Sabo.
Sweet deflection. At least I know to take your Sabo comments with a grain of salt. I'm sorry I had to burst your bubble about your precious Klose, and how target forwards play. If anyone is acting like phills, it's you. He's the one that comes out with comments that goes against what's happening, with no facts to back it up. You're coming out with nothing to back it up, and won't even attempt to have a conversation about it (with facts). That's exactly what phills does. It's even better that this of all seasons you want to call him lazy, when he's come back to help on defense far more than past seasons. Either way, I'm done with all of this for now. It's clear you don't want to have a conversation about it, and you can't just admit you don't like the player, which I'd be absolutely fine hearing. I'll just leave a few more facts you can ignore: 10/22 Sabo offsides 2, Plata 2. 10/17 - Sabo/Plata 0 (both entered same time) 10/5 - Sabo 3/Plata 0 So he averages ~2.5? Per game. Clearly he's horrible, lazy, bad, etc. And go look up target forwards, and you'll see similar numbers. So yes, last game was above the norm, and iirc there was one or 2 that could've been counted as onside. If I'm wrong I'll accept that. We'll also ignore LA's defense, who allowed the fewest goals in the league, so I'd guess they're pretty good at pulling an offsides trap. Let's also ignore that sometimes the pass is late. It's clearly 100% on the player, all of the time.
Um... anyone here remember Cunningham? That guy was offside just for tying his shoes more times per game than Sabo is considering all ways it happens to him. Forwards get offside and we remember it because it is bad. Sometimes it is awful because they score a goal and it is taken away. Negative information leaves a stronger memory than positive information. Therefore, we Embratsu!
There's a difference between saying a player is an overall lazy player, and saying a player is lazy getting back onside. I realize that this wasn't targeted at me. Just to point out a few things though. You're really basing your argument on the fact that Klose may or may not have been offside 5 times in his game with Lazio? Beside the fact that you don't know for sure, the whole premise is based on a borderline logical fallacy. I'm not refuting any facts. It is an opinion of mine (you may choose to agree or disagree) that Sabo does not play the line well. I watch more soccer games a week than I can count. Generally, when Sabo is offside, I have noticed that it is because he is not watching the line or he is walking back onside from an attack. Some people don't have a problem with that (as someone mentioned earlier that they think he shouldn't have to be in a hurry to get back onside). I think that every player should make a good effort to get back though. In the end though, sometimes Sabo is lazy about the offside rule. That is my opinion. Take it or leave it. There are posters on this forum who agree with me, and there are many other fans across the fan base who agree with me. His pros outweigh his cons by a long shot, and there are only a couple forwards in the league I would take over him, but that doesn't mean his game isn't without flaw, and to me this is a flaw. If you wish, you may continue to explain to me a forwards tactic. I understand the tactic (I played soccer when I was 12). The fact that the tactic exists is actually not a fact that proves that Sabo doesn't have a problem though. So accept that it is my opinion (an opinion shared by many others) or...I guess you can keep trying to explain the tactics of a forward.
Those complaining about Sabo's "inability" to remain onside obviously have forgotten the Jeff Cunningham (and his seemingly 'untiable' shoelaces) days, hell even Yura and Espy got called offside ALL THE TIME. It's part of being an opportunistic striker, which Sabo, Cunningham, Yura, and Espy all are/were. Like 15 said, who cares if the guy is called offside 25 times a game, he only needs that one time where he isn't to pounce on a ball and put it away. And quite frankly there is nobody else in RSL history who has been as good as Sabo at finishing opportunistic situations.
Wait, wait, wait, Sabo has supplanted Beckerman for the throne? Does this mean Beckerman criticism is fair game? Well, I'd like to get the ball rolling with...
http://mynorthwest.com/category/sports/ A good site to look at the leagues leader's in numerous statistical catagories including who has been caught off-side the most. Drowned elf don't look.
Here's the more specific page for you... http://mynorthwest.stats.com/mls/player_leaders.asp?category=214
Hmmm... he's 3rd amongst this group of league leaders in his rate of offside at 57 minutes per offside. He's behind DiVaio (53 min/off) and Urruti 54 min/off), just leading Eddie Johnson and Defoe at 61 min/off. It has to be said, teams play to put players like these in offside positions by defensive tactics. Some teams play differently and you'll not see any offsides called in the game, not much trapping going on. Other teams play to create the trap constantly and it works. It is a solid defensive tactic against these players, so I'm not sure it is as meaningful as people here are trying to argue. As I and @UPinSLC pointed out, it's not like he's hanging around tying his shoes for the 10th time in the match (did anyone ever send Cunningham some velcro...).
That Bradley Wright-Phillips is a horrible player! Second most in offsides all season! Someone needs to tell him to stop being offsides so that he might score more. Oh hey there's Espindola in the top 10, one of the guys you love. There's also Keane, a type of player you said we should look for in a DP. I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this, unless you're showing that top players in the league tend to be offsides more, which probably means they're trying to play through that player more.
I guess I should have read the whole thread before making my post, we both had the same thought though with Cunningham. Sabo is a saint in comparison to some of RSL's historical players in this regard, I don't even know why we are having this offside conversation to be honest, it's a waste of time and completely pointless.