Rob Stone: US Manager shortlist is Ramos, Tata Martino, Marsch, Berhalter, Friedel, Osorio & Vermes.

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by soonertony, May 5, 2018.

  1. skim172

    skim172 Member+

    Feb 20, 2013
    I was so disappointed when I found out he doesn't pronounce like the sauce. :(
     
  2. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    So if prospects don't become CP, WM, Sargent, etc., "they'll never amount to anything"?

    Your previously provided list of players who didn't make the cut is a long ways from "never amounting to anything." The presumption that Sebastian Lletget, for example, would have had a better career for both club and more importantly for this forum's purposes the USMNT, had he stayed domestically in college or MLS is dubious at best. As Statman noted, he'd likely be a lot poorer.

    More importantly, moving to an elite development program is very high risk/reward for any young prospect. For example, the success rate of top youth at the best programs in the world (those who play for Barca's "A" development team) looks to be about 10% who make it the major leagues and I believe that Barca has had the most success at developing Big 4 players.

    Right now, the most important thing for the USMNT is getting more (any?) players who are truly world-class. It's not as important for the team's pool to continue building out its depth (which MLS has been very helpful in developing IMO). We need elite difference makers and therefore we should actively encourage as many elite prospects (which we seem to have in abundance!) to attempt to be as great as possible as fast as possible and for now, that means heading to proven training programs overseas.
     
  3. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Tyler Adams was the NT's best player this year, imo. Elite players are elite players.
     
    ifsteve repped this.
  4. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why should it be said privately? Is it some kind of secret? Don't we want our young players to aspire to play at the highest level that they can?
     
    bsky22 repped this.
  5. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    #6180 IndividualEleven, Dec 7, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
    Players, like people, aspire to make money. Christian Dean(UC Berkeley), Andrew Wenger(Duke), and Brandon Vincent(Stanford) all quit the game this year. Why? I'm guessing, having a nice education gives one options when one understands he isn't going to be a star.

    Players who have the option to make much more money by playing in Europe generally take that opportunity. I don't understand this 'encouragement' conceit.
     
  6. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    IMO, it's the exact opposite of a secret - it's so obvious it doesn't need to be said and there's little reason to poke a valuable partner in public.

    Mrs. O: What's the trouble? Are you alright?
    Elaine: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.
    Mrs. O: It's my goiter, isn't it?
    Elaine: Did you say goiter? What goiter?
    Mrs. O: This football-shaped lump jutting out the side of my neck.
    Elaine: Oh, *that* goiter. Hey... Heh heh heh... Whaddya know...
    Mrs. O: Does it bother you?
    Elaine: Bother me? Oh, phhbt... Why would a little goiter like that bother me? No, not a bit. It's nothing. It's nothin', it's um, in fact, it's um, it's very distinctive, y'know? Um, I mean you want to know something? I, I wish I had one. [pause] Really.

    I can't see why effective private communication that is both direct and consistent would be less effective than a public discussion so it has absolutely no bearing on whether our younger players aspire to play at the highest level.
     
  7. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    I think the whole thing is overrated as far as being some big issue. We'll always have young players striving for the top. And the priorities of some guys might change as they get a bit older or taste what life is like at the highest levels. Not much a NT coach can do to dictate players' full time careers.
     
  8. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    The challenge becomes if MLS decides to over-pay for our talented players in the developmental/peak stage of their careers and they end up playing long-term at a level meaningfully below their ceiling. That would be unambiguously bad for the USMNT although I can see why MLS would want to repeat the MB policy.

    An NT coach can certainly help a rising player get overseas by giving national team minutes and networking on their behalf.
     
    TCS35 and Patrick167 repped this.
  9. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So in 2006 Arena should not have given that NYT interview instead he should have gone around individually to every parent and eligible young player and tell them privately?

    Poke a valuable partner in public? is that what Bruce was doing in 2006? Is that what Bradley was doing from 2006 to 2010 when the word was put out that if you played in Europe you would get a call up?
     
    juveeer, bsky22 and Namdynamo repped this.
  10. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    Well MLS could decide as much but you need the players to go along with it as well. I don't think Bradley's situation is comparable to the young stars and hopeful stars we have now. And I don't see MLS throwing around Oscar-to-China money anytime soon. For the moment I'm more concerned about simply having enough players at a high level than a high number of quality players being "poached" by MLS.
     
    DHC1 repped this.
  11. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Many of the players that featured prominently in the last failure were players that were targeted to be kept in MLS. Zusi, Besler, McCarty, Wondolowski, Altidore, Nagbe were all in their prime and paid to be in MLS. Zusi and Besler could have moved following the 2014 WC, but were overpaid to stay. Nagbe also could have moved but MLS/Portland set the price too high.
     
  12. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    So the guy with arguably the best 2 Year record as coach. Had the greatest 2nd place season ever, should have been Supporters shield Champs and won the MLS Cup is gonna coach Mexico. Meanwhile the USA chose the guy the was 11th and needed PKs to advance to the quarters before getting beat 3-1 on aggregate. Never change USSF, Never change!!
     
  13. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Not true. Nagbe did not accept the salary Celtic offered him. Celtic were agreeble to the price MLS wanted. Nagbe did what was good for Nagbe. Nothing wrong with that.
     
  14. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    So is everyone ready for the Columbus MNT! Puli will be used like Higuian, Weah will be Merian, and Zardes/Kamara will be Sargent. The latter two are upgrades, the former is yet to be determined. Problem is do we have a CB as good as Jonathan Mensah or a FB as good as Harrison Afful? Plus who will be the MNT version of Will Trapp? And even more important, Tchana?
     
  15. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Jose Pekerman rejects Colo Colo offer, prefers to coach national teams and is between China and Honduras, according to En Cancha (Chile):

    https://www.encancha.cl/definitivo-jose-pekerman-no-llegara-a-colo-colo/

    How foolish are those Hondurans? They're going to spend $10m to go to Qatar and be three-and-out, receiving only $8m in prize. That's a net loss of $2m.

    Instead they could arrange a couple of moleros in the USA and make $2m in each, earning $4m instead of losing money!
     
    Burr repped this.
  16. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    Most of those guys were making under a million a year. Hard for me to think of that as being overpaid. Sure, you could say Altidore was overpaid, but he had every chance to succeed in Europe and mostly sucked. Also, I don't recall McCarty and Wondo featuring heavily during the notable failures from the last cycle.
     
  17. TOAzer

    TOAzer Member+

    None
    United States
    May 29, 2016
    Greater Boston
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Worcester...shire ? Or a nice Shiraz deglazed pan sauce? Or more like that saucy cat, Sher Kahn? ......:cautious:.......................:whistling:
     
  18. #8or#6

    #8or#6 Member

    Arsenal
    United States
    Aug 15, 2017
    Even if this is snark, I don't understand any fan's interest in a manager's salary. If I were a Honduran, I might be curious as to why the money is going to the national team rather than fighting gangs or poverty. But the risk reward of the salary of a national team manager seems curious to calculate. Money for national pride? A salve for the ordinary citizen? Federation corruption? I prefer to believe it's just money for market value, ie, willingness to pay whatever it takes to improve the squad rather than a strict profit and loss accounting.

    In any event, those moleros don't yield as much to the average fan as an international spotlight.
     
  19. Mantis Toboggan M.D.

    Philadelphia Union
    United States
    Jul 8, 2017
    How much of the salary for the national team coach in a place like Honduras is funded by taxpayer money? Unique case but doesn't Guatemala have a billionaire who basically bankrolls the national team?

    Interesting thing re your point about fighting gangs or poverty, they've done studies in the US showing crime tends to drop in cities when they have a pro team on a deep playoff run. It would only be a few weeks every 4 years at best so really only a blip in the big picture, but I wonder if the same isn't true in countries like Honduras when they qualify for the WC.
     
    #8or#6 repped this.
  20. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    We don't have all the details. But if the transfer fee was lower, I'm sure Celtic would have upped the salary. Either way, the transfer fee was too low and it never got to the stage to negotiate salary.

    But I doubt Nagbe really cared as long as he got paid either place.
     
  21. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    McCarty was on many rosters as was Wondo. Maybe if they had challenged themselves, they could have been starters on the team. They were content, like many in their generation, to be full time MLS players with no competition and bench NT players.

    Just because a player isn't paid millions doesn't mean they weren't overpaid. Who is the American going to Europe in 2015 from MLS and making millions. You have to go and prove yourself. Then you can make the money. Or you can just stay in SKC, know you have a job, and make more money than any previous American soccer player had ever made in the USA.
     
  22. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    You're right, we would've qualified had Wondo gone to Europe. I bet all the top teams were fighting for his signature after his stunning World Cup performance in 2014.
     
    DHC1 repped this.
  23. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Whatever, if you don't want to participate in a discussion than just don't.

    There is a lack of NT caliber players born between '90-'95. The team under Arena was incredibly old and it had to be. Maybe it simply was a terrible time to give birth to soccer players. But maybe some of the problem is these players became pro at a time when you could stay in MLS and make a very good living. Unlike every American soccer player before them who had to go to Europe just to earn a decent living.

    This is what Lalas was referencing in his "tattooed millionaires" rant. That his generation came back to MLS and helped it grow and get to the point you could be given a very nice wage to play soccer in the USA.

    But Wondo had serious interest from Feyenoord in 2011 and several Danish Superliga teams in 2012. In 2014, Fulham tried to loan him. In 2010, Wondo told a Polish newspaper he would play for Poland. So, moving to Europe or getting interest was not a problem. He just never left.
     
    juveeer repped this.
  24. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    The concept that we failed last cycle due broadly to MLS players refusal to challenge themselves abroad is misguided. The players mentioned played in MLS because that’s their approximate level - it seems pretty clear that they’re not major league level. It’s also no longer true that there’s no competition for playing time, particularly for attackers.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m among BS’s biggest supporters of pushing one selves but once you get in your mid 20s, playing time is key and you can see that our players belong in the level they’re playing at.

    Ps, besler was probably the most consistent player for the USMNT during the last cycle.
     
    An Unpaved Road and Pragidealist repped this.
  25. schrutebuck

    schrutebuck Member+

    Jul 26, 2007
    One obvious footnote from the MLS final is that Tata Martino is only the second manager from outside the US system to win the league. Gary Smith leading Colorado to an unlikely victory in the 2010 playoffs is the only other manager to do it.
     
    Burr repped this.

Share This Page