Rob Stone: US Manager shortlist is Ramos, Tata Martino, Marsch, Berhalter, Friedel, Osorio & Vermes.

Right, and this is exactly the misguided attitude that wants to play prettier soccer at the risk of being a qualifying regular. You either want these unprovable subjective intangibles -- I mean at what point is it sufficiently "young" or "pretty" or "worthwhile" -- or you want tangible winning.

I think it's all fake news false oppositions. The 2002 and 2010 teams countered with speed and technique. You do not have to turn it into a 2014 3 defensive mid negative soccer fest to achieve both defensive airtightness AND inspired attack.

JK actually proposed with hot air a lot of what you're talking, save the notion that he'd be happy to miss a world cup if his missionary project wasn't good enough.

Save the church mission for the youth teams. If you want slicker soccer that's where that needs to happen.

 

What concerned me most, as I said elsewhere on here, was that CR game where it literally looked like we broke and quit. Even the TnT game, I think they were tired, but I question based on the second half change of momentum whether that was a full hearted first half. They've gotten soft and the 90 minute, never say die, fight isn't the same. The irony is the traditional USA critique has been that heart plus organization plus athleticism was all we had.

Anyhow, yeah, they need to get back the espirit de corps. I thought I saw some of it in the dogged effort against France.

 

Gonzalez is not a holding mid although he did play that role in his breakout season in Monterrey but that team was set up in a particular way where his inexperience was shielded by other players. He would never play that role for the senior Mexican NT despite what many people thought. I'm not sure how he stacks up vs some of the up and coming prospects in the US pipeline in that position so I won't comment on how big or small a loss this is for the US program.

Just as a general point though, the over reliance on foreign born/raised dual nationals has been a detriment for the US, IMO. I think there is a sweet middle spot the US should strive for in this regard and I think they seemed to have achieved that in other cycles like 98 or 2002. They should look to get back to that while prioritizing the development of their home based players since that will always be a reflection of any progress that is being made in US Soccer. The dual nationals should be an addition to that, not the sole metric for success.

 

You're 100 percent correct.

You should also take into account the freedom that playing 90-ish minutes (includes stoppage time) up a man gives you. You have a much easier time defending and attacking. Not to mention, you'll be able to expend less energy, while the team coming from behind expends more...

 

Meh. I don't think anyone "sets out to rely" on dual nationals. Most teams are into recruiting many more players than they need, as their pool. Duals are just one source. Bluntly I am fine with us accumulating as many good players as we can, from whatever source. I just want them to play like they care. If you don't care at the same level that our team expects to -- Chandler comes to mind -- we don't need you, though.

That being said, if you want stark reality, get a roster list from the last several years' worth of teams. Then start scratching off the Germans and other dual nationals. Not much of a team left.

More pointedly, I think if Klinsmann doesn't bring in all those players, the team would have hollowed out. As it is the TnT game arguably points to what we look like without them. Not very good.

I don't think humans psychologically work in a way where it makes any difference whether we roster dual nationals. The developmental system is not going to magically improve. The players are not going to train or play harder. Now, I would grant that MLS would be weaker without its internationals, and forced to start domestic players. There might be benefits in terms of playing time. But the product itself would be less quality. Clearing room for natural born Americans -- and the irony is some of the duals were in fact born here, including AJ -- would create room for Americans to play, but that does not equate to, a better team.

FWIW many many players wearing our colors could probably play for two or more teams. That often correlates with the sort of interest in soccer that gets you going and that provides a legal basis for European work rights. Yedlin is at least dual. Gonzo is dual. AJ is dual. Jozy is dual. Pulisic has a Croatian grandparent. On and on.

The difference, to me, is the ones who turn it into an auction opportunity and the like. No one thinks like hmmmm is Mastroeni loyal. It gets into, do you dress for a particular youth NT, are you decisive in your choice, etc. We are an immigrant country and decades of players have been either immigrants or immigrants' kids. I have no problem with dual nationals and think they helped pad what has been a lousy roster for a few years now. What I have a problem with is people who want the benefits but not to buy in to our attitude and work rate. And that's more an individual character thing case by case as opposed to domestic versus foreign.

 

FWIW re domestic vs foreign, in the recent articles one of the player critiques on Klinsmann was perceived favoritism towards Germans and players playing abroad. I think dual nationals became a more general political hot potato among the fans, egged on by broad statements by Arena (as well as perhaps his actions of weeding them off the roster......look at the last two games), but for the players, their concern was favoritism and commitment. They want players judged by how they play and their commitment, not whether they are or are not duals or playing abroad. I for one agree.

One hope I have is that this failed cycle runs off the sort of player whose eagerness to be on our team related to rote qualification, and not commitment to the overall enterprise. Far as I am concerned I'd rather have this Gonzo kid wrong side of the fence now than have to talk Chandler into signing up and then he plays like he's not quite committed too. If we have to beg and coddle maybe we don't need him.

 

If you being in dual nationals who have never even visited the country for which they play, and tell the players who grew up in that country and fought to make soccer respectable there, "you haven't done sh-t, look at these guys, these are real professionals!"... what do you think is going to happen?

 

If we don't play them we can't even beat TnT, how about that? The rest is about identifying who can actually play, fairness, etc. I don't think someone beefs for backing up Jermaine Jones. I think they beef for backing up Brooks no matter how he plays.

I think we're also ignoring the other half of the equation was giving players like Dempsey and Bradley grief over their choice of destination. It's a general perception of American leagues and players being treated as inferior. It's being cast as straight xenophobia -- and for some fans and Arena maybe it is -- but for the old guard I think the complaint was an overall way of doing things that was only part about nationality. I mean, there are people born here who constantly shill for EPL or the like. It's kind of a snobbery response.

 

And if we play them we get humiliated at home by Costa Rica, how about that?

 

It's kind of a goofy fake discussion, people like the new crop, well, Hamid's parents are Sierra Leonean, Yedlin has Latvian roots, Lichaj has Polish parents, Miazga has Polish roots, CCV was born in England, Robinson was born in England, Moore's dad played for TnT, Villafana lived for years in Mexico, McKennie spent years in Germany, Corona is Mexican-Salvadoran, Rubin is Mexican-Guatemalan, Weah is the son of the president of Liberia, Trapp has a Greek passport, Wood is part Japanese.

Green moved back to Germany at age 2, hand back that goal, we can just lose to France 1-0 instead.

We can start the two red heads and the best MLS can supply.

I swear, such self defeating BS. We should play pretty soccer with American loyal players who lose 3-1. Get eliminated in the early rounds of qualifying. Canada can show us how to do it right.

 

That doesn't work in reverse, because you pull the Germans off that field and it only gets worse. Nice try though.

Worse, I think Fabian was the only German rostered and who played CR. That one probably supports me also in the sense that we shed the Germans and weren't very good for it.

A fair analyst looks at the lineup and says WTF was that backline, instead. Zusi Ream Villafana Cameron. What people continue to miss is how bad the backs got. There was literally not one player who could be put out there and relied on to stop someone and do their job each week. The midfield got old and mediocre but THAT is the real reason we're home, because we still scored a bushel of goals.

 

The point is not that I don't want duals, the point is that Klinsmann brought them in the worst possible way, demeaning the locals and praising the duals as role models.

In other words, had you paid the guy for it, he couldn't have done a better job of fracturing the locker room.

We looked poor because we lost the one thing that elevated our mediocre players when playing as a team: their mentality, playing for the team, doing their best always, going for it like a single man.

 

It's grim, negative soccer, but damn, Carlos Queiroz has a really disciplined, well-marshalled Iran team. And he's a guy who knows a lot about the US game, admittedly many years ago.

We could do worse.

 

But not much worse imo.

 

Lol, I jinxed them, this will end up 4-0 Spain

 

I have brought this up already, look at how teams like Iceland are playing for each other and the shirt. The trust, the I won't let you down, I got your back, All that stuff. That is priceless. That kind of team chemistry and good tactics and coaching got Greece a Euro.

 

4 WCs 3 teams? knows how to get to the big show. I person who knows how take weak talent and get to the show. I also like Van Marwijnk

 

Changed my mind on this in the 2nd half. What a gutsy performance.

 

Playing Jones in every worthwhile opportunity when he (Klinsmann)knew we needed to replace him before Russia is not fielding a team that will culminate in Russia. It's fielding a team that has a hard time getting organized for the Hex. But Klinsmann wouldn't go against the order. Jones was looking for his last contract and had a big family. I could talk about Lee Nguyen pre Rio as well but let's drop it.

You have to be ruthless to do the right thing for everybody. You have to ruffle feathers if you want to be a leader who gets paid big bucks.

 

It was a little inside joke about quantifying....not that anybody was supposed to get it. I just threw it in there.
https://www.si.com/soccer/2018/05/24/tom-byer-us-soccer-pilot-program-canceled

But yeah, I did some biz over in Japan a while ago.

 

A lot of the same in here... JK sucks, xenophobia, we used to be great as a team/mentally/fitness wise/etc., we can only defend and counter, etc.

Our focus should be on the 2026 WC. That means building a team on young players and a style that will be able to make a run in the cup in the US and appeal to the general sports fan. Interim goals should be getting to the Olympics and 2022 WC. Our next coach should understand that is the plan, focus the next two years, including the the 2019 GC on mostly u23s, and then get that group WC experience.

 

...And then Arena dumped all of the Euro players while praising the locals as amazing.

We got both sides of a stupid and divisive coin.

The next manager's job is going to be largely determined by how he navigates the differences among players in the team. Some will be dual-national, some will not be. Some will have played their entire lives overseas, and some will be entirely domestic. Some will speak English, some will speak very little/very poor English. They're all going to have to gel.

 

I think we should be paying attention to who is commentating on the WC broadcasts.

We got Klinsi that way. Martinez (the Belgian coach) was openl=y lobbying for the job in Basil and if JK had bombed out I wouldn't have been surprised one bit if he had been hired.

Right now we have a Dutchman, Guus Hiddink and MON doing commentating. Hmmmm........one is very familiar to Earnie S, has taken multiple teams to the WC and is a man with an eye for talent, how to organize it, and how to develop it too.

If we are really waiting for a WC manager, he could well fit the bill. But...he is available now so why are we waiting?

MON has done wonders with little talent at most of his club stops. He hired Keller and took him with him on his managerial odyssey. he has down well as a nat team coach for a country with a dearth of talent. Seeing him pop up on the tv made me wonder again.

But....he is also available now and doesn't have the Dutch connection that Hiddink has.

Finally their is the man that most likely would have been hired if JK had bombed out in Brasil. he has done well with Belgium and we DO have to wait for him since he is currently leading one of the better teams in the tourney. He would bring a more latin flair to the group, which I personally think would be a good thing, and he has good relationship with USS. He most likely will want to move on after the Cup, even f Belgium wins the thing.

If Sunil were still running things, my money would be on Martinez or Hiddink, who I do think we have at least talked to in the past. If ES is making the call, then it will prolly be Guus, unless Martinez wins or comes close to winning the Cup.

Any of the 3 would be better choices than the names on the list that Rob Stone threw out there.

Oh. And then there is Clarence Seedorf. He is a bit too inexperienced to take the job now, but a Guus/Clarence combo could well be just what the Dr. ordered for Mr. Stewart.

 

Soooooo.....you want the Tinkerman then? He did coach both of yer teams!.