Rob Stone: US Manager shortlist is Ramos, Tata Martino, Marsch, Berhalter, Friedel, Osorio & Vermes.

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by soonertony, May 5, 2018.

  1. USOutlaw16

    USOutlaw16 Member+

    Green Bay Voyageurs
    United States
    Jan 22, 2011
    On the Gringo Wall of Shame
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    As upset as I am about the process for hiring him, better to be frustratingly late than to have Dave Sriracha Sauce be the manager for the Gold Cup.

    I do not envy Berhalter's position at all. He's got a little over six months before the Gold Cup, and not many friendlies to really get an idea of what will work and what won't.

    Regardless, I'm just thankful that there will still be plenty of time before qualifying starts for Berhalter's system to really set in. He may not be the best hire, but he's the right one IMO.
     
  2. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    You are absolutely right about MLS academies (I assume you are talking about European teams signing players from their academies). I wasn't thinking of them. Any academy/club that is completely free, in my opinion, should have the right to solidarity payments.

    I was thinking only of the club to MLS pathway. I believe most non MLS academy clubs are pay to play. Maybe I am mistaken? I am aware that some players are on scholarship and that would tend to lean toward a net expense but even that is somewhat debatable. first, the clubs are for profit...I think that is pretty clear and having better players leads to better won lost records which leads to better profits. There is a certain intrinsic value that clubs gain by having top scholarship players that improves their bottom line. The scholarship is not as simple as a benevolent gift (in most cases).

    Additionally, how do you treat the payments made by the typical player at a young age before the scholarship? Let's say, hypothetically, that a player pays full price until the age of 12 and then goes on scholarship at 13 before signing a professional contract at 17. Assuming his parents paid full price from the age of 6 to 12 before the scholarship kicked in how much did the club lose? Did they break even? Did they actually make a profit overall? Should the team get the full solidarity payment? half?
     
  3. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I really wouldn't expect many...if any pay to play clubs switching to free due to the incentive of solidarity payments. I believe it would only occur at the highest levels...ie professional, primarily MLS academies. The only way that I see it being possible for a p2p club to convert to free would be in cooperation or by merging with a professional team (USL for instance)
     
  4. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Donovan?
    Holden?
     
  5. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    So what's the minimum expected to consider this Gold Cup a success?

    This is going to be an A-teams Gold Cup. In 2007 we won it with Bob, and four years later in 2011 we lost in the final, which was grounds for dismissal of said Bob.

    In 2015 we didn't even make the finals but for whatever reason that was not grounds for dismissal for Klinsmann.

    So is making the semis the current objective? It seems to be enough of late to keep the job.
     
  6. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I want to feel good about the team. That means that I will feel they are a better team in 2019 than in 2018 and it will mean that we are doing a decent job of building a roster and developing an identity.

    I don't expect us to be a finished product by that time and as a result, I will be somewhat less interested in results than previous Gold Cups. If we lose to a bad Jamaican team or Haiti etc I will consider that unacceptable but losing late to a top team like Mexico or Costa Rica would be disappointing but not the kiss of death if they show well. 0-4 would not work.
     
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  7. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    United States
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But Kagawa, Honda and Kiyotake left J-League in the mid 00s, before the USSDA, when their American peers would have been playing college soccer.
     
  8. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We're talking attackers developed by MLS by 20.

    I think MLS doesn't play a lot of young attacking players, and in particular, spends its money there. Rarely do they take someone either from their youth academies, or as a teen, and develop them into a professional, either in Europe or in MLS.

    I think that's often why guys like Soto leave. MLS teams put half of their budget into their front 3 or 4, pay their attacking prospects a pittance, and can't or won't develop them.

    For a defender, like Glad, EPB, Bello, plenty of development there. Rarely are MLS teams going to spend on their defense when they can get roughly the same production out of someone making 50-100K. Plus, I think the bar for skill level for a defender is far lower, so you'll have a greater supply of defenders out there.
     
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  9. chad

    chad Member+

    Jun 24, 1999
    Manhattan Beach
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You think Wil Trapp was Sarachan's idea? Ok.
     
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  10. Editor In Chimp

    Editor In Chimp Member+

    Sep 7, 2008
    I don’t know that I’d give MLS credit for LD but Holden was never better than Dempsey. Plus didn’t Stu start out at Sunderland and got beat up in a bar or something leading to him ending up in Houston?
     
  11. Burr

    Burr Member+

    Boca Juniors
    Argentina
    Jul 8, 2014
    Tampa, FL
    Club:
    FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed. We should only be losing to those two, and not get embarrassed. We need to feel like we are top 3 for the hex.
     
  12. Editor In Chimp

    Editor In Chimp Member+

    Sep 7, 2008
    Everyone knows journalists from Europe are tougher; our journalists need to go over to there, and get yelled at in grocery stores by players when they write an inaccurate article so they toughen up.
     
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  13. bungadiri

    bungadiri Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 25, 2002
    Acnestia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Given this, I've reopened the "Berhalter Hired" thread. I'm thinking of closing this one in order to give the other one a fresh start, but I'd like to include some of the topics begun here in the last couple of days (e.g. players in Europe, Parkhurst's comments), as they are pertinent and have generated some interest.
     
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  14. The Foo Fighter

    The Foo Fighter Member+

    Mar 15, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ready for a new era.

    Let's get it. Time will tell if this is a good appointment.
     
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  15. Master O

    Master O Member+

    Jul 7, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm skeptical. He'll probably be just as incompetent as the last two coaches. This is USSF we're talking about here. They can't do anything right.
     
  16. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    it's so obvious now who's idea that was - and it was a disaster!

    wanna be optimistic but I'm not.
     
  17. smokarz

    smokarz Member+

    Aug 9, 2006
    Hartford, CT


    Agreed

    Let's put this one to bed.
     
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  18. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Not saying he was. Just saying he improved. He did ok in the Premier league. Was he ready for the Premier league when he joined Houston? As far as Donovan is concerned, it could be argued that he spent his entire career (other than a short time in Europe) in MLS and he wasn't a finished product when he got to MLS so MLS gets at least part of the credit. It could also be argued that Donovan was somehow unique in the sense that all or most of his development gets credited to Donovan himself. If you compare the player he was when he went to Everton and the player he was when he joined MLS, was he better after the years in MLS? I think so. Who gets the credit? If we are assigning credit to leagues...MLS gets some of that.
     
  19. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    Actually, I understand that but ignored it in my post because I believe that is an extremely unfair criteria in this case.

    I chose Holden, in particular, because he wasn't ready for the premier league when he joined Houston and went to Europe where he was immediately successful. (he wasn't even an immediate starter in Houston if I remember correctly)

    1. if a league is good at developing, than players should improve during the time that they are in the league. We would obviously expect young players to improve more than older players but demonstrable improvement is the key.
    2. MLS, for most of it's existence was not at all set up to develop players before the age of 20. Almost 100% of the source for US players was from the college draft. If MLS is not starting with players younger than 20, how can they be marked down for not developing them by the age of 20? That would be like a University being marked down for not properly educating 15 yr olds.
    3. The academy system is now in place and USL is now starting to be developed to the point where MLS teams can be judged on how they develop young talent but if you are going to judge them only on those that signed with MLS, that is a bit unfair to ignore those that signed in Europe. Remember, you gave credit to the colleges...not MLS for players like Zardes who went to college first but at the same time ignored whether or not they improved. (Whether or not you consider Zardes a good player, the question should be did he improve in MLS and was it a significant amount?)
    4. MLS has a poor record of developing top American attacking talent but does anyone? What did Europe do for the top attackers? Kirosvki was considered a top talent by Manchester United and spent virtually his whole time in Europe. What about Adu? How much did Altidore grow in spain? England? The reality is that there is a saying..."garbage in...garbage out". I'm not saying those players were garbage but that the input wasn't world class. Our current young players seem to be on a higher level and we will see how they develop...in Europe and in MLS.
     
  20. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    You are not wrong. It just seems to me that this year has been different and maybe a sign of things changing. If things wrap up We will have sold four players for millions to big teams. That is fabulous.
     
  21. KALM

    KALM Member+

    Oct 6, 2006
    Boston/Providence
    I've seen some variation of this sentiment expressed repeatedly over the past few pages.

    I'm curious though. Is this really any different than the situation Bob Bradley was in when he was brought in at the beginning of the 2010 cycle? If I recall, Bradley hadn't even been announced as interim manager by this point in 2006, and he similarly only had a couple friendly camps to prepare for the 2007 Gold Cup. He was also inheriting a team coming off an unsuccessful cycle, and one that had lost several major components of its spine (with Pope, Reyna, and McBride all retiring, and Keller, Mastroeni, and Lewis near the end of their careers as well).

    I don't really agree that Berhalter is being put in an especially unusual or bad position right now.
     
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  22. gunnerfan7

    gunnerfan7 Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Jul 22, 2012
    Santa Cruz, California
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #6147 gunnerfan7, Dec 2, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
    Okay, quite a bit to unpack, please bear with my response.
    I made it part of the criteria to bring our discussion in line with what the world would consider a "youth prospect". MLS uses a lot of college players that end up in the league at 22-23, but while that may be "young" for MLS, it is not the age range of what the world would consider a "youth prospect".

    I also made the constraint of only "attacking" talent. Mainly because it illustrates the increasing issue of no domestic attackers in MLS. MLS has improved some CMs, CDMs, CB's, FB's, and GK's. It has not improved many strikers, AM's, or wingers. You're welcome to compile a list of defensive players that MLS developed, like Holden, if you wish.

    That is very low and flexible bar that you have set. Players can improve simply by training in a professional environment. In fact, it's basically assumed that, if you're not injured, you are improving as a player!

    The real question is two-fold.

    One, are players being improved to a high standard?
    Two, are players being developed so that their potential is maximized?

    One is useless without the other. It does MLS no good if they "develop" a player to USL-Two quality, even if they "maximize" his potential, because that's simply a damning indictment of the scouting. It does no good if MLS takes a player and gets them to be a good MLS player if their ceiling is actually Barcelona, because either the player is stagnating, or coasting on raw talent and not actually receiving positive development from MLS at all. And naturally, it is doubly bad if a player is not developed to his potential, and he's ultimately not good enough because of it.

    So, are MLS players being improved to a high standard? I don't really think so. MLS is far off of many leagues in Europe, particularly on the mental side of the game with tactics and speed-of-thought. It's the speed of thought that helps players reach the highest levels, and that's the area that MLS needs the most help with.

    Are players being developed so that their potential is maximized? Sadly, this is also not true in MLS. There is a massive, gaping development black hole in the league, whereupon a player reaches his mid-twenties (24-28), the prime of his career, and fails to improve. Once a player reaches that age and has not left, the assumption is that his game will not improve much, and 90 percent of the time that is a correct assumption.

    Team expansion, bigger budgets, and larger rosters. Most of the top teams in the league are expansion teams. 11 of the 23 teams currently in the league were created after the 2007 creation of the USSDA and MLS Academies. MLS academies have had over a decade, hundreds of millions of dollars, and thousands of teenagers. Even earlier, they were allowed to play teenagers, even if it wasn't set up and codified in a system, like it is today. The fact that they didn't scout high school/travel teams, and relied on colleges to produce players is not my fault, and is arguably damning of MLS itself. Although, I take that back slightly, I'm aware finances were very tight in the early 2000's, probably tough to start youth teams when you're dealing with contraction and expansion.
    Well, and this may not be as straight an answer as you would like, but basically, I think this speaks to the complexities of player development in this country.

    The way that I see it, most players play for various travel/DA teams. They may be affiliated with MLS, but most of them aren't. As far as MLS's impact on youth soccer in the US, they are still only a small part of the overall soccer market, that's without mentioning the non-registered players. So, MLS isn't "developing" most youth players, which I suppose is fine, this is a big country.

    Out of the millions of youth players in the US, the players that MLS thinks are the best are signed to HGP contracts or leave for Europe. The ones that don't sign HGP contracts or leave, for whatever reasons, go to college.

    In the end, the vast majority of the HGP's and college signees never play much in MLS. Either we never produce any talent of note whatsoever, or MLS scouting is terrible, or MLS is terrible at maximizing talent (or most likely, a combination of the three). The young players signed to MLS teams are either good enough for MLS, or are cut fairly quickly. And my confusion stems from the many players who were outside of MLS academies as youth players, went to school instead of the pros, and then landed in MLS and played well.

    How much credit does LAG get for "developing" Gyasi Zardes, who started over 20 games his rookie year? He clearly left college MLS-ready, so we certainly can't credit LAG for getting him to that point. Then, his career ceiling is as a solid MLS player. How much of that is MLS, and how much of that is just Gyasi's talent and development up to 2013?

    How much credit do the New England Revolution get for developing Clint Dempsey? He was outside of MLS, then spent 3 years at Furman. When he got to MLS, he was Rookie of the Year, starting 23/24 games. So, MLS once again didn't make him an MLS-level player. Then, once he was there, how much of his future success is attributable to his time in MLS? He spent 3 years at NE, then 7 in the EPL in is prime. MLS is no-doubt a part of his success, but it's equally true that Fulham shaped him dramatically. Then again, his last 5 years at Seattle were part of a positional shift into a CF, is that just a natural result of age/declining speed, or is he still "developing" in MLS?

    And what's more, with his great career, how was it that he didn't have any contact with MLS until his early 20's? Sure, MLS wasn't set up like today, clearly. But we've got lots of historical NT stalwarts that spent their entire youth careers outside of MLS, up to their early 20's. How much of their success is MLS's fault, and how much is the result of the preceding 20-ish years, because clearly these guys had talent.
    I don't think MLS is good at developing any attacking talent of any nationality.

    They have access to the US player pool, and this is the NT forum, so obviously we're focused on Americans, but I think they suck at developing attacking talent period.

    And I think the rise of European scouting of our academies means that it's not that they don't have the raw materials. The "garbage, in garbage out"-mentality only exists because of a recency bias with our lost generation of late-80's to early-90's talent. I think it's much more likely that we have always had talented players, but that scouting and development, once from colleges, but now falling on MLS for the last decade, has been garbage.

    I'm looking for MLS to step up on both counts.
     
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  23. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    #6148 Mahtzo1, Dec 2, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
    While I agree that a 23 year old player is not considered a youth player anywhere in the world, my point is simply that because MLS, until recently, has not been set up to develop the youngest players. You do acknowledge the issue of finances but I believe it is underestimated and also underestimated are the difficulties inherent to starting from scratch a development system. While it was possible for MLS to sign teens earlier (Adu, Convey, Bradley, Hyndman etc) I think you underestimate the general readiness of the teens at that time to integrate into a MLS team lacking any developmental infrastructure. A relative few did it but it was not the rule. At the time, European teams had the infrastructure in place and far more resources for scouting etc and it was legal for them to sign teens (England has always been problematic) but how many were successful? Obviously MLS was not successful either. My point is not that MLS was good at the job but the reality is that they weren't even trying to do the job. Just as Universities are not trying to educate 15 year olds. (the occasional genius enters into college at 12 or 14 or whatever but it isn't the general rule).

    I have not problem with the attacking constraint. I think it is a bit narrow but that's your choice. While I would agree that Holden wasn't exactly a #10, I don't think he was purely a defensive mid either. If I remember correctly he was pretty dynamic in the Premier league. Of course my memory may be failing me there. I considered him enough of an attacking player to include him.

    I think that is to be expected when there is no development system in place. At this time, there are still only a few teams that are embracing youth development and some have been at it a very short time. My guess is that the phenomenon that you mention will lessen over time. It is analogous to the European player working his way up from a pub team to the top division in their country...it happens but is rare because ALL of the top teams have youth teams. In MLS, only some of the top teams really participate and the size of our country doesn't make it very easy for 23 teams to cover fully anywhere close to all of the players.

    When referring to players that are in the academy but do not sign, those that leave for Europe are the ones I had in mind. I'm not that familiar with many of the players but I believe that any player that was in an MLS academy (when I say in an academy, I do think it is important that they were in the academy for a significant time period...not just momentarily). A perfect example is McKennie...he may not fit the attacking constraint but he is one that MLS definitely had a hand in developing.

    When I said that they need to be improving, I wasn't referring to any criteria to judge the quality of the development only that if a team or league is good at developing players that is what they should be judged on. In my Holden example, the question is did they do a good job of developing him? The answer very well may be that he would have been better if he had stayed at Sunderland but it shouldn't be that he was too old so he doesn't count. Zardes is a player I mentioned because, in my mind, he was a much better player after several years in MLS and his development in MLS should be credited to MLS. Obviously his development in College should not be. Whether Zardes had a higher ceiling that might have been reached in Europe is a different debate but that is an extremely difficult position when Europe hasn't had any real success developing our players either. As I said, the number of Americans that did well in Europe is small...when you limit it to attackers it is even smaller. I can think of Dempsey (I agree that he improved significantly under Hodgson, not as much under

    Again, if we had so many quality players in the 80's and 90's, and MLS was'nt taking advantage of it why wasn't Europe with the resources available to them involved? Our players weren't in MLS academies but they were in Colleges. The question is are the Europeans scouting our players now because they are better or because they are in MLS academies? IF they are better now, why are they better? is it because the academies have had a hand in their development? If they are only doing it now because they are in the academies, what was holding them back when those same quality players were in college and what did they do when those same quality players, in some cases, went to Europe...or was it that only the bad players went to Europe? Europe didn't develop many Americans...young or old either. That is a fact. There are a few that I can think of that did well in Europe. (Dempsey is probably the number one but there were a few others also...McBride and probably a few other obvious names I am missing). Either way, my point is that nobody...MLS or Europe has a good record at developing young talent. That may change now with the influx of better prepared players. Obviously Pulisic is doing well in Europe and although he was at a high enough level to immediately get significant playing time with one of the best teams in one of the best leagues in the world, he HAS improved (at least in my opinion), so Dortmund gets credit for some of his development. MLS gets none. Others will follow...how will you rate Reyna's development, for example, if he is successful in Europe?

    I appreciate your well thought out answers to my disagreements.

    Edit: one last thought...your last statement that you are "I'm looking for MLS to step up on both counts." (Scouting and Development) is pretty much my point. I think that now some teams are all in on development but due to the normal lag time the beginning of the academies isn't the time to start the clock. Even if the academies started up with all the necessary pieces in place and all the bugs worked out, real results wouldn't be seen until players that had been in the academy for several years. As it is, none of the academies began at full efficiency...they are improving but still have a way to go. The next few years, I believe, will tell us an awful lot.
     
  24. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    Yes.

    Holden ALWAYS had rotten injury luck.
     
  25. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Disagree.

    I've posted names and mins previously.

    MLS used to play young American attackers at a significantly higher rate.

    It also when accounting for inflation, made more money off young Americans than it does presently. 2003-08 was MLS' peak in regards to developing Americans.

    The investment in foreign attackers has put a road block on front of domestics. Gone are the days of Landon, EJ, Convey, Beasley, Jozy, etc, getting major mins as teen attackers.

    Now due to the top heavy investment model you'll see a few young mids and defenders getting regular mins.
     
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